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View Poll Results: Source of proto-Indo-European language

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  • R1a

    19 30.16%
  • R1b

    21 33.33%
  • Cucuteni-Tripolye

    8 12.70%
  • Caucasus-Mykop

    15 23.81%
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Thread: Where did proto-IE language start?

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    Deleted, not on the subject.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 20-06-15 at 02:06.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    QUOTE=LeBrok;460357]Good point, it does suggest bigger influence of Mykop culture.

    What if Cucuteni gave Yamnaya farming and language and Mykop metallurgy and other technology. Vu a la, Yamnaya bronze age package.[/QUOTE]

    Yet it's the language that has to have come into contact with Kartvellian, and, more importantly, Uralic. Given that, the steppe is still more likely than the Balkans, in my opinion.

    Not that there aren't linguists who have postulated a Balkan "homeland", of course (Diakonov). It's just that it doesn't satisfy that requirement.


    Even Renfrew's "newer" model doesn't fix that problem, in my opinion, because that posits Anatolian staying behind while the rest of the Indo-European languages dispersed into Europe and then onto the steppe. So again, no opportunity to be influenced by Uralic until very late.

    For the same reason, I don't think the Gramkelidze Ivanov model is very satisfactory. We also now know the genetics are against it. The gene flow seems to have gone from near Europe to Sintashta and then onwards.


    I sort of like the Holm model, although I don't know if there's any better archaeology for their proposed migration path for Anatolian than the Anthony-Ringe model:


    .


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Lebrok, as you said, I think the R1a and R1b have the "farmer" influence in common, be it genetic or linguistic influence. A lot of historians believe the Maykop were the ones who passed on their culture to Yamna, and the Z2103 marker imo could be a sign of the Maykop mixing with steppe individuals. It's been proven H is also a native European mtDna, and it's difficult for the Maykop to influence Yamna culture so deeply simply through bride exchanging.. I certainly believe the steppe had a lot of R1b1 hunter gatherers, but I find it difficult to believe it was the L23 kind of hunter gatherers, since L23* and M269* are found in the Middle East and Central Asia. If R1b in the middle east is a result of L23 downstream, you wouldn't be able to find these samples at the greatest frequency here.I'm most convinced by the IE movements being a migration along the Danube of Indo-Europeniazed Cucuteni farmers by Yamna individuals (massive founder effect in CE/WE which can only be supported by farming), and R1a possibly being a Indo-Europeniazed (by L23*/Z2103*?) Uralic marker, since we have linguistic evidence that Uralics were in contact with IEs. I certainly think this theory would be helped if all R1b in CW would be L23*/Z2103*.It could also be that people waiting for L51 to show up in Western Yamna (non-Cucuteni) be right, but genetics has shown that history is much much more complex than we think it was.

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    Thanks for the article. So the debate goes on. :)

    Renfrew is now on his third model, I think. This one would seem to posit proto-Indo-European or pre-proto-Indo-European south of the Caucasus, and "Anatolian" speakers staying behind while the rest go up onto the steppe, yes?

    Sort of like this:
    h

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Turks nomads replaced Greek farmers :P
    Yes, in same way IE introduced their language over farmers of Europe. However they were no hunter-gatherers. In Yamnaya we have situation of farmers meeting hunter-gatherers.


    Hungars nomads only elite (!) replaced whatever IE was spoken by local farmers.
    I think Magyars came from European part of Russia, and they might have been farmers already. Definitely not HGs.

    PIE nomads replaced whatever was spoken by Neolithic farmers.
    Yes, exactly, but they PIE were already farmers/herders, not hunter gatherers.

    Edit: Arab nomads replaced whatever was spoken in wide territories..
    Yes, but again they were no hunter gatherers. They were herders with huge admixture of NEF.

    I'm not sure if there is even one known example of farmers learning hunter gatherer language.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Yet it's the language that has to have come into contact with Kartvellian, and, more importantly, Uralic. Given that, the steppe is still more likely than the Balkans, in my opinion.

    Not that there aren't linguists who have postulated a Balkan "homeland", of course (Diakonov). It's just that it doesn't satisfy that requirement.


    Even Renfrew's "newer" model doesn't fix that problem, in my opinion, because that posits Anatolian staying behind while the rest of the Indo-European languages dispersed into Europe and then onto the steppe. So again, no opportunity to be influenced by Uralic until very late.

    For the same reason, I don't think the Gramkelidze Ivanov model is very satisfactory. We also now know the genetics are against it. The gene flow seems to have gone from near Europe to Sintashta and then onwards.


    I sort of like the Holm model, although I don't know if there's any better archaeology for their proposed migration path for Anatolian than the Anthony-Ringe model:
    Definitely I agree, IE culture and language consolidated in Yamnaya, either whole Yamnaya or in western part. I was just being inquisitive to find out where did the language, should we call it pre-proto-IE, came from. I have a hard time to imagine that language could have been of HG origin, for the reasons introduced in post 1. It is easier with cultural elements, as we can trace them to farmers from south, and also metallurgy to Mykop. Even the Cucuteni burned house horizon was spread way inside West Yamnaya, IIRC. So why should it be different with the language?
    I'm just hoping that we can find some clay tablets with some words on it in Cucuteni territory in the future. It could answer the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Lebrok, as you said, I think the R1a and R1b have the "farmer" influence in common, be it genetic or linguistic influence. A lot of historians believe the Maykop were the ones who passed on their culture to Yamna, and the Z2103 marker imo could be a sign of the Maykop mixing with steppe individuals. It's been proven H is also a native European mtDna, and it's difficult for the Maykop to influence Yamna culture so deeply simply through bride exchanging.. I certainly believe the steppe had a lot of R1b1 hunter gatherers, but I find it difficult to believe it was the L23 kind of hunter gatherers, since L23* and M269* are found in the Middle East and Central Asia. If R1b in the middle east is a result of L23 downstream, you wouldn't be able to find these samples at the greatest frequency here.I'm most convinced by the IE movements being a migration along the Danube of Indo-Europeniazed Cucuteni farmers by Yamna individuals (massive founder effect in CE/WE which can only be supported by farming), and R1a possibly being a Indo-Europeniazed (by L23*/Z2103*?) Uralic marker, since we have linguistic evidence that Uralics were in contact with IEs. I certainly think this theory would be helped if all R1b in CW would be L23*/Z2103*.It could also be that people waiting for L51 to show up in Western Yamna (non-Cucuteni) be right, but genetics has shown that history is much much more complex than we think it was.
    Absolutely, till the dust settles, we'll be dealing with few possible scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, in same way IE introduced their language over farmers of Europe. However they were no hunter-gatherers. In Yamnaya we have situation of farmers meeting hunter-gatherers.


    I think Magyars came from European part of Russia, and they might have been farmers already. Definitely not HGs.

    Yes, exactly, but they PIE were already farmers/herders, not hunter gatherers.

    Yes, but again they were no hunter gatherers. They were herders with huge admixture of NEF.

    I'm not sure if there is even one known example of farmers learning hunter gatherer language.
    Do you think proto-Finns Ugric was also farmers language?

    Edit: to not necessarily prolong discussion - No! All Proto-FU speakers have cognates only for hunter gatherer terms.
    And yet Hungarians (whom you call farmers?) learned the hg derived language. Even more tought it to some Central Euro farmers.
    Also I dont think having % of ENF genes is necessary to pass one's language. That is racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the article. So the debate goes on. :)

    Renfrew is now on his third model, I think. This one would seem to posit proto-Indo-European or pre-proto-Indo-European south of the Caucasus, and "Anatolian" speakers staying behind while the rest go up onto the steppe, yes?

    Sort of like this:
    h
    yes, this is possible
    but then it seems Renfrew has taken over the steppe hypothesis
    and now he's allready speculating what happend pré-PIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Do you think proto-Finns Ugric was also farmers language?
    Edit: to not necessarily prolong discussion - No! All Proto-FU speakers have cognates only for hunter gatherer terms.
    Great, the farmers didn't teach them hunting, I'm fine with that. But where is the rest of their vocabulary from? I mentioned few times that Yamnaya was the place were IE language took the final form. Meaning that not all the vocabulary came from farmers. There was HG substratum, I think.
    There is a possibility that FU tribes had a very slow and minimal contact with farmers around them that they retained their original HG languages. It might be a reason why FU languages are so different from one another.

    And yet Hungarians (whom you call farmers?) learned the hg derived language. Even more tought it to some Central Euro farmers.
    I don't think there is a consensus where Hungarian language came from, the Huns, the Magyars or other nomadic groups, so I won't argue about that. However the main point still stands, they were not hunter gatherers, but rather nomadic herders at that point, and possibly with some farmer admixture.


    Also I dont think having % of ENF genes is necessary to pass one's language. That is racist.
    I never said that it is necessary to have ENF genes to speak farmer language. I always said that farmer genes are necessary to be a farmer. If it comes to language, it is not necessary, but most likely that farmer language flows to HGs. If you have contrary examples, you are welcome to share with us. Just don't make it personal or emotional. I'm neither for it or against it, I'm just describing what I think is a most likely scenario, that's all it is. The parallel of language transfer is based on modern, well known, historical events.

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    Does anyone know if there is common farmer vocabulary, common metallurgy, or hunting vocabulary in IE languages?

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    Come one Hungarian language comes from proto-FU. That is science.
    Proto-FU was originally HG, that is also science.
    Modern Hungarians are farmers. That is a fact.
    Hence farmers do speak language derived from proto-HG language. Just like Estonian and Finnish farmers do.

    So, PIE COULD come from pre-PIE that was HG, learn few words from farmers and create PIE.

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    Le Brok as usually are creating non existing problems.

    It is my fault, because I was aswerd on his question which wasn't necesserly.

    Case is very simple: R1 = Indoeropean speakers.
    Last common stage of this languages that is Yamana stage.
    Yamna N and S = R1.

    That's all.

    LeBrok, you are showing yourself as a very reasonable man.
    This my statement - reasonable and correct - you don't like. Why?

    Because as modern "reasonalbe man" you prefar undefinable untouchable hipothesising from the far, far past, partialy maybe even fiction time.
    You have no clue for Cucuteni, any examples, no clue which gorup was speaking which language (Cucuteni, R1a, R1b) absolutly nothing - but you
    are calling your vast speculations reasonable, but my statement, which is historically, linguisticly and archeologicly correct, is unreasonable?

    Everything fine?
    Or maybe hatred for me blinded you so much?
    Last edited by Rethel; 20-06-15 at 15:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, this is possible
    but then it seems Renfrew has taken over the steppe hypothesis
    and now he's allready speculating what happend pré-PIE
    I'm curious - why jews had a such idea milennia ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Instead Basques-Caucasian links are sought for. If so, it does make sense to mark those as Neolithic Farmers - derived (at least for non-pro and Baltic biased like me). Because what else would such unity represent?
    I was looking for LeBrok's question of common IE terms, but found smthg that backs up my speculation (from wiki on PIE language):
    Proposed areal connections
    The existence of certain PIE typological features in Northwest Caucasian languages may hint at an early Sprachbund[9] or substratum that reached geographically to the PIE homelands.[10] This same type of languages, featuring complex verbs of which the current Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors, was cited by Peter Schrijver to indicate a local lexical and typological reminiscence in western Europe pointing to a possible Neolithic substratum.[11]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    I'm curious - why jews had a such idea milennia ago?
    I don't know what you mean, Rethel ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know what you mean, Rethel ?
    They puted the earliest stop-stage of Indoeropeans in Ararat.
    Pre-Urartu (long before Urartu) of course, before they spread.
    Thery called it North Babylonia. It was in some apocrypha.
    Probably it was based on interpretaion of Genesis.

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    Rethel

    The age of R1 is 19000 years
    http://yfull.com/tree/R1/
    Do You think that IE is so old? Is it possible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Rethel The age of R1 is 19000 years Do You think that IE is so old? Is it possible?
    Now 19!

    This datations are so quicky changeable, that it is simply silly :)
    I treat this only as a time-landmark and common ground for discussion.
    When I was testing long long ago, they claimed, that R1a is maximum
    10.000 years old. So, this guessing datations doesn't bother me at all...

    They need 4-6 thousands of years for only 2 mutations!
    And for this thousands of years what was? Only primogeniture line or what?
    They probably have no idea how it is long 1000 years, so they're ceating
    this thousands of years as ancient chroniclers in Egypt, Sumer or India.
    No one can check this so, there is no boudaries for their fantasy :)
    Fortunately at leat they are more strictly, when they're talking about historical era.
    Then, the "laws of nature" are usually totally different...

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    Rethel
    Excuse me I made an error. The age is formed 27700 ybp, TMRCA 22200 ybp
    I mean the Yfull site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The age is formed 27700 ybp, TMRCA 22200 ybp
    So it is even worse

    I was watching on R1a according to your date 19k.
    But it doesn't change anything

    In a few years it will be 50.000 or maybe 5.000... who knows...

    Ten years ago my ancestor was living 10.000 years ago.
    Know he lived 22k - maybe he has time machine?
    Pre-ancestor (R1) was more ancient - but I don't remember.

    They probably don't even realize how many things can be done
    through 12 or 18.000 years and how many generations lived.
    But the number is nice - the bigger, the better - this is probably the method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Come one Hungarian language comes from proto-FU. That is science.
    I'v e pretty much agreed with that, didn't I?

    Proto-FU was originally HG, that is also science.
    I agreed with this possibility too.

    Modern Hungarians are farmers. That is a fact.
    Of course they are. I thought you were talking about the times of language change.

    Hence farmers do speak language derived from proto-HG language. Just like Estonian and Finnish farmers do.
    We all speak languages derived from HG. There were only HGs in Paleolithic and further in time. We are talking about a language change. This takes place in certain period in time. We need to concentrate only on this period in time to understand the process, or to be able to analyze it. Otherwise we all speak HG language, are Africans and belong to haplogroup A.

    So, PIE COULD come from pre-PIE that was HG, learn few words from farmers and create PIE.
    Have it your way, but I believe it was other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I was looking for LeBrok's question of common IE terms, but found smthg that backs up my speculation (from wiki on PIE language):
    Proposed areal connections
    The existence of certain PIE typological features in Northwest Caucasian languages may hint at an early Sprachbund[9] or substratum that reached geographically to the PIE homelands.[10] This same type of languages, featuring complex verbs of which the current Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors, was cited by Peter Schrijver to indicate a local lexical and typological reminiscence in western Europe pointing to a possible Neolithic substratum.[11]
    Doesn't Neolithic substratum mean farmer substratum, or they just meant Neolithic as description of time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, this is possible
    but then it seems Renfrew has taken over the steppe hypothesis
    and now he's allready speculating what happend pré-PIE
    Such a proposal has its appeal in terms of the culture from what we know of the archaeology, and it may turn out that the genetics would support it, but I'm not aware of anything published by a linguist that fleshes it out.

    The Anatolian languages staying in Anatolia would explain the problems that the Anatolian languages present. I know you're aware of all of the following, but for those who aren't:

    From Mallory: "Twenty-first century clouds over the Indo-European homelands."
    http://jolr.ru/files/%28112%29jlr201...145-154%29.pdf

    "The essetial argument as it is normally presented is that Anatolian lacks a considerable number of features that would characterize Brugmanian Proto-Indo-European (aorist, perfect, subjective, optative, etc.; Fortsom 2004, 155) and, therefore, its links with an earlier continuum must have been severed before Proto-Indo-European (or the rest of the Indo-Europen languages) developed in common. This can essentially be explained in one of two ways:

    l. The ancestors of the Anatolian languages migrated from the homeland of the proto language before it developed common Indo-European features. In this model Anatolian would have preserved an archaic structure while the ancestors of the other Indo-European still remained together and evolved later stages of Indo-European.

    2.The ancestors of the Indo-European languages migrated from the homeland of the proto-language. Here it is proto-Indo European that moves off to innovate, while presumably Anatolian was left in the homelans to preserve its archaisms."

    Number 1 is the Baltic route model to which Anthony and Ringe adhere. I'm not sure they're right. I've combed through "The Horse, The Wheel and Language" and his claim is based on the archaeologically attested movement of what he claims were Indo-European people very early down along the narrow, western coastal strip of the Black Sea. I couldn't find any place where he shows further movement into Anatolia.

    Number 2 is close to the model that Renfrew now seems to be floating? If he believes that, retired emeritus professor or not, I wish he, or someone else for that matter would publish a paper fleshing it out. Otherwise it's difficult to give it much weight. I tried to read Grigoriev's tome on the archeology, but I have to confess that I stopped after awhile. The length was daunting, and turgid doesn't begin to describe it, although perhaps it's the fault of his translators. Can a more informed person explain his archaeological evidence for such a movement of people? Does he propose a movement directly north through the Caucasus, or is it around the Caspian on the east and then onto the steppe?

    Whatever the precise route, I could see it for the "precursor" language, but given the ties to Uralic, I don't think the Indo-European languages themselves could have spread in this fashion, particularly not if Indo-Iranian is held to have peeled off first. Also, the Gramkelidze Ivanov model suffers from the fact that a movement of "Anatolian" to the Balkans, leaving the rest of the language speakers to develop the language in eastern Anatolia before their counter-clockwise movement around the Caspian and then a movement of Anatolian back to Anatolia is, as Mallory points out, way too convoluted without any evidence to support it.

    Also, in order to go this route, wouldn't it have to be the case that people living 'cheek by jowl', i.e. in very close proximity to one another in eastern Anatolia would have to have been speaking very different languages, given that there were Urrartians, Hurrians in the area speaking very different languages, languages that are neither Semitic nor Indo-European. Unless, perhaps, these languages were later arrivals?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartian_language

    Anyway, this has nothing to do with the "Armenian" language, which Anthony and a lot of linguists believe entered Anatolia later and through the Balkans. Well, Ivanov et al leave open the possibility it, and Greek made a run along the north shore of the Black Sea, yes? This where some more ancient genomes will help as well.

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