Where did proto-IE language start?

Source of proto-Indo-European language

  • R1a

    Votes: 23 31.9%
  • R1b

    Votes: 22 30.6%
  • Cucuteni-Tripolye

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Caucasus-Mykop

    Votes: 17 23.6%

  • Total voters
    72
ok there is a division in 3 majors according sons of Noeh,
but missing the 4rth, the sea peoples,
why?

Because they didn't write about everything :)

Sea peoples this is Philistines.
So, they wrote about them.

cause even the story of Japheth was nothing more than the story of Iapetos,

No. Iapetos is the story about Japheth.

and we know Jews and Greeks met at Avaris Αβαρις city in Egypt,
but we see nothing for sea peoples in Bible,
strange isn't it?

No, it isn't, becasue this are some strange assumptions.

they knew Germans, but Sardinians?
also Jew origin from Abraamic heritage is from Ur of Chaldians,
do you see any detailed inscription about Indo-Aryan or Indians?

I see, you probably never read the Bible,
so I tell you, that Aryans are there too.
For example Medes and Persians.

they know more about Greek islands and Black sea, than Chaldean or Italy,
strange isn't it?
probably their knowledge were from merchants in Egypt or Phoenicia or Palestine,

Or maybe they preserved old tradition?

maybe 'inspired' by God

Finally :)
 
Well I do not speak any Slavic language,but from what I have read,as grammatical structure, Centum languages are very different from Satem languages.
I mean,I do not have any problems learning German or Swedish ,neither at learning Greek,however,I have a big problem,when I try to learn Slavic languages or Balto-Slavic languages.
Same about Albanian.
So I think the split between Centum and Satem is quite ancient,no idea when it happened,maybe it was even 5000 years before Christ,or even more old.
 
Well I do not speak any Slavic language,but from what I have read,as grammatical structure, Centum languages are very different from Satem languages.
I mean,I do not have any problems learning German or Swedish ,neither at learning Greek,however,I have a big problem,when I try to learn Slavic languages or Balto-Slavic languages.
Same about Albanian. So I think the split between Centum and Satem is quite ancient,no idea when it happened,maybe it was even 5000 years before Christ,or even more old.

Maybe because you alleready know one germanic language, and in germanic languages are many borrowings from romanic
languages and greek. In addition, they are rather creol languages with very simplified grammar and vocabulary. So, maybe
this is the reason, because slavic are flexion languages with more original and developed words than germanic?
 
I personally think the assumption Z2103 eastern Yamna samples being descendants of the R1b1* HG because of EHG components is about as ridiculous as modern Spaniards being descendants of the R1b1* Neolithic farmer because of EEF component. There is no way M269, L23, Z2103 all mutated within that short period of time in Volga within a 1-2000 year time frame. We have two R1b1*s scattered in two different sides of the continent in a short amount of time. The R1b1*s were a nomadic bunch with very different autosomal components.

This and nothing else. I always wonder how people use the r1b1* in EHG and EHG ancestry in Yamna as prove for an EHG ancestry of Yamna Z2103 while at the same time completely ignoring the R1b (V88?) in Neolithic spain with totally EEF ancestry. R1b is such an old Haplogroup by time it reached Iberia and EHG it's original aDNA could have been much deluded to very almost extinction.


My own feeling is R1b at least will be somehow connected to "Gedrosia" type ancestry.
 
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About PIE. I checked for hunting/fishing terms in circum-IE languages. In very short search that I did I could not find circum-IE terms for trap, fishing pole, net, fishing net, boat, ship, hunt. I am not sure if there is one for forest/wood. There is one for tree and oak.
So, language did not come from North.

Probably not from Anatolia, or farmer languages (those were Basquish, North West Caucasian-ish and are substratum to PIE).

It was from East.

Maybe I am wrong :)

edit: there is however Lithuanian/Latvian and Indo-Iranian (Sanscrit) common terms for fishing. So, our Satem ancestors fished together in rivers of Russia :)
 
About PIE. I checked for hunting/fishing terms in circum-IE languages. In very short search that I did I could not find circum-IE terms for trap, fishing pole, net, fishing net, boat, ship, hunt. I am not sure if there is one for forest/wood. There is one for tree and oak.
So, language did not come from North.
Interesting. One of clues telling us that IE less likely to be hunter-gatherer language or R1b or R1a folks. On other hand Cucuteni did a lot of fishing, so this vocabulary should be known to all IE, if language comes from them.
 
Interesting. One of clues telling us that IE less likely to be hunter-gatherer language or R1b or R1a folks. On other hand Cucuteni did a lot of fishing, so this vocabulary should be known to all IE, if language comes from them.


One thing what makes me think Maykop will be the missing link is this statement of the Allentoft team. "Maykop type of people inhabidet the Steppes until Cuctenis population became too large, collapsed and it's people migrated into Steppes assimilating into the Maykop culture and adopting their burial and other rituals." From this wording I tend to believe Maykop might be the link to PIE (at least PIE culture if not even more such as language) or to be more precise a Maykop/CT and some EHG fusion.
 
Interesting. One of clues telling us that IE less likely to be hunter-gatherer language or R1b or R1a folks. On other hand Cucuteni did a lot of fishing, so this vocabulary should be known to all IE, if language comes from them.
Cucuteni most likely spoke something in between Basque and NW Caucasus... Not the PIE.
 
This is what Mr Kortlandt speculated 1990:
...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium. [F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]

I am not sure how much sense it makes today, based on new findings. To me I can't recall anything contradictionary.
 
Cucuteni most likely spoke something in between Basque and NW Caucasus... Not the PIE.
We would need to assume that all all Neolithic farmers spoke the same language. It might have been true in Near East 10k BC, but not in late Neolithic or Bronze 3k BC. That is probably 7K years after they had split, and by end of neolithic, who knows what kind of mixing and expansion came with later waves with J, T and E people.

Having said that, establishing any similarities between any suspected Neolithic Farmer language (Etruscan and Archaic Sumerian included) and IE would definitely help the case that IE is a farmer language.
 
One thing what makes me think, Maykop will be the missing link is, was this statement of the Allentoft paper. "Maykop type of people inhabidet the Steppes until Cuctenis population became too large, collapsed and it's people migrated into Steppes assimilating into the Maykop culture and adopting their burial and other rituals. From this wording I tend to believe Maykop might be the link to PIE (at least PIE culture if not even more such as language) or to be more precise a Maykop/CT and some EHG fusion.

You as well might be right on the money. We have obvious Maykop influence over East Yamnaya and obvious Cucuteni influence over West portion. I'm sure both Maykop and Cucuteni farmers were incorporated into Yamnaya, which was already full of hunter gatherers. Actually at the time of Yamnaya these 3 populations were already mixed together. What we see in Yamnaya is the consolidation process into one IE culture and language.
 
We would need to assume that all all Neolithic farmers spoke the same language.
No. We would need to assume that those language had similar features (not necessarily same language) which can now be detected/speculated as substrate to PIE or as additional substrate to later Euro IE languages.

It might have been true in Near East 10k BC, but not in late Neolithic or Bronze 3k BC. That is probably 7K years after they had split, and by end of neolithic, who knows what kind of mixing and expansion came with later waves with J, T and E people.
Let's not use 3 BC, it was 4 BC when Anatolians left PIE.
Also IE languages 6k years after creation and mix with different people still share enough features to be classified without doubt as IE.

Having said that, establishing any similarities between any suspected Neolithic Farmer language (Etruscan and Archaic Sumerian included) and IE would definitely help the case that IE is a farmer language.
Today every language over 1 M speakers is a farmer language :D No need to build a case.
 
No. We would need to assume that those language had similar features (not necessarily same language) which can now be detected/speculated as substrate to PIE or as additional substrate to later Euro IE languages.
Do we have the research into this farmer substratum done? I suspect this being extremely difficult and at the end inconclusive.
Today every language over 1 M speakers is a farmer language :D No need to build a case.
I meant the first farmer's language, the ENF/EEF language.
 
It is difficult and inconclusive :)
Otherwise we would not have this discussion.
 
It is difficult and inconclusive :)
Otherwise we would not have this discussion.

Problem is because nobody can argue with high probability where PIE formed. Even there are proponents who think that PIE never existed. Also, there are proponents who try to expand PIE including more group of languages, Uralic, North Caucasian, Altaic etc.

Here is one paper which presents assumption about imposition Eurasiatic languages on Northwest Caucasian languages. According to author precursor of Proto Indo European is Central Asia about 7,000 BC.

The Origins of Proto-Indo-European: The Caucasian Substrate Hypothesis

https://www.academia.edu/10261406/T...Substrate_Hypothesis_final_version_June_2015_
 
Thanks Garrick! Good read and it looks like mainstream linguistics go that direction.
Now we need to find pre-IE cultures in Central Asia :)

I wonder how far back in time and place can modern linguistics and genetics go based on few puzzle pieces available.
 
Thanks Garrick! Good read and it looks like mainstream linguistics go that direction.
Now we need to find pre-IE cultures in Central Asia :)

I wonder how far back in time and place can modern linguistics and genetics go based on few puzzle pieces available.

We might pull something interesting off with super computer in the future comparing languages on huge statistical scale.
 
I think we already have powerful enough computers, it is lack of proper and wide accepted algorithms. But we will get there.. Or close.. :)
 
Because they didn't write about everything :)

Sea peoples this is Philistines.
So, they wrote about them.



No. Iapetos is the story about Japheth.



No, it isn't, becasue this are some strange assumptions.



I see, you probably never read the Bible,
so I tell you, that Aryans are there too.
For example Medes and Persians.



Or maybe they preserved old tradition?



Finally :)

ok you want a religious war?

I am a pagan polytheist, not a christian,

and I know much about mages and priests that you don't,

ok lets see

Sons of Ham gen 10
Pathrusites, Casluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites. !!! !! sea peoples were Hamites?
15Canaan was the father of Sidon his firstborn, and of the Hittites, !!!!! Hettits were Hamites?


sons of Japheth
The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras !!!!!! Meschech or Λευκοσυροι white Syrrians Leuko or Lefkosyrrians!!!!
The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah. !!!!!!! Ashkenaz sons of Japheth ???

The sons of Shem: Elam, Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram

from new international version,

which version you want?


so they knew θαρσεις and Ιωνες but what about Ur and Chaldeans?
 
Don't take the Bible too seriously. If Ham was African then he is most likely Haplogroup E. Guess who his father is? Right it is Noah so he is also Haplogroup E as are all the others Shem and Japheth. It is all bogus.
 

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