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Thread: Vikings in Portugal

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    Country: Portugal



    Arrow Vikings in Portugal

    I want to know what my forum colleagues think about this matter since it is something that not even portuguese know about or they do not care.
    Well I want to know the opinion of people here that know a lot more than I do about genetics and anthropology and than when they do I'll say what I have found that is somewhat interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    I want to know what my forum colleagues think about this matter since it is something that not even portuguese know about or they do not care.
    Well I want to know the opinion of people here that know a lot more than I do about genetics and anthropology and than when they do I'll say what I have found that is somewhat interesting.
    If you believe in the viking sagas , then Bjorn Ironside was the only Viking I know that landed in Portugal on his way to Pisa in Italy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Muns%C3%B6

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_Ironside

    I have no opinion if its true or part-true
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Country: Portugal



    c'mon give your opinions

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    One of my Great Aunts who has lineage from the Western Iberian Peninsula has distant Scandinavian.

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    Many areas with a significant known presence of Vikings, including Scandinavia, eastern England, and the Orkney and Shetland islands, have high levels of y-haplogroups I1, Q, and R1a, which are not common in Portugal. That said, I certainly think it is possible, and even likely, that Vikings did travel to Portugal and occasionally settle there, only not on a large scale, certainly much less than they did in England. I think that, as a whole, Portugal is more Celtic than Germanic.

    Do you have reason to believe that you might have Viking ancestry?

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    Country: Portugal



    You are right when you that Portugal has much less viking ancestry than england, normandy or even france as a whole, but only with a little exception of an area of the country that comprises today Pvoa do Varzim, Vila do Conde and Esposende(south part).
    That said Portugal has with almost all certainty more north african dna or even moorish as a whole but in this particular place I have described there is certainly a lot of viking ancestry that was for a long time enclosed in a comunity for some time (fishermen comunity proven by arqueological findings) , this comunities dna started after a while to spread inwards to the continent ( mainly to some citys in northwest portugal ).
    I have unfortunately no dna proof which is a shame but I intend to get it.
    There is something I don't think it is a coincidence that people that carry the surname "costa"or "costeira" which means a person that came from the coast, these people almost always (in northwest portugal) a very nordic appearence like two uncles of mine who inherited that surname from my grandmother and aa big family in my area by the name of costeira.

    Waiting for your feedback with my all respect for your comments and I completely understand your disbelief. I am not saying that these people will have for sure more scandinavian dna but I would bet a lot of money in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    You are right when you that Portugal has much less viking ancestry than england, normandy or even france as a whole, but only with a little exception of an area of the country that comprises today P�voa do Varzim, Vila do Conde and Esposende(south part).
    That said Portugal has with almost all certainty more north african dna or even moorish as a whole but in this particular place I have described there is certainly a lot of viking ancestry that was for a long time enclosed in a comunity for some time (fishermen comunity proven by arqueological findings) , this comunities dna started after a while to spread inwards to the continent ( mainly to some citys in northwest portugal ).
    I have unfortunately no dna proof which is a shame but I intend to get it.
    There is something I don't think it is a coincidence that people that carry the surname "costa"or "costeira" which means a person that came from the coast, these people almost always (in northwest portugal) a very nordic appearence like two uncles of mine who inherited that surname from my grandmother and aa big family in my area by the name of costeira.

    Waiting for your feedback with my all respect for your comments and I completely understand your disbelief. I am not saying that these people will have for sure more scandinavian dna but I would bet a lot of money in it.
    Hi! Only a big enough sample can provide a statistically reliable result, not personal impressions upon a small number, even if accurate; the surname (father's) transmission is like the Y-Haplo's transmission: it is not linked to all genom; so it would be necessary tu study hundreds of Costa names people before beginning make a rule and I doubt it could confirm your impression (or only N-W coastal Portugueses would have given this surname);
    and nordiclike appearance (blond head hair is not sufficiant for diagnose by the way, and a blond head haired man can be hairs mixed in other parts of his body) is not by force the proof of a Viking or Germanic origin; at a lower level, some Celts or Slavs could have produced some similar phenotypes or phenotypes giving the same impression; it's true that Minho region is fairer than the remnant of Portugal, even a bit fairer than Galicia as a whole (I ought to say "less dark" in fact), but have you arcehological prooves of a typically viking settlement in the area - keep in mind Sueves and Wisigoths passed through western Iberia too...

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    Yes the big problem would be to separate the viking dna from the suebi, the visigoths and even some vandali.
    I believe the best way to differentiate is that the germanic admixture from barbaric peoples will be more widespread with its peak in the countryside areas near the city of braga( the capital of the suebi) since it started to come in the early fifth century with the suebi while the viking admixture would have come in the early eleventh century and because of this fact it is less widespread and so in a research it might show up as a lot or not even show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Yes the big problem would be to separate the viking dna from the suebi, the visigoths and even some vandali.
    I believe the best way to differentiate is that the germanic admixture from barbaric peoples will be more widespread with its peak in the countryside areas near the city of braga( the capital of the suebi) since it started to come in the early fifth century with the suebi while the viking admixture would have come in the early eleventh century and because of this fact it is less widespread and so in a research it might show up as a lot or not even show up.
    As a fellow Portuguese and of the name of Costa, I also believe it to be possible, because of the Viking settlements here in the north of Portugal. There had been several raids for over 50 years. The mix of blood is not only a possibility but a certainty. It might not be as comon as moorish or visigothic but it is present.

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    Scandinavian DNA in Portugal HAPLOGROUP I1

    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    You are right when you that Portugal has much less viking ancestry than england, normandy or even france as a whole, but only with a little exception of an area of the country that comprises today P�voa do Varzim, Vila do Conde and Esposende(south part).
    That said Portugal has with almost all certainty more north african dna or even moorish as a whole but in this particular place I have described there is certainly a lot of viking ancestry that was for a long time enclosed in a comunity for some time (fishermen comunity proven by arqueological findings) , this comunities dna started after a while to spread inwards to the continent ( mainly to some citys in northwest portugal ).
    I have unfortunately no dna proof which is a shame but I intend to get it.
    There is something I don't think it is a coincidence that people that carry the surname "costa"or "costeira" which means a person that came from the coast, these people almost always (in northwest portugal) a very nordic appearence like two uncles of mine who inherited that surname from my grandmother and aa big family in my area by the name of costeira.

    Waiting for your feedback with my all respect for your comments and I completely understand your disbelief. I am not saying that these people will have for sure more scandinavian dna but I would bet a lot of money in it.
    Hi
    There is Scandinavian DNA in Portugal, I am Portuguese and have some percentage of Scandinavian DNA. Whether it was brought in by Viking invasions/settlements I don’t know. But it’s not at all uncommon.

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    My son-in-law, born in Minho, gets 8.8% Finnish with DNA Land, 8% Finland + 5% Scandinavia with Gencove, 6.6% Baltic with Eurogenes K36.

    But of course, it's hard to tell whether this share of northern blood came with the Lusitanians, the Celts, the Germanic tribes, or the Vikings.

    I'm not even sure Finnish equates Scandinavian in any way ; it may refer to some northern-WHG derived blood. Anyway, the data above is all I can contribute.

    Considering the wide range of possibilities, I would strongly advise against grounding hypotheses in phenotypical observations. Only way to know will be to get people to test. Then Y-dna and autosomal mix could provide clues.

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    Since i'm Ethnically related to the Portuguese i can say that in some DNA test i did get Finland but like around 2-5% but in other tests i didn't. like the rules in south Europe there is a large mixtures of different admixture of people. However since it would be low it would not affect your look (the blond might be the goths or others).

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it's true that Minho region is fairer than the remnant of Portugal, even a bit fairer than Galicia as a whole
    I can understand this since a lot (not all) of Galicians look very "southern European" not western. But north Portugal also follow this rule.

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    There's a few percent of Scandinavian and North-Western European admixture in parts of Portugal and Spain based on 23andme. This may mean nothing but if we consider the history of the based land then there's a high coincidence that this genetic footprint might be the signature of actual historic events happening in the past.

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    Suebi King

    Im Portuguese from Vila do Conde its neighbours of Povoa de Varzim , its 15km to Porto

    I Come from vila do conde mom and father side

    My grand father Paternal is Joo Andr Bicho, my Grand Mother Paternal is Anna Postiga

    My Grand Father Maternal is Joo Eusbio Da Costa

    My Grand Mother Maternal is Maria de Ftima Moreira De Castro Das Neves


    My haplogroup Y DNA is i-m253

    And thats very very very strange In myheritage i am

    35,3% Iberian (Portugal and Spain)
    33,5% North West European (France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg)
    11,2% Balkan (Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Montngro, Bosnia Hezergovina, Kosovo, Albania)
    8,7% North African (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt)
    7,2% Italy
    2,9% Jewish Ashkenazi
    1,3% Irish, Scottish, Welsh

    Im choked the Big North west Europe its high like iberian ...but if i have nordic ancestor and he mixted with people of portugal his nordic dna doesnt Big In his descendant...
    But 33,5% its more than one or 100 ancestor In the 400 at 700 years....
    Sorry for m'y english

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    I don't know, but I have an intuition that such a high (33.5%) Northwest European admixture must mean that the Iberian component is just not as comprehensive as far as Iberia is concerned, so that many if not most Iberian populations, particularly in Northwest Iberia (Porto is already near to Galicia), must appear as some mix of Iberian + Northwest European. You should try to find the myheritage results of other people from Northwest Iberia (North Portugal, Galicia) and compare them. I wouldn't be surprised if those labels are just not as precise as they purport themselves to be, so that in fact much "Northwest European" is found in Iberia since many centuries or milennia ago, but since it is more common in higher frequency in France or Germany it was assigned to that region, not Iberia.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree. In fact, the majority of that is probably French, since it's included in northwest Europe in this calculator.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    [QUOTE=Muhammad Isa;551472]Suebi King


    "my Grand Mother Paternal is Anna Postiga"


    És da família do Hélder? ;)


    -------
    My haplogroup Y DNA is i-m253


    And thats very very very strange In myheritage i am

    33,5% North West European (France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg)

    -----------------------


    Did you get any "Scandinavian" in myheritage?


    I got around 22%.
    Last edited by nuno77; 26-08-18 at 10:41.

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    I also have some (Northern) Portuguese ancestry and I scored some Scandinavian in the older version of MyOrigins, but it's disappeared in MO 2.0. I still score Finnish in many calculators, but I don't think it would relate to Scandinavian.

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    Well, I gotta say that when I started this forum I knew nothing about genetics. Now that I am a little more enlightened on the matter I would never create such a forum.
    My question was pretty much ignorant (and I know that a person who asks must be ignorant or he wouldn't have doubts in the first place.
    That being said, I asked that about three years ago so like everything my opinion on the matter of the vikings in Portugal topic is much more refined as is my English.
    My opinion nowadays and I must say that I do not speculate like three years ago. The matter about vikings in portugal is now clearer to me and to everyone who keeps an eye on scholarly news.
    The Vikings did found a colony between the rivers Cavado and Ave in northern Portugal, we know that because they left material remains (very little remains but still it's there), about the anthropoligal view that I used in the first place to ask my question, it is still the same, my family is pretty much what stereotipicaly northern europeans look like ( pale skin, light eyes and light hair).
    About the viking genetic influence on the portuguese population, it must be minimal except in the area where we know the vikings settled but still very little, I believe we could equate the viking admixture with the arabic admixture (since most moors were local or northern african) and as for calculators, they still need to be greatly upgraded to be at least comprehensive (for me the best one so far was 23andme but the only way we can have a trustworthy admixture calculator is to have thousands of samples for each supposed admixture.

    Now, to end this bad excuse for a forum I would like to say that if it were now I would never ask such a trivial question and I guess that is the reason that I don't comment often because most of the times I don't have anything pertinent to add to a certain discussion or I prefer to see what more experienced people in terms of genetics have to say i.e. older forum members that have probably "studied" genetics for more than a decade now.

    Not to bore you people anymore I will expose my conclusion. I believe that the portuguese population is mostly of iberian neolithic stock which later received the bronze age invaders i.e. indo-europeans including the celts then romans mostly from what is today italy then germanic invaders, then mostly berber north african invaders whose influence in the iberian genotype is still up to debate since we cannot know for sure if the north african present in today iberians is mostly neolithic or if the arabian invasion impacted that admixture heavily, in that regard my opinion is both although I have my reservations regarding the influence of the berbers in the iberian gene pool since most muslims ran away to north africa, then after that no major shifts on the genotype ocurred only with some influence from the rest of europe mostly in cities like porto and the presence of jewish or new christian conversos.
    I wish I have not been too dull but I get carried out talking about history since it is a passion of mine. So thank you for reading this, I guess :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by galon07 View Post
    I also have some (Northern) Portuguese ancestry and I scored some Scandinavian in the older version of MyOrigins, but it's disappeared in MO 2.0. I still score Finnish in many calculators, but I don't think it would relate to Scandinavian.
    Which tests/companies are you referring to?
    My Origins from FTDNA?

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    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...y_region.shtml


    Portugal
    I1 - 2
    I2a - 1.5
    I2b - 3
    R1a - 1.5
    R1b - 56
    G2a - 6.5
    J2 - 9.5
    J1 - 3
    E1b1b - 14
    T - 2.5
    Q - 0.5
    N1c1 - 0

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nuno77 View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...y_region.shtml


    Portugal
    I1 - 2
    I2a - 1.5
    I2b - 3
    R1a - 1.5
    R1b - 56
    G2a - 6.5
    J2 - 9.5
    J1 - 3
    E1b1b - 14
    T - 2.5
    Q - 0.5
    N1c1 - 0
    Any way of finding out how much of the R1b is U106?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    (...) Do you have reason to believe that you might have Viking ancestry?


    Of course... Even me in Balkans I have much more than this guy.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    My son-in-law, born in Minho, gets 8.8% Finnish with DNA Land, 8% Finland + 5% Scandinavia with Gencove, 6.6% Baltic with Eurogenes K36.
    But of course, it's hard to tell whether this share of northern blood came with the Lusitanians, the Celts, the Germanic tribes, or the Vikings.
    I'm not even sure Finnish equates Scandinavian in any way ; it may refer to some northern-WHG derived blood. Anyway, the data above is all I can contribute.
    Considering the wide range of possibilities, I would strongly advise against grounding hypotheses in phenotypical observations. Only way to know will be to get people to test. Then Y-dna and autosomal mix could provide clues.
    Depending on how you look at it, because in 23 and me or ancestry, you most see much Northern European, however if you look at GEDmatch calculators you will see all Portuguese have significant amounts of Baltic and North Atlantic, which represents genetic markers distinctly different from Mediternaian genes. By the way this North Atlantic and Baltic makes up 50% of the Portuguese DNA. Baltic is uniquely Germanic in origin and according to GEDmatch the average Portuguese has 10% of this Baltic marker. My best guess is most of that comes from the Suebi and Visigoths and maybe 1-2% from Viking Scandinavians and subsequent Scandinavian genetic overlap from the Germanic tribes that settled in 400AD. The Suevi tribe was known to be a more Germanic tribe than the Visigoths who were practically French by the time they migrated to Iberia. Remember that in 567AD the Visigoths declaired full integration and intermarriage between natives, 150 years later (4-5 generations later) the moors invaded and these same Visigoth-native decendents took the entire peninsula back.

    From the data from GEDmatch, we have more Northern European DNA from the Baltic than North African, not including the remaining 35-40% North Atlantic DNA that can be linked to the Celts-iron age peoples. It is largely misunderstood that Portuguese and Spaniards have much much more North and Western European DNA on average than people have previously thought. It is also largely misunderstood that the North African DNA in Portuguese and Spaniards is from the moors, when in fact, particularly to the regions of Northern Portugal and Spain (where the supposed North African ydna haplogroups occur at even higher frequencies) is almost entirely from neolithic migrations, 3,000 years ago. This should not come as a surprise considering the Reconquesta itself originated in North Western Iberia, and the idea of Moors somehow settling in this hostile territory is entirely contrary to history. Neolithic North Africans did however settle in the North West and survived in the isolated pockets and mountains of this region from the overwhelming migrations of Celts, but seeing as 5-10% is not much, they were a clear minority.

    What also cannot be ignored, despite how low, is the subsequent 1-3% Sub Saharan DNA observed in Southern Europe as a whole, but concentrated in South West Iberia. We know North Africans carry 10-20% sub saharan DNA. When you do the math and consider the 5-10% north African present in Iberians, 1-3% sub saharan makes mathematical sense. Particular for the case of the islanders, DNA exchange between locals and slaves may have occurred to some degree and contribute to the North African Sub Saharan residuals. We also know Brazilians and Cabo Verdan's settled in the islands and brought Sub Saharan DNA with them.

    Overall, Portuguese are almost entirely Neolithic Iberian and Celtic, with minor Germanic ancestry followed by ancient North African. Fun fact, we carry the most ancient Gene's in all of Europe. and when you consider thousands of years of civilizations in Portugal, we are the most diverse in Europe

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