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View Poll Results: Pick main hg of Cucuteni.

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  • E1b1b

    3 5.66%
  • G2a

    15 28.30%
  • I1

    4 7.55%
  • I2

    31 58.49%
  • J1

    0 0%
  • J2

    5 9.43%
  • N1c

    1 1.89%
  • Q

    0 0%
  • R1a

    6 11.32%
  • R1b

    6 11.32%
  • T

    1 1.89%
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Thread: What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    She might not be a typical Vinca. High WHG can be a sign that her HG mother, who was 100 WHG, was assimilated into farmer society.
    Just like KO1 in a Hungarian Neolithic village(Koros) was 100% hunter gatherer but all the others, and his descendents, were EEF.

    It doesn't absolutely mean that there wasn't more WHG in Vinca than in LBK, but I wouldn't go drawing any firm conclusions yet.

    The scenario might have been that when the farmers entered these areas, they mated with a few of the hunter gatherers in the area. With the passage of time, and their large populations, the EEF genes predominated.


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    I vote for I1

    I vote such cause mostly I1 is crossed with PC1

    just possibilities
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  3. #28
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    With regards to E-V13, as Maleth said, the ratio in Iberia is heavily skewed to E-M81, which undoubtedly mostly came directly from North Africa.

    Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

    In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

    There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

    Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

    This is a map of E-V13 distribution. Regardless of when it got to the Balkans, it came from the east. The flow into Italy might have been in the Neolithic, but a lot of it could also have been mediated by the Greeks from the Bronze Age on...


  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0

    If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.

    if there were EEF in K8 instead of ENF then the view might have been much clearer
    but that is the way it goes with admixture analyses ; allways some fogg around

  5. #30
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just like KO1 in a Hungarian Neolithic village(Koros) was 100% hunter gatherer but all the others, and his descendents, were EEF.

    It doesn't absolutely mean that there wasn't more WHG in Vinca than in LBK, but I wouldn't go drawing any firm conclusions yet.

    The scenario might have been that when the farmers entered these areas, they mated with a few of the hunter gatherers in the area. With the passage of time, and their large populations, the EEF genes predominated.
    there were HG along the Aegean and Adriatic coastal areas and in the Carpathian basin
    in mesolithic times, the are south of the Danube was uninhabited (only 1 mesolithic site found in Varna, that's all for the whole area south of the Danube)
    so I guess Balkan neolithic had much less WHG then Hungarian neolithic

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    With regards to E-V13, as Maleth said, the ratio in Iberia is heavily skewed to E-M81, which undoubtedly mostly came directly from North Africa.

    Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

    In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

    There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

    Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

    This is a map of E-V13 distribution. Regardless of when it got to the Balkans, it came from the east. The flow into Italy might have been in the Neolithic, but a lot of it could also have been mediated by the Greeks from the Bronze Age on...

    E-M123 expanded with the Semites, first known of them were Akkadians 3rd mil BC
    IMO E-M123 could be bronze age, not neolithic

    TRMCA for E-V13 being 4.4 ka looks like a bronze age expansion too
    looking at the map above, I'd go for an expansion from the western steppe followed by a secondary expansion in the Balkans, and a later more recent expansion along with Greek colonisers
    just guessing - we have to await more data

  7. #32
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    I am amazed that many here still do not understand that europe was already settled before the youngest Haplogroup marker, R1 , entered Europe.
    Many centuries of farming and hunting before any R1 came.

    You give the impression that all other markers waited outside of Europe so R1 can enter Europe first.
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  8. #33
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am amazed that many here still do not understand that europe was already settled before the youngest Haplogroup marker, R1 , entered Europe.
    Many centuries of farming and hunting before any R1 came.

    You give the impression that all other markers waited outside of Europe so R1 can enter Europe first.
    I'm sure nobody knows what the heck you are talking about?! Try expressing your thoughts again, and perhaps with a reference to particular post you don't agree with.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    E-M123 expanded with the Semites, first known of them were Akkadians 3rd mil BC
    IMO E-M123 could be bronze age, not neolithic

    TRMCA for E-V13 being 4.4 ka looks like a bronze age expansion too
    looking at the map above, I'd go for an expansion from the western steppe followed by a secondary expansion in the Balkans, and a later more recent expansion along with Greek colonisers
    just guessing - we have to await more data
    Sincerely I think E-V13 could have expanded for the most during Bronze Age, (I 'm tempted to put a first expansion before, at the late Cucuteni-Tripolye developments before other moves) but I don't see it expanding FROM Steppes, even Western, I see it rather INTO Steppes. I agree for later colonizations due to Greeks. That said, some of them were there around Mediterranea long before, no way to challenge it!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I vote for I1

    I vote such cause mostly I1 is crossed with PC1

    just possibilities
    I think that I1 is very likely to have had a generally more eastern spread at one point that it does nowadays, so this suggestion isn't a wholly unrealistic possibility. I don't personally think that Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in particular is the ticket to finding a lot of ancient eastern I1, but who knows?

  11. #36
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    Angela, I usually agree with almost everything you write, but not about the origins of E-V13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.
    Cardial was Neolithic, but E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it.

    In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.
    E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.

    There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.
    The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.



    Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.
    No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Perhaps pre-E-V13 crossed the sea and E-V13 came to existence in Iberia first.
    Via Gibraltar you mean? Pre-E-V13 (M78) is found in Eastern North Africa mostly and z1919 seems to have travelled via East route. We have some old Druze samples. (We do not have enough samples yet from these regions) All major papers and National geographic claim an Eastern entry to the balkans so thats the mainstream understanding at present. Is this definite? No but one can only reason things out according to present indicators. It seems we are now even coming closer to the fact that E-V13 has been mutated in Europe (Balkans). On the other hand although E-V13 is found in very low frequencies in North Africa (1 /2%) we dont have any ancient dna sampling from southern Spain or Southern Italy......and neither in Balkan proper for that matter. Until we have these samples at hand one can only draw a picture with the current data and understandings and probabilities. Surprises do happen and theories have been changed, but only backed with scientific evidence.

    There is also the fact once again (in the new Trombetta paper) there has been a confirmation of a separation of roughly 10000 years between the birth of M78 (in North East Africa) and E-V13 which sets a comfortable period for travelling out to much further geographical locations, so travelling up at eastern route (Natufian territory) is well within reason.

    See this map




    Notice this:-

    E-M78[edit]



    The most basal and rare E-M78* paragroup has been found at lower frequencies in Moroccan Arabs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics#E-M78

    (arabs as people who arrived from the Levant in more recent event and not Berbers)

    Notice also this:-

    On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
    Last edited by Maleth; 30-06-15 at 15:21.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Via Gibraltar you mean? Pre-E-V13 (M78) is found in Eastern North Africa mostly and z1919 seems to have travelled via East route. We have some old Druze samples. (We do not have enough samples yet from these regions) All major papers and National geographic claim an Eastern entry to the balkans so thats the mainstream understanding at present. Is this definite? No but one can only reason things out according to present indicators. It seems we are now even coming closer to the fact that E-V13 has been mutated in Europe (Balkans). On the other hand although E-V13 is found in very low frequencies in North Africa (1 /2%) we dont have any ancient dna sampling from southern Spain or Southern Italy......and neither in Balkan proper for that matter. Until we have these samples at hand one can only draw a picture with the current data and understandings and probabilities. Surprises do happen and theories have been changed, but only backed with scientific evidence.

    There is also the fact once again (in the new Trombetta paper) there has been a confirmation of a separation of roughly 10000 years between the birth of M78 (in North East Africa) and E-V13 which sets a comfortable period for travelling out to much further geographical locations, so travelling up at eastern route (Natufian territory) is well within reason.

    See this map




    Notice this:-

    E-M78[edit]



    The most basal and rare E-M78* paragroup has been found at lower frequencies in Moroccan Arabs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics#E-M78

    (arabs as people who arrived from the Levant in more recent event and not Berbers)

    Notice also this:-

    On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
    This is how I see it as well, since sailing directly from North Africa to Italy is difficult because the ocean and wind currents flow east. That's why even today so many of the refugees die in the water. Such a direct route was possible by the first millennium BC, so some of those other "E" clades could have come with the Carthaginians, for example, but the safest route, the one taken by Cleopatra, was still the Bronze Age and Neolithic Age traditional route of sailing east along the southern Mediterranean coast, up the Levant coast and then west to reach Sicily.

    It's not something that can be resolved without ancient dna, and hopefully we won't have to wait long for answers. We need some yDna from the Neolithic era Levant. I know they have a lot of Natufian material, for example. Autosomal too, of course. I also don't know what on earth is holding up the research from the Bean Project. They've supposedly been studying those mesolithic era bones from the Greek islands for years now.

    As for the map, I'm not sure about the sourcing of M-81. Given the autosomal results of the Berbers, it's possible that it branched off nearer to North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Angela, I usually agree with almost everything you write, but not about the origins of E-V13.



    Cardial was Neolithic, but E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it.



    E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.



    The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.





    No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.
    Well, it would be boring if we agreed on absolutely everything, yes? :) You proved me wrong about J2, since I said the earliest entry was probably late Neolithic, and it's definitely at least as old in Europe as the transition from Middle Neolithic to Late Neolithic, so you may be right about this as well. I just think that, as I said in the above post, sailing in the Mesolithic, or even the early Neolithic, from Tunisia to Pantelleria with your tool kit and supplies is not as easy as it looks on paper, both from personal experience and from what I know of the known sea routes of the past. I also think the snp trail of z1919 is interesting.

    Stranger things have happened, though, so I'm totally open to whatever the ancient dna shows.

    E-M78 might still have reached Greece and the Balkans by the Mesolithic, even if they followed the Levant coast from northeastern Africa via Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I know they have a lot of Natufian material, for example. Autosomal too, of course. I also don't know what on earth is holding up the research from the Bean Project. They've supposedly been studying those mesolithic era bones from the Greek islands for years now.
    That would settle or bring much closer a better understand of origins and routes.

    As for the map, I'm not sure about the sourcing of M-81. Given the autosomal results of the Berbers, it's possible that it branched off nearer to North Africa.
    I believe what we can tell with a certain amount of certainty is it has moved to North east Africa from where ever it mutated which was probably somewhere central in North Africa or even further South. Most of the E-m81 found in Middle east and South Europe could very well be to be much more attributed to recent migrations although one cannot exclude more ancient entries via Gibraltar into Europe. (that has been extensively discussed in some Iberian thread)

    E-M81 is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in North Africa, dominated by its subclade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago[2][33] or 13,900 years ago.[34] This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximatelya) (notice the difference from East to West North Africa. This is the opposite to E-78 (where E-V13 stems from) that moved to an eastern direction probably at a much earlier date) 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[33][35][36]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog..._(Y-DNA)#E-M81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    E-M78 might still have reached Greece and the Balkans by the Mesolithic, even if they followed the Levant coast from northeastern Africa via Egypt.
    Bulgaria could well be on the cards too

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    EV-13 having such a different distribution from the other E clades due to it being a Paleolithic/Mesolithic HG group would make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that we now have E groups in Lengyel and Sopot farming cultures in Balkans and Central Europe. If these turn out to be EV-13, then the HG theory would be rendered asinine. What surprises me is the Bronze Age expansion dating from TMRCA analysis.The valid theories so far are 1) A Neolithic expansion from Western Asia (probably from Cardial Ware). This is supported by the fact that it's found in Spain, and western Croatia/Hungary, if the new samples are proven to be EV13. These places match well the expansion of the Cardial Ware movements. We also have to keep in mind that most archaeologists propose TWO independent farming movements into Europe. So here could lie the EV13-J/G dichotomy. 2) A HG marker from Mesolithic times (N. Africa?). This is supported by the marker's relative scarcity in farming sites, and would gather more fuel if the Lengyel and Sopot samples are a different type of E.3) An Indo-Europeanized farmer group from Cucuteni that expanded into the Balkans during the Bronze Age (along with J2). These could have been the linguistic pre-cursors to the Hellenes, Phrygians, Thraco-Illyrians, etc... and would maybe explain the lack of the Volga-Yamna component in these IE speaking areas. This is supported by the very young TMRCA analysis that pinpoints to a Bronze Age expansion, it's distribution in European only areas, and IE speaking Middle Eastern places like Kurdistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    EV-13 having such a different distribution from the other E clades due to it being a Paleolithic/Mesolithic HG group would make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that we now have E groups in Lengyel and Sopot farming cultures in Balkans and Central Europe. If these turn out to be EV-13, then the HG theory would be rendered asinine. What surprises me is the Bronze Age expansion dating from TMRCA analysis.The valid theories so far are 1) A Neolithic expansion from Western Asia (probably from Cardial Ware). This is supported by the fact that it's found in Spain, and western Croatia/Hungary, if the new samples are proven to be EV13. These places match well the expansion of the Cardial Ware movements. We also have to keep in mind that most archaeologists propose TWO independent farming movements into Europe. So here could lie the EV13-J/G dichotomy. 2) A HG marker from Mesolithic times (N. Africa?). This is supported by the marker's relative scarcity in farming sites, and would gather more fuel if the Lengyel and Sopot samples are a different type of E.3) An Indo-Europeanized farmer group from Cucuteni that expanded into the Balkans during the Bronze Age (along with J2). These could have been the linguistic pre-cursors to the Hellenes, Phrygians, Thraco-Illyrians, etc... and would maybe explain the lack of the Volga-Yamna component in these IE speaking areas. This is supported by the very young TMRCA analysis that pinpoints to a Bronze Age expansion, it's distribution in European only areas, and IE speaking Middle Eastern places like Kurdistan.
    It's Neolithic, not Bronze Age in Europe.

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    For now we can make an educated guess that G2a were the original farmers. At the point when G2a developed farming package in Fertile Crescent and started to spread, we can make another educated guess, that the rest of haplogroups belonged to hunter gatherers. The uncertainty still exists where and when the rest of haplogroups were found and picked up by G2a farmers? From that point on every haplogroup (almost) started to grow and spread by and within farming communities.
    Sorry for stating the obvious but some people are missing this mechanism behind Neolithic success and explosion of existing and new haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    She might not be a typical Vinca. High WHG can be a sign that her HG mother, who was 100 WHG, was assimilated into farmer society.
    Just like KO1 in a Hungarian Neolithic village(Koros) was 100% hunter gatherer but all the others, and his descendents, were EEF.

    Oh, thank you Angela and LeBrok! This is great news, a 100% genetic hunter, who was a cultural farmer!

    Do you remember our discussion about hunter-derived DNA in agricultural societies, from this thread?:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...cape-of-Europe

    In that thread we argued whether one could become a farmer without being admixed by farmer DNA first.

    We argued about the sequence of events, chronology - whether pure hunters were first assimilated by farmer communities, learned how to farm - and only then, in next generations, they mixed with farmers; or whether they were first "raped" and only their genetically mixed offspring could learn how to farm.

    You claimed that all farmers found up to that point (when we discussed) - even if they had hunter Y-DNA or mtDNA - were autosomally not "pure" HG, but farmer admixed.

    I replied, that the reason for this was because finding a pure hunter in a farming community would be like finding a needle in a haystack, because they were going to be pure only during first few generations (at best), while their offspring in next generations had to be farmer-admixed due to intermarriages.

    Apparently they have just found a needle in a haystack, and it kind of confirms my point of view, you must admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    The scenario might have been that when the farmers entered these areas, they mated with a few of the hunter gatherers in the area. With the passage of time, and their large populations, the EEF genes predominated.
    Koros 1 (KO1) in the scatter plot that you've posted above, was a pure hunter, 100% WHG.

    Yet, his occupation was clearly a farmer. So he learned how to farm thanks to a purely cultural transition.

    He was a hunter culturally assimilated by a farmer community. A needle in a haystack that I mentioned.

    Only later, his descendants acquired EEF genes, since they mated with their EEF neighbours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Oh, thank you Angela and LeBrok! This is great news, a 100% genetic hunter, who was a cultural farmer!

    Do you remember our discussion about hunter-derived DNA in agricultural societies, from this thread?:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...cape-of-Europe

    In that thread we argued whether one could become a farmer without being admixed by farmer DNA first.

    We argued about the sequence of events, chronology - whether pure hunters were first assimilated by farmer communities, learned how to farm - and only then, in next generations, they mixed with farmers; or whether they were first "raped" and only their genetically mixed offspring could learn how to farm.

    You claimed that all farmers found up to that point (when we discussed) - even if they had hunter Y-DNA or mtDNA - were autosomally not "pure" HG, but farmer admixed.

    I replied, that the reason for this was because finding a pure hunter in a farming community would be like finding a needle in a haystack, because they were going to be pure only during first few generations (at best), while their offspring in next generations had to be farmer-admixed due to intermarriages.

    Apparently they have just found a needle in a haystack, and it kind of confirms my point of view, you must admit.



    Koros 1 (KO1) in the scatter plot that you've posted above, was a pure hunter, 100% WHG.

    Yet, his occupation was clearly a farmer. So he learned how to farm thanks to a purely cultural transition.

    He was a hunter culturally assimilated by a farmer community. A needle in a haystack that I mentioned.

    Only later, his descendants acquired EEF genes, since they mated with their EEF neighbours.

    I'm afraid you've missed the point. We have found no, and I repeat no example where a community of hunter-gatherers, upon encountering the early farmers, instantly or even quickly adopted farming. The cultural diffusion method of the spread of agriculture was incorrect.

    What we have found are situations like this where an individual hunter-gatherer, perhaps a slave, perhaps just one man who for whatever reason decided to join them, was adopted into the community. Eventually, because he was "outnumbered", if you will, by the genetic "farmers", his descendents were "farmers" genetically. That's why we have I2a and I1 farmers who are EEF. There seems to have been an absorption of a few women, too, but fewer, I think, at least in Central Europe, and if we are talking about the introgression of U4 and U5. There things stood for at least a 1000 years if my memory serves.

    So, what did the rest of the hunter-gatherers do, the ones who weren't absorbed genetically? Well, given the fact that we find so few remaining settlements, and, to my knowledge, no new settlements in the core areas, I think they might just have left. A few hunter-gatherers might have lived in inaccessible and worthless mountain land (to the farmers), but the majority were probably in the northern fringe and the Atlantic fringe, and I think there was a reservoir of them far to the east and in the northeast.

    Now, at a certain point Haak et al claim to see evidence of WHG "resurgence". It's my own belief, from when I did some research on that time period that it occurred once the farmers, now having adapted their "agricultural package" to the new environments and types of land, moved into outlying areas. I also think that it was a time of climate change and there was a movement south and west from some of the reservoir areas. When their way of life became more and more untenable some of them did enter into and were absorbed by farmer communities.

    I think part of the problem here is that some posters are simplifying the ideas presented, and in the process distorting them. I don't think LeBrok ever said, and I know I certainly never said that it was impossible for hunter gatherers to learn farming. That would be silly. After all, the first farmers in the Near East were hunter-gatherers, were they not? They weren't planted here on earth fully formed by aliens. The point is that hunter-gatherers the world over adopt farming with great difficulty, slowly, and often when they have run out of alternatives.

    I also think a good part of the WHG in some Europeans actually came from the east. The more pastoralist based society of the Indo-Europeans may have been a more attractive alternative for the hunter-gatherers. We have the example of the Australian aborigines who seem to have had much less difficulty becoming stockmen for ranchers than settling down to farm or learn a trade in the cities. I don't think that a mission type system like that used by the Spanish in their conquest of the Americas would have worked on the hunter-gatherers, although it might have been used to impose a sort of serfdom on the farmers.

    "Missions varied enormously in their economic and religious success. Some could not support themselves; others developed fertile fields and vineyards and huge herds of cattle. Virtually all successful religious conversion was among sedentary Indians who were easier to control and more adaptable to agriculture and herding. The few attempts to convert such warlike nomads as the Apaches and Comanches failed dismally."
    http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/a...ons-us-history

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Koros 1 (KO1) in the scatter plot that you've posted above, was a pure hunter, 100% WHG.

    Yet, his occupation was clearly a farmer. So he learned how to farm thanks to a purely cultural transition.

    He was a hunter culturally assimilated by a farmer community. A needle in a haystack that I mentioned.

    Only later, his descendants acquired EEF genes, since they mated with their EEF neighbours.
    He wasn't found in a proper grave to indicate belonging to the farming community, but rather his bones were scattered around the village. He might as well bin killed while stealing from farmers and was eaten by dogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    The cultural diffusion method of the spread of agriculture was incorrect.
    Royal Society doesn't agree with claims that the diffusion of agriculture was only demic. It currently argues for a mixed partially demic, partially cultural model - in some areas more demic, in others more cultural.

    "Demic and cultural diffusion propagated the Neolithic transition across different regions of Europe":

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...2/106/20150166

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post461156

    We also find an increasing amount of HG ancestry - both autosomal and uniparental - in Middle and Late Neolithic samples, compared to Early Neolithic ones. How do you explain the increase of HG ancestry in Middle and Late Neolithic, compared to Early Neolithic? IMHO more and more hunters were adopting farming, and the initial impetus of demic diffusion of Near Eastern farmers slowed down. In Early Neolithic times farming was spreading mostly via migration, but in later periods of Neolithic an increasingly larger role was played by assimilation of individual local HG groups into larger agricultural communities, and maybe also by adoption of agriculture by some of local HG tribes.

    More and more of uniparental markers previously thought to be brought in by Near Eastern farmers, now turn out to have been present in some groups of European hunters already in Paleolithic times. For example mtDNA lineage H - long thought to be brought into to Europe by Neolithic farmers, turns out to be Paleolithic (link):

    http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/201...-analyses.html

    However I have to strongly question your claim: "mtDna H is usually connected to ancient farmer populations, to the first farmers in Europe". That is simply not true.

    The oldest mtDNA H in Europe (it has been just made public) is a from a Paleolithic woman from Cantabria (Iberian Peninsula). Additionally mtDNA H has been unmistakably detected in other two Cantabrian Magdalenian samples (100%), in one Epipaleolithic Basque sample (33%), in one Epipaleolithic Karelian sample (11%) and in one transitional Meso-Neolithic sample from Franchthi cave (Greece). There are other less confirmed (HVS-I only) data suggesting also loads of mtDNA H in Epipaleolithic Portugal (Chandler 2005), Late UP Arif (North Morocco), late UP Andalusia, UP Britain and Gravettian Russia (Sunghir). In other words, mtDNA H was very possibly scattered everywhere in Europe except apparently in the north-central region.

    On the other hand Early Neolithic peoples were very low in their mtDNA H frequencies, much less than some UP populations apparently and certainly less than modern levels, with just around 25% of this lineage. It is true that mtDNA expands first (but not last) in Central Europe with the arrival of Danubian Neolithic but it's also true that this expansion cannot account at all with the formation of the modern mtDNA pool in that part of Europe, very particularly because its frequency of H is very low yet. See this.

    So for me mtDNA H was irregularly scattered among European hunter-gatherers, with populations ranging from near 0% (Central and North Europe) to near 100% (some parts of Iberia at the very least). Some of it was picked by early European farmers on their way to Central and Western Europe but a large part of it was actually distributed with the so-called hunter-gatherer backflow in the Chalcolithic, probably in relation to Megalithism and maybe also Bell Beaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    With regards to E-V13, as Maleth said, the ratio in Iberia is heavily skewed to E-M81, which undoubtedly mostly came directly from North Africa.

    Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

    In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

    There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

    Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

    This is a map of E-V13 distribution. Regardless of when it got to the Balkans, it came from the east. The flow into Italy might have been in the Neolithic, but a lot of it could also have been mediated by the Greeks from the Bronze Age on...


    I agree with Angela here, for E-V13: East Adriatic shores show few Y-E1b but great variance, even more thnan in Eastern Balkans. So an eastern mediterranean origin is more likely than a western one. I think it stays weak enough at Neolithic times before undergoing a demographic increase at bronze Age; it is stronger in Romania than stated, I think, about the 17%. I think it was present in Cucuteni-Tripolye long time ago.
    I don't vote for Cucuteni Y-DNA because as remarked Holderlin, the period is not mentioned. By example, Y-J1 was surely present at low level, but Y-J2 could be arrived for the most at Bronze time, at high levels...
    concerning others Y-haplos, I think Y-I2a1(b) and even Y-I2a2 could have begun to open their way into "high society" in N-E mountainous parts.
    &: I still have an eye on Y-I2a2 : I believe I heard of it in hungary in Vatya culture and in earlier Vucedol
    (if I don't mistake); some period of Vucedol was linked by some scholars to BBs origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    I also think a good part of the WHG in some Europeans actually came from the east. The more pastoralist based society of the Indo-Europeans may have been a more attractive alternative for the hunter-gatherers.
    This is true that a lot of HG (in this case rather EHG than WHG - EHG was quite different from WHG, because it was ANE-rich) was brought from the east by steppe people such as Yamnaya. But already before those migrations from the east, an increase of HG (WHG and SHG) could be observed in Middle and Late Neolithic. LeBrok argued that it was due to HG genes - especially their Y-DNA - being selected for. IMO that could be simply due to an increasing number of hunter-gatherers being assimilated into agricultural communities, and then exploding demographically, increasing in numbers (as farmers tend to do). If ~50 hunters learn how to farm, they will grow to ~1000 descendants in few generations.

    As for HG ancestry - it seems to me that calling all of it WHG is already obsolete by now. ;)

    We have learned by now, that there were at least three quite distinct types of HGs in Europe:

    WHG - western (Iberian-French) hunters
    SHG - central (Scandinavian-Hungarian) hunters
    EHG - eastern (Karelian-Russian) hunters

    There were similarities between them, but also differences. EHG, for instance, was ANE-rich.

    Both SHG and EHG were also lighter-pigmented than WHG. WHG were darker, if I remember correctly.

    WHG probably had more of Aurignacian ancestry (see Y-DNA of Kostenki 14, and then La-Brana).

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Now, at a certain point Haak et al claim to see evidence of WHG "resurgence". It's my own belief, from when I did some research on that time period that it occurred once the farmers, now having adapted their "agricultural package" to the new environments and types of land, moved into outlying areas. I also think that it was a time of climate change and there was a movement south and west from some of the reservoir areas. When their way of life became more and more untenable some of them did enter into and were absorbed by farmer communities.

    I think part of the problem here is that some posters are simplifying the ideas presented, and in the process distorting them. I don't think LeBrok ever said, and I know I certainly never said that it was impossible for hunter gatherers to learn farming. That would be silly. After all, the first farmers in the Near East were hunter-gatherers, were they not? They weren't planted here on earth fully formed by aliens. The point is that hunter-gatherers the world over adopt farming with great difficulty, slowly, and often when they have run out of alternatives.
    So we agree that the resurgence of HG ancestry in Middle and Late Neolithic was due to more and more hunters gradually learning how to farm. I have never claimed that it was a swift process without difficulties.

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