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View Poll Results: Pick main hg of Cucuteni.

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  • E1b1b

    3 5.66%
  • G2a

    15 28.30%
  • I1

    4 7.55%
  • I2

    31 58.49%
  • J1

    0 0%
  • J2

    5 9.43%
  • N1c

    1 1.89%
  • Q

    0 0%
  • R1a

    6 11.32%
  • R1b

    6 11.32%
  • T

    1 1.89%
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Thread: What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

  1. #76
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    Maciamo, the elite burial in Varna is ydna CT. The R1b boy is buried with no grave goods.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It got to be the way they defined EHG here. Before that we didn't hear about EHG in Balkans. Perhaps we have enough ancient samples for scientists to coin common admixtures to measure samples. I don't mind if there is EHG in balkan hunter gatherers, I just don't want to change my mind set with every paper.
    The WHG and EHG seem to have been in different niches, but then moved around, and at contact points there was some blending. The relative percentages varied over time.

    In the Ukraine, for example, there was a change from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic:
    "However, our larger sample shows the opposite – specifically that ANE ancestry decreases and WHG ancestry increases – as shown by the statistics D(Mbuti, X, Ukraine_Mesolithic, 218 Ukraine_Neolithic), which is Z=-4.9 when X is the Mal’ta 1 individual and Z=9.1 for 219 X=WHG (Supplementary Data Table 2)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Maciamo, the elite burial in Varna is ydna CT. The R1b boy is buried with no grave goods.
    I wasn't referring to Chalcolithic Bulgaria. Those samples are too old (c. 4500 BCE for the R1b and c. 4350 BCE for the CT) to have anything to do with Steppe invasions. That R1b is an old Mesolithic L754 (two mutations prior to P297 and three before M269) related to Iron Gates or Dnieper Donets, not to Yamna.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This makes complete sense. Old Neolithic/Chalcolithic cultures like Cucuteni-Trypillian and Varna in the eastern Carpathians and Balkans were densely populated and acted as bulwark against Steppe invasions. Therefore Steppe admixture levels in those regions are lower. EHG, WHG and Steppe admixtures in those regions probably progressed slowly over time by intermarriages with neighbouring HG and Steppe pastoralist populations.

    The samples from Croatia could be seen as part of the large-scale migration from the Pontic Steppe to the Hungarian Plain, which was an ideal environment for cattle pastoralists and horse riders. I have explained in my R1b history, in agreement with what David Anthony wrote, that the early Steppe incursions into the Balkans were raiding and pillaging expeditions that caused the progressive decline of Old Europe, but didn't leave any major Steppe settlements. Steppe invaders only took over politically and set themselves up as the new rulers in local communities, so that Steppe lineages would principally show up in elite burials like in Varna.
    I think, the first BA population of Bulgaria, in big numbers, were the ones of Cucuteni mix pushed south and west by big steppe migration.


    However the three Bronze Age Croatian individuals tested date from 1700 to 900 BCE, which is long after the Yamna-descended tribes passed through the Hungarian plain. Nevertheless some seem to have made their way south until southern Croatia (Veliki Vanik) and may have been the long lost tribe of the Illyrians. This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-Din and R1a lineages. Unfortunately, only one of the three BA Croatian samples was male, so there is only one Y-DNA sample and it belongs to J2b2a-L283. It's possible that a later Steppe migration that the one that founded Unetice brought J2b2a to the Dinaric Alps. Anyway these three individuals were undeniably Steppe-admixed and the J2b guy possessed a typical Steppe mtDNA (I1a1) also found in Unetice.
    This is interesting. Is it possible that these guys started migration in Central/North Europe and not in the steppe? From Tumulus culture and alike. Most of the movement could have been right after BA collapse around 1,200.
    Illyrians did come to my mind.

    Note that the sample with the highest Steppe admixture in the Balkans (I2163) is from Middle-Late Bronze Age Bulgaria (c. 1700 BCE) and belongs to R1a-S224. It is the only MLBA individual tested and he is contemporary to the Srubna culture, where he surely originated. This confirms that that Srubna was a predominantly R1a culture, as opposed to the earlier R1b-dominant Yamna culture and probably also Catacomb culture.

    Looks more Thracians in this case, or similar migration, this time more from NE Europe. Though I think Thracians most likely happened after BA collapse.


    [/QUOTE]NB: It's just a detail, but the samples tested are from the Trypillian culture, not Cucuteni. Although they formed the same culture, Cucuteni normally refers to the part in NE Romania and Moldova, while Tripolye/Trypillia is the Ukrainian part.[/QUOTE]That's how I in brief referred to the whole culture. Obviously Trypillia part had bigger contact with the steppe than southern Cucuteni.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I actually like these turnovers
    We need more of standardize measure units in population genetics, less relativity. Great for people who don't have time to reread and relearn, like me.

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    Gentlemen, take a look at Supp. Table 2. I discuss it below, but you should take a look yourselves;
    it's short, and shows their conclusions based on formal stats.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...673#post508673

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wasn't referring to Chalcolithic Bulgaria. Those samples are too old (c. 4500 BCE for the R1b and c. 4350 BCE for the CT) to have anything to do with Steppe invasions. That R1b is an old Mesolithic L754 (two mutations prior to P297 and three before M269) related to Iron Gates or Dnieper Donets, not to Yamna.
    Perhaps I misunderstood this?

    " so that Steppe lineages would principally show up in elite burials like in Varna. "

    As I said, the elite burial in Varna has nothing to do with Steppe,
    Last edited by Angela; 16-05-17 at 15:59.

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    Just for general information...

    I haven't checked this out for myself yet. It's from GD at anthrogenica:

    "Khvalynsk rather dates to 4300-3800 BC, which is the steppe Eneolithic, whilst Varna I dates to 4700 - 4500 BC. (PALEOECOLOGY, SUBSISTENCE, AND 14C CHRONOLOGY OF THE EURASIAN CASPIAN STEPPE BRONZE AGE. N I Shishlina). The reference given in the Supp Data are too broad and too old because they have not corrected for the reservoir effect as Shishilina does, and as HIgham et al did for Varna."

    Ed. The context was that perhaps "steppe" appears in Varna before it appears in Khvalynsk.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-05-17 at 01:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We need more of standardize measure units in population genetics, less relativity. Great for people who don't have time to reread and relearn, like me.
    You are right, I understand your point. But we have to understand the scientists it's not like they want to change but they have to because with new samples they have better understanding of the bigger picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Gentlemen, take a look at Supp. Table 2. I discuss it below, but you should take a look yourselves;
    it's short, and shows their conclusions based on formal stats.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...673#post508673

    There is something telling me, "maybe there is a reason why ftDNA labeled a clearly CHG type component as Iron Age Invaders".

    Maybe/likely there is a reason why the scientists collectively start to call Yamnaya Late PIE. So we who were theorizing the Steppes as secondary homeland to Indo Europeans could be correct afterall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just for general information...

    I haven't checked this out for myself yet. It's from GD at anthrogenica:

    "Khvalynsk rather dates to 4300-3800 BC, which is the steppe Eneolithic, whilst Varna I dates to 4700 - 4500 BC. (PALEOECOLOGY, SUBSISTENCE, AND 14C CHRONOLOGY OF THE EURASIAN CASPIAN STEPPE BRONZE AGE. N I Shishlina). The reference given in the Supp Data are too broad and too old because they have not corrected for the reservoir effect as Shishilina does, and as HIgham et al did for Varna."

    Ed. The context was that perhaps "steppe" appears in Varna before it appears in Khvalynsk.
    sooooo maybe. CHG to Balkan => mixing with the local H&G who seem to have allot of R1a/R1b lineages=> new local Balkan H&G/CHG and Anatolian_Neo admixed population => to the Steppes, with founder effect where only few lineages reach the region?

    Thats also a interesting theory.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    sooooo maybe. CHG to Balkan => mixing with the local H&G who seem to have allot of R1a/R1b lineages=> new local Balkan H&G/CHG and Anatolian_Neo admixed population => to the Steppes, with founder effect where only few lineages reach the region?

    Thats also a interesting theory.
    I wondered about that too, but I thought maybe it was too far-fetched. :) We don't have that many samples yet after all. Although, who knows, we're getting nothing but surprises lately. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wondered about that too, but I thought maybe it was too far-fetched. :) We don't have that many samples yet after all. Although, who knows, we're getting nothing but surprises lately. :)
    I guess you "ignored" my Hungarian bronze age model I did few months ago..., maybe I made it but didn't post it. :)
    Here it is reposted:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post508709

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I guess you "ignored" my Hungarian bronze age model I did few months ago..., maybe I made it but didn't post it. :)
    Here it is reposted:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post508709
    Never, my dear LeBrok.

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    But what was the main mtDNA haplogroup?

    "Haplogroup R0 has been found in around 55% of osteological remains belonging to the Eneolithic Trypillia culture."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABC123 View Post
    But what was the main mtDNA haplogroup?

    "Haplogroup R0 has been found in around 55% of osteological remains belonging to the Eneolithic Trypillia culture."
    Check post 65:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post508470

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    i red somewhere CTC at the anthropological types level shew an introgression of robust "neolithic" (so little!) Ukrainian females of neighbouring cultures; here again a genders unbalanced mixture! (maybe the opposite unbalanced mixture for LN cultures of N-E Hungary and S Poland???)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Check post 65:
    Thank you! Very interesting. I like this forum. :)

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