What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

Pick main hg of Cucuteni.

  • E1b1b

    Votes: 5 7.1%
  • G2a

    Votes: 27 38.6%
  • I1

    Votes: 5 7.1%
  • I2

    Votes: 38 54.3%
  • J1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • J2

    Votes: 6 8.6%
  • N1c

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • Q

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • R1a

    Votes: 6 8.6%
  • R1b

    Votes: 6 8.6%
  • T

    Votes: 2 2.9%

  • Total voters
    70
I don't think we had. There are however neolithic samples from Hungary and there was no E or J hg among them. If E and J happened to be in neolithic, it was most likely late neolithic and they were in some enclaves or in minority proportions.

Probably as E-V13 and J2b1 have a similar distribution pattern. However one needs to keep in mind Neolithic population densities, refugee areas (from ice age). The regions fall in areas were dna testing cannot be concluded with any reliability. The ones we have come from Cooler climates above the alps including Russia.
 
I'm still thinking E1 and T1a could be found in some areas in Neolithic Europe. They might have been late comers with copper technology migration, and some carrying Red Sea admixtures.

There is unexplained amount of West African Admixture (IIRC) in WHGs, or even in some UHG in Scandinavia. Someone had to bring it to Iberian refuge, I guess. Perhaps E-V13 can be implicated in this role, jumping Gibraltar from Africa to Iberia in Ice Age?

Of course it can be possible but it would be one weird scenario considering that E-V13 is nearly non existent in Morrocco or North Africa for that matter (except in some Jewish groups that were not around during these migrations), also Berber dna E-M81 is found in higher numbers then E-V13 in Iberia (if not mistaken that is). So not very possible in my opinion.
 
From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.
 
From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.

She might not be a typical Vinca. High WHG can be a sign that her HG mother, who was 100 WHG, was assimilated into farmer society.
 
Of course it can be possible but it would be one weird scenario considering that E-V13 is nearly non existent in Morrocco or North Africa for that matter (except in some Jewish groups that were not around during these migrations), also Berber dna E-M81 is found in higher numbers then E-V13 in Iberia (if not mistaken that is). So not very possible in my opinion.
Perhaps pre-E-V13 crossed the sea and E-V13 came to existence in Iberia first.
 
She might not be a typical Vinca. High WHG can be a sign that her HG mother, who was 100 WHG, was assimilated into farmer society.

Just like KO1 in a Hungarian Neolithic village(Koros) was 100% hunter gatherer but all the others, and his descendents, were EEF.

ncomms6257-f2.jpg
It doesn't absolutely mean that there wasn't more WHG in Vinca than in LBK, but I wouldn't go drawing any firm conclusions yet.

The scenario might have been that when the farmers entered these areas, they mated with a few of the hunter gatherers in the area. With the passage of time, and their large populations, the EEF genes predominated.
 
I vote for I1

I vote such cause mostly I1 is crossed with PC1

just possibilities
 
With regards to E-V13, as Maleth said, the ratio in Iberia is heavily skewed to E-M81, which undoubtedly mostly came directly from North Africa.

Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

This is a map of E-V13 distribution. Regardless of when it got to the Balkans, it came from the east. The flow into Italy might have been in the Neolithic, but a lot of it could also have been mediated by the Greeks from the Bronze Age on...

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
 
From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.


if there were EEF in K8 instead of ENF then the view might have been much clearer
but that is the way it goes with admixture analyses ; allways some fogg around
 
Just like KO1 in a Hungarian Neolithic village(Koros) was 100% hunter gatherer but all the others, and his descendents, were EEF.

ncomms6257-f2.jpg
It doesn't absolutely mean that there wasn't more WHG in Vinca than in LBK, but I wouldn't go drawing any firm conclusions yet.

The scenario might have been that when the farmers entered these areas, they mated with a few of the hunter gatherers in the area. With the passage of time, and their large populations, the EEF genes predominated.

there were HG along the Aegean and Adriatic coastal areas and in the Carpathian basin
in mesolithic times, the are south of the Danube was uninhabited (only 1 mesolithic site found in Varna, that's all for the whole area south of the Danube)
so I guess Balkan neolithic had much less WHG then Hungarian neolithic
 
With regards to E-V13, as Maleth said, the ratio in Iberia is heavily skewed to E-M81, which undoubtedly mostly came directly from North Africa.

Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

This is a map of E-V13 distribution. Regardless of when it got to the Balkans, it came from the east. The flow into Italy might have been in the Neolithic, but a lot of it could also have been mediated by the Greeks from the Bronze Age on...

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

E-M123 expanded with the Semites, first known of them were Akkadians 3rd mil BC
IMO E-M123 could be bronze age, not neolithic

TRMCA for E-V13 being 4.4 ka looks like a bronze age expansion too
looking at the map above, I'd go for an expansion from the western steppe followed by a secondary expansion in the Balkans, and a later more recent expansion along with Greek colonisers
just guessing - we have to await more data
 
I am amazed that many here still do not understand that europe was already settled before the youngest Haplogroup marker, R1 , entered Europe.
Many centuries of farming and hunting before any R1 came.

You give the impression that all other markers waited outside of Europe so R1 can enter Europe first.
 
I am amazed that many here still do not understand that europe was already settled before the youngest Haplogroup marker, R1 , entered Europe.
Many centuries of farming and hunting before any R1 came.

You give the impression that all other markers waited outside of Europe so R1 can enter Europe first.
I'm sure nobody knows what the heck you are talking about?! Try expressing your thoughts again, and perhaps with a reference to particular post you don't agree with.
 
E-M123 expanded with the Semites, first known of them were Akkadians 3rd mil BC
IMO E-M123 could be bronze age, not neolithic

TRMCA for E-V13 being 4.4 ka looks like a bronze age expansion too
looking at the map above, I'd go for an expansion from the western steppe followed by a secondary expansion in the Balkans, and a later more recent expansion along with Greek colonisers
just guessing - we have to await more data

Sincerely I think E-V13 could have expanded for the most during Bronze Age, (I 'm tempted to put a first expansion before, at the late Cucuteni-Tripolye developments before other moves) but I don't see it expanding FROM Steppes, even Western, I see it rather INTO Steppes. I agree for later colonizations due to Greeks. That said, some of them were there around Mediterranea long before, no way to challenge it!!!
 
I vote for I1

I vote such cause mostly I1 is crossed with PC1

just possibilities

I think that I1 is very likely to have had a generally more eastern spread at one point that it does nowadays, so this suggestion isn't a wholly unrealistic possibility. I don't personally think that Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in particular is the ticket to finding a lot of ancient eastern I1, but who knows?
 
Angela, I usually agree with almost everything you write, but not about the origins of E-V13.

Plus, the E-V13 is in a Cardial setting at the entrance to Iberia. Cardial was a Neolithic east to west expansion out of the Balkans where we today find so much E-V13. It could then have moved into Iberia later on, explaining it's distribution there.

Cardial was Neolithic, but E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it.

In addition to all that, E-123 has now been found in ancient Armenia, which means some ydna "E" lines most probably were involved in the Neolithic cultures of the Near East.

E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.

There is E-V13 in the Middle East today, even in interior areas which wouldn't have been much affected by trade.

The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.



Is the most logical and parsimonious explanation for the presence of E-V13 in the modern Balkans and adjoining areas really that it went from western North Africa, where it almost doesn't exist today, into Spain and then all the way east into the interior Near East? I don't think so.

No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.
 
Perhaps pre-E-V13 crossed the sea and E-V13 came to existence in Iberia first.

Via Gibraltar you mean? Pre-E-V13 (M78) is found in Eastern North Africa mostly and z1919 seems to have travelled via East route. We have some old Druze samples. (We do not have enough samples yet from these regions) All major papers and National geographic claim an Eastern entry to the balkans so thats the mainstream understanding at present. Is this definite? No but one can only reason things out according to present indicators. It seems we are now even coming closer to the fact that E-V13 has been mutated in Europe (Balkans). On the other hand although E-V13 is found in very low frequencies in North Africa (1 /2%) we dont have any ancient dna sampling from southern Spain or Southern Italy......and neither in Balkan proper for that matter. Until we have these samples at hand one can only draw a picture with the current data and understandings and probabilities. Surprises do happen and theories have been changed, but only backed with scientific evidence.

There is also the fact once again (in the new Trombetta paper) there has been a confirmation of a separation of roughly 10000 years between the birth of M78 (in North East Africa) and E-V13 which sets a comfortable period for travelling out to much further geographical locations, so travelling up at eastern route (Natufian territory) is well within reason.

See this map

E1b1bRoute.png



Notice this:-

E-M78[edit]



The most basal and rare E-M78* paragroup has been found at lower frequencies in Moroccan Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics#E-M78

(arabs as people who arrived from the Levant in more recent event and not Berbers)

Notice also this:-

On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
 
Last edited:
Via Gibraltar you mean? Pre-E-V13 (M78) is found in Eastern North Africa mostly and z1919 seems to have travelled via East route. We have some old Druze samples. (We do not have enough samples yet from these regions) All major papers and National geographic claim an Eastern entry to the balkans so thats the mainstream understanding at present. Is this definite? No but one can only reason things out according to present indicators. It seems we are now even coming closer to the fact that E-V13 has been mutated in Europe (Balkans). On the other hand although E-V13 is found in very low frequencies in North Africa (1 /2%) we dont have any ancient dna sampling from southern Spain or Southern Italy......and neither in Balkan proper for that matter. Until we have these samples at hand one can only draw a picture with the current data and understandings and probabilities. Surprises do happen and theories have been changed, but only backed with scientific evidence.

There is also the fact once again (in the new Trombetta paper) there has been a confirmation of a separation of roughly 10000 years between the birth of M78 (in North East Africa) and E-V13 which sets a comfortable period for travelling out to much further geographical locations, so travelling up at eastern route (Natufian territory) is well within reason.

See this map

E1b1bRoute.png



Notice this:-

E-M78[edit]



The most basal and rare E-M78* paragroup has been found at lower frequencies in Moroccan Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_genetics#E-M78

(arabs as people who arrived from the Levant in more recent event and not Berbers)

Notice also this:-

On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

This is how I see it as well, since sailing directly from North Africa to Italy is difficult because the ocean and wind currents flow east. That's why even today so many of the refugees die in the water. Such a direct route was possible by the first millennium BC, so some of those other "E" clades could have come with the Carthaginians, for example, but the safest route, the one taken by Cleopatra, was still the Bronze Age and Neolithic Age traditional route of sailing east along the southern Mediterranean coast, up the Levant coast and then west to reach Sicily.

It's not something that can be resolved without ancient dna, and hopefully we won't have to wait long for answers. We need some yDna from the Neolithic era Levant. I know they have a lot of Natufian material, for example. Autosomal too, of course. I also don't know what on earth is holding up the research from the Bean Project. They've supposedly been studying those mesolithic era bones from the Greek islands for years now.

As for the map, I'm not sure about the sourcing of M-81. Given the autosomal results of the Berbers, it's possible that it branched off nearer to North Africa.
 
Angela, I usually agree with almost everything you write, but not about the origins of E-V13.



Cardial was Neolithic, but E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it.



E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.



The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.





No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.

Well, it would be boring if we agreed on absolutely everything, yes? :) You proved me wrong about J2, since I said the earliest entry was probably late Neolithic, and it's definitely at least as old in Europe as the transition from Middle Neolithic to Late Neolithic, so you may be right about this as well. I just think that, as I said in the above post, sailing in the Mesolithic, or even the early Neolithic, from Tunisia to Pantelleria with your tool kit and supplies is not as easy as it looks on paper, both from personal experience and from what I know of the known sea routes of the past. I also think the snp trail of z1919 is interesting.

Stranger things have happened, though, so I'm totally open to whatever the ancient dna shows.

E-M78 might still have reached Greece and the Balkans by the Mesolithic, even if they followed the Levant coast from northeastern Africa via Egypt.
 
I know they have a lot of Natufian material, for example. Autosomal too, of course. I also don't know what on earth is holding up the research from the Bean Project. They've supposedly been studying those mesolithic era bones from the Greek islands for years now.

That would settle or bring much closer a better understand of origins and routes.

As for the map, I'm not sure about the sourcing of M-81. Given the autosomal results of the Berbers, it's possible that it branched off nearer to North Africa.

I believe what we can tell with a certain amount of certainty is it has moved to North east Africa from where ever it mutated which was probably somewhere central in North Africa or even further South. Most of the E-m81 found in Middle east and South Europe could very well be to be much more attributed to recent migrations although one cannot exclude more ancient entries via Gibraltar into Europe. (that has been extensively discussed in some Iberian thread)

E-M81 is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in North Africa, dominated by its subclade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago[2][33] or 13,900 years ago.[34] This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximatelya) (notice the difference from East to West North Africa. This is the opposite to E-78 (where E-V13 stems from) that moved to an eastern direction probably at a much earlier date) 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[33][35][36]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA)#E-M81
 

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