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View Poll Results: Pick main hg of Cucuteni.

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  • E1b1b

    3 5.66%
  • G2a

    15 28.30%
  • I1

    4 7.55%
  • I2

    31 58.49%
  • J1

    0 0%
  • J2

    5 9.43%
  • N1c

    1 1.89%
  • Q

    0 0%
  • R1a

    6 11.32%
  • R1b

    6 11.32%
  • T

    1 1.89%
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Thread: What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

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    What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

    The genetic research is speeding up these days and it shouldn't be long when we have published genomes of many ancient cultures. I think it is time to have a little competition here for bragging rights. Give your best guess.


    It is a late Neolithic, so we might see same situation as in Hungary with many I2a? I suspect to see a lot of R1b in northern part of Cucuteni, or maybe R1a?

    Multiple choice allowed.



    Results are in:
    Here are first results from Cucuteni-Trypillia:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...35616.full.pdf
    5736 3931-3640 calBCE [3705-3640 calBCE (4890±30 BP, Beta-432808); 3931-3670 calBCE (4985±30 BP, OxA-25991)] Trypillia Trypillia .. Verteba Cave .. Ukraine 48.47 25.53 M H5a G2a2b2a
    5735 3911-3659 calBCE (4976±33 BP, OxA-26203) Trypillia Trypillia .. Verteba Cave .. Ukraine 48.47 25.53 M T2b G2a2b2a
    5647 3758-3636 calBCE (4888±32 BP, OxA-26204) Trypillia Trypillia .. Verteba Cave .. Ukraine 48.47 25.53 M HV G2a
    5750 4000-3600 BCE Trypillia Trypillia .. Verteba Cave .. Ukraine 48.47 25.53 M U8b1b E
    5228 3619-2936 calBCE (4550±90 BP, Ki-13388) Trypillia_outlier Trypillia_outlier .. Verteba Cave .. Ukraine 48.47 25.53 M H1b G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1



    Discussion about results start from post #65:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post508470
    Last edited by LeBrok; 08-09-17 at 18:47.
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b U152 L2 L20
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

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    Went with R1a and I2.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Id say I2 as Cucuteni natives.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If it is I2, I doubt that the most common I2 subclade would be the same as the most common I2 subclade there today.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

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    I1 was found in Hungary too, though nobody thinks yet that it would be found in Cucuteni. Some time ago I was thinking that E and J2 was part of Cucuteni and linked to some Neolithic or Copper expansions, but not at the moment.

    What if I1 found way to Scandinavia with Corded Ware?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I1 was found in Hungary too, though nobody thinks yet that it would be found in Cucuteni. Some time ago I was thinking that E and J2 was part of Cucuteni and linked to some Neolithic or Copper expansions, but not at the moment.

    What if I1 found way to Scandinavia with Corded Ware?
    Il and I2 make around 22% (in present day Romania as a whole) E is only 7% and J's about 5% if its anything to go with.

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    I'm saying R1b to everything at the moment.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Went with G2a, I2 and R1a

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Cucuteni was a mixture of Starcevo (G2a) , LBK (G2a) and some Anatolian herders (Hamangia-Bojan) (I guess J1)
    They may have picked up some local HG (I2) too

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Cucuteni was a mixture of Starcevo (G2a) , LBK (G2a) and some Anatolian herders (Hamangia-Bojan) (I guess J1)
    They may have picked up some local HG (I2) too
    Most likely right. My original R1b theory was R1 were mammoth hunters and after they killed all the mammoth they split and while R1a stayed on the steppe R1b settled down around the Black sea (which I assumed had high population density supporting wetlands from the lower sea levels) and as sedentary HGs they adapted to farming when the farmers arrived and then later spread onto the steppe where eventually they lost in a tussle with the horse dudes and ended up as the artisan caste within PIE...

    however the finds of early R1b HGs on the steppe made me think that was probably wrong so now I'd say your idea is most likely but I think during the early metal-working / copper-working part of the neolithic R1b has an outside chance of being the right answer to any question :)

    (but less so after that era)

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    I2 and G2 with a minority of R1a/b

    EDIT: What period?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I2 and G2 with a minority of R1a/b

    EDIT: What period?
    Good question, another think would be splitting them into South and North. You can elaborate about these in your post, as I'm not sure we should create 4 threads accommodating time periods and parts of their territory.

    I think, south part would sport more G2a and I2 and north influx of R1b and a. I suppose quantity of the latter would rise with time closer to Yamnaya, and Corded period.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture. As for the Near Eastern haplogroups, it has since transpired that G2a was the main lineage of Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. But I am still convinced that E1b1b, J1 and T1a were also present among Neolithic farmers.

    The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa. That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders. Therefore I doubt that E-V13 was already present in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the Neolithic period.

    As for R1a and R1b, this is more difficult. There surely could be some of them in the eastern Cucuteni-Tripillian, especially in the later phase when they started advancing into the Pontic steppe, due to the proximity and possible intermingling with Yamna people. But I seriously doubt that they would more than occasional trace lineages. The way I see it is that the Corded Ware expansion, which started in the northern forest-steppe zone of the Yamna horizon, absorbed the remnant of the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture. So as soon as R1a and R1b Corded Ware people moved en masse to western Ukraine, the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture collapsed.


    One possible alternative scenario is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture was really an almost purely R1a or R1b culture. This is very unlikely based on archaeological evidence, but we could imagine two possible scenarios in which the Cucuteni-Tripillian is one of the cradles of Proto-Indo-European people :

    1) In the first one, Cucuteni-Tripillians are essentially R1a people who adopted agriculture upon contact with the Balkanic G2a neighbours. When they moved into the steppe from 3500 BCE, they encountered R1b Yamna people and the merger created the Corded Ware.

    2) The Cucuteni-Tripillians were actually R1b-L51 people related to Yamna R1b-Z2103 people. In this most unlikely scenario, the Proto-Italo-Celtic and Proto-Germanic speakers descend from the Cucuteni-Tripillian instead of the Yamna people, while Yamna spawned only the Greek, Albanian, Armenia, Anatolian and Tocharians branches of IE languages.



    In conclusion, I think that the most likely possibility is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture will be predominantly I2 (over 50% of the lineages, and probably lots of I2a1b-M423 among them), followed by G2a (20-30%), while other haplogroups (C1a2, F, I*, I1, J1, T1a) fill up what's left.
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    I threw around the scenario of L51 being a late neolithic farming expansion from Anatolia into the Balkans, given the prevalence of L23* and M269* clades in the middle east and the Balkans, and Yamna Z2103 being a northern up shoot of L23 from the middle east to Maykop people to Volga. In turn, the Z2103 Maykop descendants that made up Yamna would have Indo-Europeanized R1a Forest Steppe people and L51 Cucuteni people. I think there is a discontinuity between the R1b1* hunter gatherer and Yamna Z2013s, even based on something superficial like looks. R1b1* hunter gatherer was most likely light skinned, light eyed, with blonde hair, while Z2103s had darker features. The time span between the two is also dubious. So my theory (not fully convinced personally but throwing stuff out there hoping it sticks) is L51 farmers and R1a-ers were IE-ized by the more sophisticated Z2103 Maykop culture.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture. As for the Near Eastern haplogroups, it has since transpired that G2a was the main lineage of Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. But I am still convinced that E1b1b, J1 and T1a were also present among Neolithic farmers.

    The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa. That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders. Therefore I doubt that E-V13 was already present in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the Neolithic period.

    As for R1a and R1b, this is more difficult. There surely could be some of them in the eastern Cucuteni-Tripillian, especially in the later phase when they started advancing into the Pontic steppe, due to the proximity and possible intermingling with Yamna people. But I seriously doubt that they would more than occasional trace lineages. The way I see it is that the Corded Ware expansion, which started in the northern forest-steppe zone of the Yamna horizon, absorbed the remnant of the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture. So as soon as R1a and R1b Corded Ware people moved en masse to western Ukraine, the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture collapsed.


    One possible alternative scenario is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture was really an almost purely R1a or R1b culture. This is very unlikely based on archaeological evidence, but we could imagine two possible scenarios in which the Cucuteni-Tripillian is one of the cradles of Proto-Indo-European people :

    1) In the first one, Cucuteni-Tripillians are essentially R1a people who adopted agriculture upon contact with the Balkanic G2a neighbours. When they moved into the steppe from 3500 BCE, they encountered R1b Yamna people and the merger created the Corded Ware.

    2) The Cucuteni-Tripillians were actually R1b-L51 people related to Yamna R1b-Z2103 people. In this most unlikely scenario, the Proto-Italo-Celtic and Proto-Germanic speakers descend from the Cucuteni-Tripillian instead of the Yamna people, while Yamna spawned only the Greek, Albanian, Armenia, Anatolian and Tocharians branches of IE languages.



    In conclusion, I think that the most likely possibility is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture will be predominantly I2 (over 50% of the lineages, and probably lots of I2a1b-M423 among them), followed by G2a (20-30%), while other haplogroups (C1a2, F, I*, I1, J1, T1a) fill up what's left.
    Agreed. To expound a bit on the archaeology:

    The thing to look at is the lithic tradition of the mesolithic steppe vs. Balkan Neolithic. The tools originating in the North forest zone, and later appearing in the Pontic Steppe, are of a "macrolithic" tradition that appears to be continuous, or at the very least similar, with that seen in the Kunda-Swiderian culture. Amidst the archaeological nebula this is one thing that is very telling, especially when one compares CT to the Steppe proper.

    While we see pottery traditions that clearly represent steppe influence in very early CT (by 4000BC), the lithic industry remains a "micro-lithic" tradition clearly rooted in the balkan neolithic. And likewise as you see evidence of agriculture appear on the mesolithic steppe, you see the lithic industry also remain unchanged; still macro-lithic Kunda-Swiderian type originating in the North. Interestingly you also see a greater degree of fortification in subsequently latter levels of CT, which could indicate a need for defense from steppe peoples.

    It remains like this up until evidence of actual Steppe expansion as we near the "eneolithic".

    So yeah. CT is not steppe, and is not PIE. It's clearly Balkan Neolithic, so it likely isn't R1. I2 and G2a, probably 50/50 with a minority of R1.

    The east Pontic is more complicated with evidence of agriculture and stock breeding much earlier, but thankfully we're speaking of CT.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Il and I2 make around 22% (in present day Romania as a whole) E is only 7% and J's about 5% if its anything to go with.
    the %s of Y-E1b I have are from an unique survey so they can mislead me, but as a whole Y-E is about at least 15% in Eastern Romania of today.
    time and location are of some importance. Cucuteni-Tripolye culture dured some time and the first Y-G2 and maybe some Y-J of first Neolithic inheritage had time to mix a bit with autochtones Y-I2, what is not the proof they did it immediatly. At the daybreak of metals times in the area I'm sure Y-J2 and Y-E1b had taken weight, and more Y-I2 had participed in the mix. At the opposite, I'm not sure Y-R1a (I see more northern or northeastern) had already taken too much weight. Apparently, the Cucuteni-Tripolye population was stayed a short statured one as a whole at Yamnaya times: lack of Y-I2? (but I'm not sure the Y-I2 former population (rather in highlands?, was so highER statured than the farmers descendants at these times, even if today West Balkans and Carpathians populations are tall... just speculation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture. As for the Near Eastern haplogroups, it has since transpired that G2a was the main lineage of Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. But I am still convinced that E1b1b, J1 and T1a were also present among Neolithic farmers.
    I'm still thinking E1 and T1a could be found in some areas in Neolithic Europe. They might have been late comers with copper technology migration, and some carrying Red Sea admixtures.

    The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa. That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders. Therefore I doubt that E-V13 was already present in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the Neolithic period.
    There is unexplained amount of West African Admixture (IIRC) in WHGs, or even in some UHG in Scandinavia. Someone had to bring it to Iberian refuge, I guess. Perhaps E-V13 can be implicated in this role, jumping Gibraltar from Africa to Iberia in Ice Age?

    2) The Cucuteni-Tripillians were actually R1b-L51 people related to Yamna R1b-Z2103 people. In this most unlikely scenario, the Proto-Italo-Celtic and Proto-Germanic speakers descend from the Cucuteni-Tripillian instead of the Yamna people, while Yamna spawned only the Greek, Albanian, Armenia, Anatolian and Tocharians branches of IE languages.
    This scenario actually crossed my mind, especially when we talking about North Cucuteni/West Ukraine being Celtic/Italic and South Cucuteni being Anatolian/Greek kind.
    Corded could be explain by R1a of Northern Forest finally becoming farmers, multiplying and spreading, pushing the Cucuteni type into the Western Europe and Balkans.

    Soon we should know how unrealistic it is, lol.



    In conclusion, I think that the most likely possibility is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture will be predominantly I2 (over 50% of the lineages, and probably lots of I2a1b-M423 among them), followed by G2a (20-30%), while other haplogroups (C1a2, F, I*, I1, J1, T1a) fill up what's left.
    Most likely, plus some R1a or b in North Cucuteni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    While we see pottery traditions that clearly represent steppe influence in very early CT (by 4000BC), the lithic industry remains a "micro-lithic" tradition clearly rooted in the balkan neolithic. And likewise as you see evidence of agriculture appear on the mesolithic steppe, you see the lithic industry also remain unchanged; still macro-lithic Kunda-Swiderian type originating in the North. Interestingly you also see a greater degree of fortification in subsequently latter levels of CT, which could indicate a need for defense from steppe peoples.
    Steppe people soaked so much culture from Cucuteni that it is almost unbelievable that Cucuteni language wasn't part of the deal. However language is also strongly connected to religion, and judging by these two, they cold have come from the East with kurgan burials.
    Cucuteni seemed very relaxed peaceful people. They didn't sport defensive walls, towers and castles, and their religion was rather matriarchal, when judging by figurines. When the dust settled they lost their land, religion and possibly language to the invaders from the Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa. That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders.
    However this seems to be the main stream understanding of how E-V13 entered the Neolithic. Again no North African crossing mentioned. More and more via Gibraltar.

    However, in 2010, researchers have studied the genetic diversity of modern populations to throw light on the processes involved in these ancient events. The new study, funded by the Wellcome Trust, examines the diversity of the Y chromosome. Mark Jobling, who led the research, said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosome lineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows a gradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100% frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed, how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is." The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2 (R-M269), like E1b1b or J lineages, spread together with farming from the Near East. Priorarchaeological[23][24][25][26][27][28] and metrological[29][30] studies had arrived at similar conclusions in support of the migrationist model.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe

    Have there been Neolithic balkan samples taken yet? Do we have results? Can someone put them online?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post

    Have there been Neolithic balkan samples taken yet? Do we have results? Can someone put them online?
    I don't think we had. There are however neolithic samples from Hungary and there was no E or J hg among them. If E and J happened to be in neolithic, it was most likely late neolithic and they were in some enclaves or in minority proportions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I don't think we had. There are however neolithic samples from Hungary and there was no E or J hg among them. If E and J happened to be in neolithic, it was most likely late neolithic and they were in some enclaves or in minority proportions.
    Probably as E-V13 and J2b1 have a similar distribution pattern. However one needs to keep in mind Neolithic population densities, refugee areas (from ice age). The regions fall in areas were dna testing cannot be concluded with any reliability. The ones we have come from Cooler climates above the alps including Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm still thinking E1 and T1a could be found in some areas in Neolithic Europe. They might have been late comers with copper technology migration, and some carrying Red Sea admixtures.

    There is unexplained amount of West African Admixture (IIRC) in WHGs, or even in some UHG in Scandinavia. Someone had to bring it to Iberian refuge, I guess. Perhaps E-V13 can be implicated in this role, jumping Gibraltar from Africa to Iberia in Ice Age?
    Of course it can be possible but it would be one weird scenario considering that E-V13 is nearly non existent in Morrocco or North Africa for that matter (except in some Jewish groups that were not around during these migrations), also Berber dna E-M81 is found in higher numbers then E-V13 in Iberia (if not mistaken that is). So not very possible in my opinion.

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    From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0

    If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    From user East-Pole biodiversity forum.

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0

    If this is somewhat close to truth then there was significant WHG impact before IE in Vinca.
    She might not be a typical Vinca. High WHG can be a sign that her HG mother, who was 100 WHG, was assimilated into farmer society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Of course it can be possible but it would be one weird scenario considering that E-V13 is nearly non existent in Morrocco or North Africa for that matter (except in some Jewish groups that were not around during these migrations), also Berber dna E-M81 is found in higher numbers then E-V13 in Iberia (if not mistaken that is). So not very possible in my opinion.
    Perhaps pre-E-V13 crossed the sea and E-V13 came to existence in Iberia first.

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