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Thread: From Mycenean (Q-P change) to Homer and Koine

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    From Mycenean (Q-P change) to Homer and Koine





    mycenean armor
    you see the κορυς helmet made by bones which is mark of IE entrance, arsenic bronze road, and show connectivity with Vatin and Vucocar IE stops,
    the above is trade mark of all IE cultures until iron age,
    that is a possible theory of Mycenean ancestry by many scientists,
    the other possible is the minor Asian origin expresed also by many scientists

    from the title the ones who read this thread you can guess what I will write

    1) Linear B

    2) Mycenean society and linguistic

    3) the turn from Q to P which exists in Greek and Celtic


    1 )Linear B

    Before the alphabet we see the SYLLABEAR SYMBOLS and the LOGOGRAPHS


    the genesis of the GREEK language

    most linguists today consider the same area as Georgiev suggested that Greek split from an older group of IE langauges (many theories suggested, greco-phrygian, greco-Aryan etc etc)


    (personally I have some pre cautions about the map)

    from that area were proto Greek appeared seemed that sprunk a later form of primitive or proto Greek the Mycenean

    Mycenean was spoken to south Greece, and is the mother language of the achaic dialect and relative to Dorian

    The writing System before Alphabet is

    1) Kretan Ieroglyphics (Logos) some called it Lydian
    2)Linear A not solved, possibly the Minoan language or a religious signal (Makedonians priest also use ieroglyphics )
    3)Linear B the Mycenean Language writting system

    Linear B was discovered by Arthur Evans and 'solved' by Ventris and Chandwick








    2) Mycenean society and Linguistic

    Mycenean was a feudal/empire society with grace from the city(palace) owner,
    it seems palace had 4 roles

    α) market with laws and protection from a 'king' (even the roads in his authority)
    β) barracks and troop camp
    Γ) treasury warehouses
    Δ) high quality factories (lower quality was in villages and landowners houses)

    there was priest activity in palace but priest prefer to stay in temples, which many times could be outside town

    the ultimate title in the begin was ΑΝΑΞ (ανακτος) FANAX WANAX wa-na-ka (compare aryan anahitta = queenn)
    beneath him was Λααγετας ΛαFaγετας Lafayetas or Lafagetas la-wa-ge-ta (Modern Λαοηγετης laoegetes) a prince that was in command as high general and as cancelor
    lafayetes were Achileas a-ki-re-us Hector Antilochos

    Lafagetes had their own court, house/temple τιμαριο τεμενος te-me-no

    in a second degree were the kings (peripheral, preferacture town owners and military leaders)
    they were named βασιλεις qa-si-re-us Βασιλευ
    (Notice that the -re- always goes to le or la in Greek, Homer called that as Λυγρα)
    the court of kings was like a council to anax and was called βασιλεια qa-si-rwi-ja
    (Notice that -qa- is similar to aga-memnon achaians achamenides sach saxon etc, but in Greek sometimes goes from g->b (or v?) compare gw*)

    there were 2 smaller military degrees ko-re-te pro-ko-re-te possibly village or a small guard, or caravan compagnions

    the land owner were 2 kind,
    the big land owners who own land and small villages and were forced to pay tribute and support with a lesser army the Anax
    they were the τελεσται teleste te-re-te (re->le)
    and the ones who were supervising anax land or had smaller land the Μοιροππαι (moroppa)
    (there are 2 kind of moira a. the small piece of land, the 'fate' of poverty b. mora the known spartan youth military training teams like ΙΛΑ)

    the mercenairies were called ke-se-no Ξενοι (in modern Gr means foreigners)

    Now something strange
    in modern Greek is επιβατες epibate epivate (passenger)
    and ιπποτες ippotes the cavalry
    in mycenean seems to was e-qe-ta epetes επετες,
    they were the kings champions, they drive the charriot of the king, the fight for him, they carry his messages with angels αγγελοι, and sometimes they spy for him
    they were mounted on chariot most of time, and kings most trusted men,

    military units
    in labels we find the word o-ka ορχα ορχος,
    they were military units from 10 to 110 men


    3) Q->P change

    as we see we have 2 changes
    one is the re -> le, la
    second is the -qa-
    -qa- goes to pe in Arcado-Cypriot and ba (or va) in very Archaic Greek
    and although still the horse is ικκος, ikkos<->iqqos the rider/passenger is epetas
    But in Latin the same should give from equus, but not, since in Latin is equites

    qasireu ->pasileu->basileu or vasileu

    so by that we understand that Q->P change was done before 900 BC,


    soon about Homeric and other Greek
    Last edited by Yetos; 28-06-15 at 12:31.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    THE HOMERIC LANGUAGE

    ΗΜΟΣ Δ ΗΡΙΓΕΝΕΙΑ ΦΑΝΗ ΡΟΔΟΔΑΚΤΥΛΗ ΗΩΣ
    but when morning came, the rose finger aurora appeared

    the Homeric language is a strange language,
    many have been written about Homer's work
    in antique it was consider a proto Ionian Aeolian Ιωνικη Αιολικη
    but today is considered as mixed language that uses words and sounds from all ancient Greek dialects in order the achive the metron μετρον, the rythm, the melody,
    Homer's language's is mainly a 8th century BC, cause probably that time took its final form, but uses sounds and words and aspiration when needed that might come from a language before proto Greek were spoken like φασγανα faswhana sword pa-ka-na,
    the existance of F διγαμμα when fits, which was not even sounded in Ionic Aeolic at 6th century and in Dorian after 4rth century BC

    scientists that searched and worked in Homer's language are
    Hoffman Debrunner Sherrer Fick Wilamowitz Allen Sittl Monro Meister Witte Parry Nilsson Promponas Godart and more

    The Homeric dialect show relativity with Mycenean, but is not Mycenean,
    yet it proves the continuity of the language, comparing the epic poems and the Linear B scripts

    Ma-te μητερ mother
    tu-ka-te θυγατερ daughter
    ko-wo κουρος
    i-o ιος Ηomeric υιος !!!
    i-je-re-u Ιερευς Iereus Priest
    ke-ra-me-u κεραμευς brick/clay maker
    po-ti-ni-ja Ποτνια respectactable (the word changed meaning in Roman times by Christians)
    qu-o-ko-ro βουκολος cattle breeder
    su-qo-ta Συβωτης (Q->P/B/V) pigBreeder swein-Συς
    ku-ru-so χρυσος gold
    a-ku-ro αργυρος silver
    A-pe-ro Απελλωνει δοτικη dative to Apollo
    etc etc

    comparing
    script V52 a-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja Αθανα Ποτνια (respectable godeess Athena)
    Hom Z-305 ποτνι' Αθηναιη

    script Ra1543-48 pa-qa-na a-re-ru-wo-a de-so-mo φασγανα αρηροτα (αρτια) δεσμοις
    Hom Ο-713 φασγανα καλα μελανδετα

    etc etc


    the F /w/ βαυ in Greek is already missing in the 7-8 BC in Ionic Aeolic Dialects but existing in Doric until 4rth century BC
    in Homeric language we see the usage of F which means that Homer and the later ραψωδοι (metric music readers/speakers) knew their existance in older forms,
    that makes Homeric as poems that might not be written at 7 century as many claim but older,
    cause if they were written at 7-8 century BC SURELY HOMER WOULD NOT USE F/w/ CAUSE HE WOULD NOT KNEW IT
    the above for many send Homeric poems back to Thessally land of Achileus as smaller works from before Dorian descent and Greek colonization (10th century BC)
    that might gathered and unified to a big poem at minor Asia or Athens
    at the times of Hesiodos or little later.

    Bentley notice that first, and the research gave 3354 use of F and 617 reject of F according the rythm/metric,

    something that we must notice in Homeric is
    ending of nouns to -a according Aeolian
    αποκοπη βραχεου προθεσεων
    ου Αιολοκη ψιλωσις
    ου Ιωνικη δασυνσις
    that will see them in Makedonian
    Last edited by Yetos; 30-06-15 at 15:21.

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    The Ionic dialect,

    first it has nothing to do with Ionio Pelagos (ionian sea)
    it is a pure central Aegean

    to understand the Iones, most ancient writers consider them as Pelasgians who adopted/accepted IE Hellenic

    The Ionic dialect homeland is Attica Euboea and south Thessaly Phthia (Φθια).
    it expand in central Aegean islands and minor Asia and from there to all of mediterrenean,
    it is the mother of koine with Makedonian
    a λυγρη dialect using the tongue

    characteristics
    long Α instead of H (δαμων δημος)
    turn of -τι to σι Fικατι Εικοσι διδωτι διδωσι in attic that is different
    does use much the -ει ημεις ημεες (pontic εμες) ε+α does not make long α (μακρον α) ημεας or/but η (τα γενεα = τα γενη)
    etc ε+ο =ου ε+ω =ω
    the sound of Ionian is like in church music (not gregorian)
    aparemphaton to -ναι ειναι διδωναι στηναι
    too much δασυνσις use of H before words starting from vowel
    rr=ρρ = vowel

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    The Dorian Dialect

    it is a daughter of Western hellenic dialects with Makedonian Epirotan
    it changes a lot as moving south,
    original are the Doris and Locris, then Spartan, then Rodian,
    the sound survive in modern Grecani and Epirotan, also claims about Tsakonika,
    a larryngeal sound dialect

    characteristics
    KEEPS the F/w until 4rth Cent BC, loses it before Makedonian kingdom
    Long A instead of H
    keepts the -τι instead of ionian -σι διακατιοι διακοσιοι διδωτι διδωσι
    Aorist to -ΞΑ on virbs ending in -ιω/ιζω ελπιω ελπιζω Ελπαξα Ελπισα, ψηφιω ψηφιζω Εψαφα-ξα εψηφι-σα
    aparemphaton to -μεν διδομεν διδωναι στημεν στηναι

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Arcado-Cypriot

    nobody knows the origin
    some claim of Arwazza Assuwa, (when Hellenized) and some a Pelasgian
    some say it is what left from Mycenean, due to Cypriotic Syllabearium (a para linear B)
    it was spoken in mountain Peloponese Pamphylia and Cyprus !!!! (areas tottaly cutten, and away from each other)
    it shows some very archaic sounds and types,
    usage of nosal n is multi


    characteristics
    keep of long A
    keep of F/w (even to last century)
    turns to -σι not -τι διδωσι
    does uses -eus -ευς but -ης (ιερευς ιερης)
    ending in -o is -υ (even today) αλλο αλλυ
    too much usage of MIDDLE VOICE (μεση φωνη) with -τοι and -ντοι
    MANY TIMES T sounds as NT !!!!!! (even today) and generally uses the sound of ν=n too much
    aparepnhaton to -ναι διδωναι

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    Aeolian Dialect

    the most strange dialect
    it has very much ψιλωσις psilosis (loses most h- before words)
    it has common with Arcado-Cypriot and Makedonian,
    IT SHOWS THAT P-T CHANGE IN THAT DIALECT, SO IT IS ARCHEGONUS, PROBABLY FROM WESTERN HELLENIC,
    P-T CHANGE IS ALSO CHARACTERISTIC IN CELTIC WITH GERMANIC
    spoken in Epirus Thessaly Pelasgian Argos and Aeolis in minor Asia
    most writers consider them as Pelasgians but seems they expand in lands where pelasgians were
    the most explicting is lip palatal

    characteristicskeep long A

    lip palatal instead of dental comparing other Greek
    for example
    number 4 in all Greek τετταρα τεσσαρα τετορα here is πετταρα (keeps p or σανπι instead of t)
    p f b V and ph is something to arque in Greek,
    so πετταρα if with sanpi reminds Germanic four fire vier
    Βελφοι Δελφοι Β =Δ !!!
    number 5 πεμπε Instead πεντε compare five funf
    Πεθθαλοι Φετταλοι Θετταλοι P or F(ph) = Θ!!!!!

    aparemphaton το -μεν
    and more

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Attic dialect

    The Attic Dialect is sub dialect of the Ionian dialect,
    Attica is the pelasgian name of Athens (home of Hatti) but generally today means the province/territory around Athens
    At Athens the last area of Ionians in mainland Greece appeared a sub dialect that developed to a great linguistic and cultural basis of all ancient Greek,
    Attic sprunk from Ionian but created a kind of common language upon which ancient writers wrote and develop the culture,
    compare it with Goethe Deutsch or OCS for Slavic
    Attic was west Ionian but due to neighboring with all the other Greek dialects had the privilidge to promote and evolute to KOINE (common language)

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    Makedonian Dialect or language

    ok
    that is big to discuss and many argue due to Demosthenes and the discussion at India among Makedonians and rest
    but before i want you to read Aeolian and Doric

    here is map of 500 BC spoken dialects before Koine


    with yellow green is Arcado-Cypriot dialect probably remnants from Mycenean or Arzawa
    with Dark blue is the Doric dialect
    with red are the Epirotan Acarnanian etc primitive Greek dialects
    connection among Red and dark Blue exists,

    with Green are the Attic and Ionic Greek
    later evolute to Koine

    with dark Orange is the Thessalian
    with yellow orange is the Aeolic
    connection among those 2 also exist,

    now lets go to Makedonian
    we see a spoted/dot red and a pink
    That is because Makedonians were 2 subgroups
    the Lokroi (tall and black hair| ) at dot red
    the Argeiades of Karanos (short and light brown) at pink.
    Lokroi are also connected with Dorians
    while Argeiads with Argeians
    there was another group also of Bottiaeans

    Now to the Dialect
    from 1825 and Muller the argue about makedonian language was under strong political pressure
    political pressure through science was always a weapon of diplomats
    Makedonian language was Illyrian to some, Slavic to Others, alone forgoten IE to others,
    Antoine Meillet (1866–1936) Arnaldo Momigliano(1908–1987) at that time said that data we have are not enoughand for 80 years they were right
    today after the modern discoveries like Katadesmoi, and many searches upon Alexandreia lexicons, and new studies we know that Makedonian dialect is a trouble but can be inserted to Greek languages

    Both Makedonian and Aeolian are away from koine, primitive languages away from Arcado-Cypriot and Ionic
    Aeolian shows some aspirations that can be compared with Germanic
    while Makedonian with Celtic and Brygian Thracian,

    Both Aeolian and Makedonian is just like how Germanic are Dutch and Deutsch and Scandinavian,
    we know Dutsch is another language than Gothic than English even Scandinavian and not Deutsch
    BUT WE ENTER THEM ALL TO GERMANIC LANGUAGES,
    we know Francais and Spanish and Portogeuse are languages not Italian
    BUT WE ENTER THEM ALL TO LATIN

    same is the Makedonian and the Aeolian
    They belong to wider Greek linguistic family

    specialities of Makedonian dialect
    from the archaiology we see that female names are Greek but do not follow the rst Greek endings
    for example from tombstone of Ξανθος we see ΑΜΑΔΙΚΑ
    we also know Ευριδικα of Phillipos
    so we see female ending to -a like the Thracian and the Slavic ones (Makedonians neighbors with Thracians and relatives of Brygians)
    and not to -e like rest Greek
    but are Greek names Ευριδικα Αμαδικα Ηγησισκα (Ευριδικη Αμαδικη Ηγησισκη)

    MAKEDONIAN KEEPS STRONG the A
    for example at posessive case at katadesmoi we read χηραν Instead of χηρων, so α+ο =α instead of ω to rest dialects
    we read κακα Instead of κακη γαμαι instead of γημαι, ερημα instead of ερημη
    so
    α+ο = α instead of ω
    α+ε =α instead of η
    etc


    MAKEDONIAN KEEPS the original IE voice stops instead of Greek aspirate voice stops

    so in makedonian we see B Δ Γ (not BDG) instead of ΦΘΧ (Ph Th H/Ch)

    D->Δ->Θ
    that brings them again close to Thracian aspiration, but explains better words and origin of words and etymology that can not be explained by rest Greek
    for example
    ΖΕΥΣ ΔΙΑΣ and θεος, the word for God in Greek is θεος, but in Makedonian is ΔΙΟΣ and going more pritive to strong A is ΔΙΑΣ
    So through Makedonian we can understand how IE evolved to Greek and D ->Δ->Θ
    to give an example rest Greeks call and worship Zeus Dias but call him God as Θεος, in Makedonian DIAS turn to DIOS (compare Brygian TIOS)

    B->B(V)->Φ(Ph,F)
    another good point of primitive Greek 500 yeras after Hesiodos and 800 after Homer,
    lets see the head
    Slavic (Thracian?) Glava
    Makedonian Κεβαλη, Κεβλη (Kevale-li Kevle-li)
    Attic Κεφαλη (Kefale-li Kephale-li)
    so when Athenaean comedian writes κεβληπυρις to create laugh with μακεδονιζειν (δειπνοσοφισται) means red head (a bird, female noun) from original Makedonian κεβληπυρας,
    representing a Makedonian who tries to Speak KOINE (πυρος in Makedonian is the red of fire (πυρ)),

    a good example on how Makedonian affected Koine and how Makedonian is modern Greek is the bellow
    the well spring source in Greek is Φρεαρ (frear)
    in Makedonian is Βρυα Βρυαρ (vruar) (that is an argue about Thracian ending -bria also)
    but in modern and in Koine even from Ptolemy's time we see word βρυση (Vryse)
    and even in rest Greek koine we see words like βρυθω βοθρος and not Φρυθω Φοθρος)


    Now only the above are enough to a linguist to understand that Makedonian remained primitive IE Greek, more than the Aeolian, while rest of Greek evolute due to Pelasgian

    to enter more, man's organ top head is called Φαλλος Phallos, in Italian fallo, in Makedonian is Balanos (valanos) scientific name in Greek medicine and comparable with Belanos (balanos, those who know understand) the oak acorn.


    now from 1800 till 1980 many wrote political science, away from ancient writers like Strabo or Livius,
    I will not write Greek Historians cause some might say whatever,
    but after 1994 and Claude Brixhe work on Phrygian language, we know and we even can guess part Makedonian Language
    cause Makedonian was a primitive Greek language affected by Brygians (Thracians) on labioverals
    on the other hand we see a kind of terminus post quem with Aeolian
    for example Attic Θετταλος in Aeolian Φετταλος should turn to Γετταλος in Brygo-Makedonian, but keeps as Bettalos Vettalos
    so some *kw *gw *gwh follow other aspirations (compare Keltes Γελτες Celts Yell-tes Gaul-tes and Vlachoi Blachoi Belgae Walles Wallaches)
    MEANING THAT MAKEDONIAN ΒΕΤΤΑΛΟΣ AND ΚΕΒΑΛΙΝΟΣ (*ghebhel) ARE OLDER THAT AEOLIAN PHETTALOS and if follow Brygian Γεβαλινος,

    that makes Makedonian language more ancient and closer to IE sometimes more than Mycenean,
    which means that Makedonian belongs to primitive Northwest Greek languages which compined with a Brygian substratum or adstratum,

    to end about Makedonian,
    they could easily pass as a dialect or even a language but inside proto or pre Greek linguistic family,
    they kept more primitive IE forms than even Mycenean and were affected by Brygian thracian instead of Pelasgian
    to speak Makedonian in ancient Greek world is like to speak shakespearic English in USA, or primitive Latin in Brasil today

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    Koine Κοινη

    οκ
    everybody knows that,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    so in makedonian we see B Δ Γ (not BDG) instead of ΦΘΧ (Ph Th H/Ch)
    I won't comment on the entire post because it is quite immense, but I want to make a remark on this. You're completely wrong here: the letters Ββ Δδ Γγ were still pronounced as exactly that, /b/, /d/ and /g/ by the Hellenistic period. Its only in medieval (Byzantine) Greek that the letter Beta became to represent /v/. You simply can't make the assumption that Greek was always pronounced like it is today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I won't comment on the entire post because it is quite immense, but I want to make a remark on this. You're completely wrong here: the letters Ββ Δδ Γγ were still pronounced as exactly that, /b/, /d/ and /g/ by the Hellenistic period. Its only in medieval (Byzantine) Greek that the letter Beta became to represent /v/. You simply can't make the assumption that Greek was always pronounced like it is today.
    well that is still an arque.

    seems like Greek had b/d/Ph/g but until 1rst century BC, with max 300 AD, not Byzantine times
    it seems like Koine of Prolemians (Alexandreia Hellenistic ) turn that at first century BC, and enter V Δ at koine.
    a good example is word κραββατος a makedonian word for bed that replace Greek word κλινη, can you pronounce bb? or ββ is a mark of v+v=b?
    so the change b->v should happened to Makedonian much before, but enter koine at the times of Ptolemaioi at Alexandreia,
    remember Prolemaioi used until 2nd century BC Makedonian dialect/language as primary at the court,

    It seems Alexandreia played a big role on b->v ph->f due to Makedonian ancestry of Ptolemy
    and that spread easily due to new testament koine,
    christianity came from Alexandreia and Syrria Antiocheia to Greece, and Aegean, and Pergamos was in the land of Ionian dialect (ancestor of Attic and koine) so probably reject Makedonian easily at bibliotheque

    Anyway The last Makedonian dialect elements we know stop at 1rth century BC,
    after that seems enter koine, or conguer Koine via new testament

    But we have many jokes about Mακεδονιζειν at Αθηναιος Δειπνοσοφισται
    it seems Makedonians could not easy speak koine due that, all the words that used to make jokes on Makedonian have B/V and Φ/Ph and
    so indeed something was different
    compare the modern Spanish when speak S G etc with their accent although Celto-Latin language, or the word Mexico in Spanish in Mexican in Argentinian etc

    Makedonian must have very strong psilosis ψιλωσις and strange δασυνσις (h) to have B instead of Ph
    don't you think so?


    another argue is the Doric Ξ which might been Z as we found it at Grecani in Italy
    a turn of k+s to δ+s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    well that is still an arque

    seems like Greek had b/d but until 1rst century BC,
    it seems like Koine of Prolemians (Alexandreia Hellenistic ) turn that at first century BC, and enter V Δ at koine.
    a good example is word κραββατος a makedonian word for bed that Greek kick word κλινη, can you pronounce bb?
    so the change b->v should happened to Makedonian much before, but enter koine at the times of Ptolemaioi at Alexandreia,
    remember Prolemaioi used until 2nd century BC Makedonian dialect/language as primary at the court,
    The letters Phi (Φ/φ), Theta (Θ/θ) and Chi (Χ/χ) were pronounced as aspirates /pʰ/, /tʰ/ and /kʰ/ in archaic (e.g., Homeric) Greek and became later fricatives in the Hellenistic period. One example that Phi was still a plosive and not a fricative (yet) is how the word Phoinikioi (Φοινικιοι) became Punici in Latin.

    As concerns ancient Macedonian, in my opinion the language simply had /b/, /d/, /g/ in places where archaic Greek had /pʰ/, /tʰ/ and /kʰ/. Wether this is the effect of an adstratal influence, it is certainly possible.

    Another issue that should be brought up is about Mycenaean Greek: Mycenaean Greek had preserved Indo-European *kʷ and *gʷ (written in Linear B with the same signs, usually transcribed as "Q"), which were shifted to *p and *b later. Since *b was a rare phoneme in PIE, and PIE *bʰ was shifted to *pʰ in Proto-Greek, in most cases *b in archaic (Homeric) Greek actually derives from earlier *gʷ.

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    @ taranis

    in new testament we see Paulos write

    αββα ο πατηρ

    now we know that αββα is not a Greek word, we see it today as abbey, Abu in Arabs etc

    now we see double ββ to express what? a bb? no I doupt, he uses double ββ to express b as a code,
    so at the times of new testament b->β at least at the east parts of Hellenistic world,

    on controversary at the west we see word basilica Basilicata from Greek Βασιλικος,
    that means change b->β might not happened there or did not pass,
    or β->b due to Latin, although it is less possible.
    but it is certain that Makedonians did not expand in the West, so Hellenistic effect of koine was not so strong so they probably kept B/b
    that easy explains that in Antiocheia or in Alexandreia change b->β had happened
    and pass the rest Greek world via christianity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ taranis

    in new testament we see Paulos write

    αββα ο πατηρ

    now we know that αββα is not a Greek word, we see it today as abbey, Abu in Arabs etc

    now we see double ββ to express what? a bb? no I doupt, he uses double ββ to express b as a code,
    so at the times of new testament b->β at least at the east parts of Hellenistic world,

    on controversary at the west we see word basilica Basilicata from Greek Βασιλικος,
    that means change b->β might not happened there or did not pass,
    or β->b due to Latin, although it is less possible.
    but it is certain that Makedonians did not expand in the West, so Hellenistic effect of koine was not so strong so they probably kept B/b
    that easy explains that in Antiocheia or in Alexandreia change b->β had happened
    and pass the rest Greek world via christianity
    The short answer here is that "ˀabbā" is the Aramaic word for 'father' (its an example of where the New Testament uses Aramaic, the native language of Jesus, spelled out in Greek).

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Yetos asked me to clean up his thread. I left only posts related to ancient Greek language(s). Off topic posts were moved to Balkanian Disagreements thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...017#post468017
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A Video for the Greek language in times,

    Minoan is still unknown language, possibly not IE so excluded.

    you can the connectivity and the origins of dialects/para-languages,
    as the Hellenistic Koine which replace all other forms.


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