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Thread: Neolithic western Carpathian Basin - 356 pages

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    Neolithic western Carpathian Basin - 356 pages

    A big paper - 356 pages from june 2015

    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf



    This dissertation focuses on the Neolithic western Carpathian Basin

    (including western Hungary, also called as Transdanubia),andinvestigates

    its population history with molecular genetic methods.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    There's a bunch more Y DNA and mtDNA. Early Neolithic J2, E1b-M78, and I1 were found, along with typical G2a, F*(probably H or T), and I2. Arguable the biggest Y DNA find is R1b that predates Bell Beaker in Central Europe.

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    Lightbulb ANE K8 results for Allentoft Genomes

    K8 results for selected Allentoft et al. genomes

    Here the Results.

    Here's a spreadsheet of the Allentoft Samples.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...klwfsayW8/edit

    From Sweden/Estonia/Germany Corded Ware looks the same. Sintashta scores like Corded Ware, while Andronovo looks like it has more "Steppe".

    Both Hungarians come from the Vatya culture but score very differently. One is very low in ANE and WHG and very high in ENF, and one is somewhat low in ANE and very high in WHG(higher than Balts).

    The Remedello North Italian looks like Modern Sardinians. He's our best proxy for Pre-ANE Italians(at least North).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    There's a bunch more Y DNA and mtDNA. Early Neolithic J2, E1b-M78, and I1 were found, along with typical G2a, F*(probably H or T), and I2. Arguable the biggest Y DNA find is R1b that predates Bell Beaker in Central Europe.
    Where did you find that F* is H or T

    F3 was the old name for H1b ( current name ), was F3 also F* ?
    H1b1 was , IIRC one of the recent early iron age Thracians

    The 3 x G2a in the carpathian mountains seems to fit again with a very early migration of G2a into Europe

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    looks like a good review
    when I have a little time I will ...

    so many new data coming in these days
    which data are incorporated in this study? are Haak et al en Allentoft et al allready in?

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    which data are incorporated in this study? are Haak et al en Allentoft et al allready in?
    Haak 2015 - yes, but Allentoft 2015 - no.

    Arguable the biggest Y DNA find is R1b that predates Bell Beaker in Central Europe.
    Where can you see this?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    K8 results for selected Allentoft et al. genomes

    Here the Results.

    Here's a spreadsheet of the Allentoft Samples.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...klwfsayW8/edit

    From Sweden/Estonia/Germany Corded Ware looks the same. Sintashta scores like Corded Ware, while Andronovo looks like it has more "Steppe".

    Both Hungarians come from the Vatya culture but score very differently. One is very low in ANE and WHG and very high in ENF, and one is somewhat low in ANE and very high in WHG(higher than Balts).

    The Remedello North Italian looks like Modern Sardinians. He's our best proxy for Pre-ANE Italians(at least North).
    Very diligent and painstaking work as usual, Fire-Haired.

    However, as to the results, I have no idea what the "Near Eastern" represents.

    If we're trying to figure out the major population flows that formed Europeans, we should be using ancient samples. The Near Eastern component should either be Barcin, the farmer from ancient Anatolia, or, if that isn't high quality enough, Stuttgart, since that's almost the same, and then there would be a HG component represented by a Mesolithic European and ANE represented by Mal'ta,or maybe, since that's so old, by the Karelian EHG.

    This just confuses the issue. If what's aimed for by "Near Eastern" is Basal Eurasian, we have no idea what that is yet since we don't have a sample.
    Last edited by Angela; 30-06-15 at 04:50.


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    Two threads merged.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    I'm reposting this from something I put in the E-V13 related threads:

    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.


    The J2 was from 4990-4850 BC. One was found in Lengyel and one in Sopot culture.

    I'd love to say that it was late Neolithic because then I'd have come in under the wire by saying J2 could have come in during the Late Neolithic, but I've seen Lengyel described as a middle/late Neolithic culture. Kudos to Maciamo and LeBrok for holding out for a Neolithic entry of J2 into Europe.

    This puts that Bronze Age J2 and what seemed like his anomalous appearance in perspective. So much for he wandered up from Bronze Age Anatolia via the Aegean. The J2 could have been present there in Europe all along.

    There is also yDna "C" of uncertain origin...

    The question remaining is were J2 and E-M78, for example, present in the earliest Neolithic in the southern most regions of Europe, and just didn't move north until later, or were they a slightly different Neolithic population that entered even southern Europe slightly later than G2a?

    This is what the author has to say:
    "The three new NRY, J, C, and Eb1b1a signalize new population elements in the Sopot community, which subsisted during and after the Lengyel period of the region as well."

    "It's difficult to define the origin of these new components..."

    "The question is, why this group cannot be seen in the Early Neolithic of Transdanubia? Had it been there and remained undetected by chance? Alternatively, did J arrive with the first farmers and halted in southern Europe for a while (~1000 years) from where it dispersed in the Sopot period?"

    To be continued:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Where can you see this?
    This only indicates that R1b did not exclusively create BB ( as many many people thought ) if they are already in the area with the many varied LBK markers ( I1, I2, G2, T1, H1 etc )

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    Did I get this right?

    The early neolithic peoples in this area were G, F, and I. J, C, and E1b1b moved in for a while around 5000-3000 BC.

    32 remains from 7 sites that died between 5700 BC and 3900 BC were excavated and tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm reposting this from something I put in the E-V13 related threads:

    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.


    The J2 was from 4990-4850 BC. One was found in Lengyel and one in Sopot culture.

    I'd love to say that it was late Neolithic because then I'd have come in under the wire by saying J2 could have come in during the Late Neolithic, but I've seen Lengyel described as a middle/late Neolithic culture. Kudos to Maciamo and LeBrok for holding out for a Neolithic entry of J2 into Europe.

    This puts that Bronze Age J2 and what seemed like his anomalous appearance in perspective. So much for he wandered up from Bronze Age Anatolia via the Aegean. The J2 could have been present there in Europe all along.

    There is also yDna "C" of uncertain origin...

    The question remaining is were J2 and E-M78, for example, present in the earliest Neolithic in the southern most regions of Europe, and just didn't move north until later, or were they a slightly different Neolithic population that entered even southern Europe slightly later than G2a?

    This is what the author has to say:
    "The three new NRY, J, C, and Eb1b1a signalize new population elements in the Sopot community, which subsisted during and after the Lengyel period of the region as well."

    "It's difficult to define the origin of these new components..."

    "The question is, why this group cannot be seen in the Early Neolithic of Transdanubia? Had it been there and remained undetected by chance? Alternatively, did J arrive with the first farmers and halted in southern Europe for a while (~1000 years) from where it dispersed in the Sopot period?"

    To be continued:)
    the F* of lengyel and other areas



    whats left ?................T and L ydna haplogroups
    Last edited by Sile; 01-07-15 at 19:49.

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    [QUOTE=Salmon;461198]Did I get this right?

    The early neolithic peoples in this area were G, F, and I. J, C, and E1b1b moved in for a while around 5000

    Who the hell said that?
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    [QUOTE=Fluffy;461200][QUOTE=Salmon;461198]Did I get this right?

    The early neolithic peoples in this area were G, F, and I. J, C, and E1b1b moved in for a while around 5000

    Who the hell said that?

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    [QUOTE=Fluffy;461202][QUOTE=Fluffy;461200]
    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
    Did I get this right?

    The early neolithic peoples in this area were G, F, and I. J, C, and E1b1b moved in for a while around 5000

    Who the hell said that?
    It's in the paper, summary, analysis.

    Page 138
    Page 176

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    [QUOTE=Salmon;461203][QUOTE=Fluffy;461202]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post

    It's in the paper, summary, analysis.

    Page 138
    Page 176
    Thanks! I'll look it up.

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    nevermind..

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    It doesn't do us any good without knowing which J2 clade those samples are (J2a or J2b), as these two J2 clades clearly show different distribution patterns across SE Europe. The likeliest candidate is J2b, as this haplogroup has pretty similar distribution patterns as E-V13. Its ashame that they didn't test downstream of J-M172 and not leave us guessing.

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    So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It doesn't do us any good without knowing which J2 clade those samples are (J2a or J2b), as these two J2 clades clearly show different distribution patterns across SE Europe. The likeliest candidate is J2b, as this haplogroup has pretty similar distribution patterns as E-V13. Its ashame that they didn't test downstream of J-M172 and not leave us guessing.
    two have some sublineage of J2b-L283. YFull estimates L283 to have diversified 9800 ybp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the F* of lengyel



    whats left ?................T and L ydna haplogroups
    Tolm3 is H1-M69

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    Sile, that's what most "experts" think that they are J2b2 (J2b-L283), but i dont think they were tested downstream of J-M172 which is just J2. J2b2 seems the likeliest candidate, but I wouldn't make that conclusion just yet, unless a paper comes out later with more specific downstream SNPs of J-M172.
    Last edited by Trojet; 30-06-15 at 13:18.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Vudokav, I2a does have a Mesolithic age, but the I2a clade that has been found in the Balkans is called I2a-cts10228 "dinaric", which I think is no older than 2500 years, and it is thought to have originated somewhere in the Moldova region. How it got to the Balkans, is anyones guess at this point...unless it mutated in the Balkans then that's a different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.
    Vukodav, I dont think savagery can be claimed to any particular group as when our present world (say) in the last say 500 years will be analised (example) in 2000 years from now we would be termed as going through one of the worse periods of savagery in world history on all 5 continents, with ethnic cleansing, weapons of mass destruction, apartheids, subtle and obvious racial hatred + wars with the loss of millions of humans. And we will not be giving them much trouble to dig up the facts as they are well documented for them already

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    So those HGs. were already present during the Neolitich age. This means that Balkan people have very little Indo European blood (R1b+R1a) and the Bosniaks are mostly Mesolitich I2 natives. Nothing to do with Slavs and other savages from the North.
    Stop with the insulting terms for other groups or I'll happily issue an infraction. Last warning.

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