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Thread: Hg J2 M172 middle/late neolithic Hungary. (Sopot & Lengyel Culture)

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Hg J2 M172 middle/late neolithic Hungary. (Sopot & Lengyel Culture)

    "Three new haplogroups appeared at the turn of the Middle/ Late Neolithic in Transdanubia, the E1b1b1a1 (M78), the C (M216) and the J2 (M172). .... Haplogroup J2 (M172) has today its highest frequency in the Caucasus and Iraq (Mesopotamia), and in the geographic region of Levant. In early modern genetic studies, J2 (together with F and G) was claimed to be an indicator of the Neolithic expansion (Semino et al., 2000), based on the clinal pattern of its frequency among the modern European and Western Asian populations. The theory has been further specified since the early 2000ies, and frequency distribution plots and surface distribution maps have revealed the J2a (M410) (Sengupta et al., 2006) as a possible marker for early farmers’ eastward migration in Central Asia. Furthermore, the subgroup J2b (M12) has also been suggested as a marker for the European Neolithic expansion (King et al., 2008). Its less frequent occurrence in modern west Turkey (Cinnioğlu et al., 2004), but more frequent appearance in Greece has been even interpreted as an indication for a maritime route of Neolithic colonisation in South Europe (King et al., 2008). It is interesting, that J2 (M172) has not been detected in Neolithic context yet, and it is not present in the western Carpathian Early/Middle Neolithic dataset either. It might have come first with the people of the Late Neolithic cultures into Transdanubia, which means either that it is not the marker for the earliest dispersal of farmers, or that it halted in southeastern Europe for about millennium, before reaching the Carpathian Basin."
    Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin.
    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


    Image Source: http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/06...d-hungary.html




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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    So..., J2 is Neolithic after all! Was I right, or was I right?
    Are you going to amend the other thread about Romans spreading it? And when you at it, wherever I said Neolithic in my posts, give me a credit for a helpful hint.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    oddly enough even in current populations J2 and E-V13 have very similar distribution patters in Europe....if that means anything.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    oddly enough even in current populations J2 and E-V13 have very similar distribution patters in Europe....if that means anything.



    I think it does mean something. It means they both were in Greece and the Balkans, at least, before the Bronze Age.

    The remaining question is as Nagy hpothesized, and RHAS restated, whether they were in those areas in the early Neolithic and just didn't go north until the Middle/Late Neolithic, or whether this was a slightly different Neolithic group.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am glad that J2 finally showed up in Neolithic Europe. I wonder if it is J2a, J2b or even J2*. I'd guess rather J2b as it is the typical Balkanic subclade. I proposed a couple of years ago that J2b expanded from Anatolia to Southeast Europe during the Late Glacial period along with mtDNA J2a1, T1a1, T2a1b, T2b, T2e, T2f1, and some H subclades (H1, H3, H10, H11, H17, H45).

    So in my opinion, if this J2 is a J2b, he did not arrive with G2a Neolithic farmers, but sometime between 17,000 and 9,000 years ago. That would make of it a Mesolithic Balkanic haplogroup.

    As for E-M78, I have said for the last four years (since Lacan 2011's discovery of E-V13 in EN Spain) that it crossed from North Africa to Europe during the same Late Glacial period and can therefore be called Mesolithic Mediterranean. E-V13 surely arose in southern Europe soon after E-M78 crossed the Mediterranean. I still believe that E-V13 arose in southern Italy, not in the Balkans nor in Iberia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    oddly enough even in current populations J2 and E-V13 have very similar distribution patters in Europe....if that means anything.
    Similar distribution ? J2 peaks in region where E-V13 is very rare (Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus, Crete, Corsica, Volga-Ural, coastal North Africa) or not so common (Marche, Calabria, coastal Sicily). In contrast, E-V13 is far more common in the Balkans. The only notable overlap are in Albania-Kosovo, Greece and Italy (although regions often don't match) and in Andalusia. The only reason these regions match is that J2b expanded from Anatolia to the Balkans (Late Palaeolithic), J2a from Anatolia to Crete, Greece, southern Italy (Late Bronze Age), then with the Phoenicians to Andalusia, while E-V13 expanded from southern Italy to the Balkans, Iberia and the rest of Europe during the Neolithic and the Roman period. Italy and Greece just happened to be the convergence point between the two expansions. A very strong founder effect is responsible for the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Your theory makes no sense at all. If J2b had the skills to cross the Aegen sea, it surely would also have crossed the Med sea to Italy and Iberia. The current distribution of J2b is the result of an extreme bottleneck among Albanians/Vlachs and their migrations around the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think it does mean something. It means they both were in Greece and the Balkans, at least, before the Bronze Age.

    The remaining question is as Nagy hpothesized, and RHAS restated, whether they were in those areas in the early Neolithic and just didn't go north until the Middle/Late Neolithic, or whether this was a slightly different Neolithic group.
    Im inclined to believe so too, unless we find much older ancient samples in Italy which would confirm Maciamos theory that E-V13 was mutated in Italy hopping from Libya then hopping again to the adriatic and found fertile ground in the Agean to expand from there. Still sounds a little unrealistic and unprobable so far but everything is possible. Further ancient discoveries will give answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    Your theory makes no sense at all. If J2b had the skills to cross the Aegen sea, it surely would also have crossed the Med sea to Italy and Iberia. The current distribution of J2b is the result of an extreme bottleneck among Albanians/Vlachs and their migrations around the Balkans.
    Vukodav Maciamo is refering to E-V13 as crossing the Agean after crossing the Med to Southern Italy not J2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Similar distribution ? J2 peaks in region where E-V13 is very rare (Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus, Crete, Corsica, Volga-Ural, coastal North Africa) or not so common (Marche, Calabria, coastal Sicily). In contrast, E-V13 is far more common in the Balkans. The only notable overlap are in Albania-Kosovo, Greece and Italy (although regions often don't match) and in Andalusia. The only reason these regions match is that J2b expanded from Anatolia to the Balkans (Late Palaeolithic), J2a from Anatolia to Crete, Greece, southern Italy (Late Bronze Age), then with the Phoenicians to Andalusia, while E-V13 expanded from southern Italy to the Balkans, Iberia and the rest of Europe during the Neolithic and the Roman period. Italy and Greece just happened to be the convergence point between the two expansions. A very strong founder effect is responsible for the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today.
    I never said exact match but covers similar geographical regions in Europe with different percentages however similar all in all. Anatolia being the main exception.

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    It is interesting, that J2 (M172) has not been detected in Neolithic context yet, and it is not present in the western Carpathian Early/Middle Neolithic dataset either. It might have come first with the people of the Late Neolithic cultures into Transdanubia, which means either that it is not the marker for the earliest dispersal of farmers, or that it halted in southeastern Europe for about millennium, before reaching the Carpathian Basin."

    Doesn't really sound like they are convinced it came via the farmer expansion. But rather during late Neolithic/early Bronze Age with a different wave of people( probably West Asian type herders which is a form of agriculture anyways). If there is one branch which might have reached earlier the Balkans it is J2b. But J2a came during the Bronze Age imo.

    Especially the part that a J2 type agrictultural people moved into Central Asia makes me wonder if J2 will not have a "Central Asian type" herder aDNA. Probably similar to the Near Eastern in Yamna(rather "West Asian" than EEF).

    I always had this feeling that J2 crossed through Central Asia and the Caucasus into Europe, while G2a and E1b* etc directly from Anatolia or through the Mediterranean.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It is a shame that they didn't test downstream of J-M172. I do agree though that the likeliest candidate of these late Neolithic sites in Hungary is J2b, but I would hate to play the guessing game without any proof.

    As far as the E-M78 samples go, they have to be E-V13. If they indeed turn out as such E-V13 and J2b, big credit goes to Maciamo for always suggesting that these two spread since at least the Neolithic in SE Europe, while most people proposed a bronze age migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It is a shame that they didn't test downstream of J-M172. I do agree though that the likeliest candidate of these late Neolithic sites in Hungary is J2b, but I would hate to play the guessing game without any proof.

    As far as the E-M78 samples go, they have to be E-V13. If they indeed turn out as such E-V13 and J2b, big credit goes to Maciamo for always suggesting that these two spread since at least the Neolithic in SE Europe, while most people proposed a bronze age migration.
    V13's alive today have a Bronze Age TMRCA though, at least according to YFull estimates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Norman View Post
    V13's alive today have a Bronze Age TMRCA though, at least according to YFull estimates.
    Yes. Today's E-V13 in the Balkans is young. We wrote about it a lot, and data exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am glad that J2 finally showed up in Neolithic Europe. I wonder if it is J2a, J2b or even J2*. I'd guess rather J2b as it is the typical Balkanic subclade. I proposed a couple of years ago that J2b expanded from Anatolia to Southeast Europe during the Late Glacial period along with mtDNA J2a1, T1a1, T2a1b, T2b, T2e, T2f1, and some H subclades (H1, H3, H10, H11, H17, H45).

    So in my opinion, if this J2 is a J2b, he did not arrive with G2a Neolithic farmers, but sometime between 17,000 and 9,000 years ago. That would make of it a Mesolithic Balkanic haplogroup.

    As for E-M78, I have said for the last four years (since Lacan 2011's discovery of E-V13 in EN Spain) that it crossed from North Africa to Europe during the same Late Glacial period and can therefore be called Mesolithic Mediterranean. E-V13 surely arose in southern Europe soon after E-M78 crossed the Mediterranean. I still believe that E-V13 arose in southern Italy, not in the Balkans nor in Iberia.




    Similar distribution ? J2 peaks in region where E-V13 is very rare (Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus, Crete, Corsica, Volga-Ural, coastal North Africa) or not so common (Marche, Calabria, coastal Sicily). In contrast, E-V13 is far more common in the Balkans. The only notable overlap are in Albania-Kosovo, Greece and Italy (although regions often don't match) and in Andalusia. The only reason these regions match is that J2b expanded from Anatolia to the Balkans (Late Palaeolithic), J2a from Anatolia to Crete, Greece, southern Italy (Late Bronze Age), then with the Phoenicians to Andalusia, while E-V13 expanded from southern Italy to the Balkans, Iberia and the rest of Europe during the Neolithic and the Roman period. Italy and Greece just happened to be the convergence point between the two expansions. A very strong founder effect is responsible for the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today.
    from the leaks of searches done in paleolithic/neolithic Central North Greece,
    seems T is missing from both, Paleolithic nad epipalaiolithic (no neolithic in S Balkans)
    G2a and J2a seems to enter 5,5 ky from today and before, surely both existed at 3000 BC
    Sarakatsan tribe is the most older palaiolithic tribe with I1 and PC1
    comparable to Sardinians,

    no mention yet about nucleotid V13,
    strangely found R1 paleolithic, but still unatested so nothing to be taken serous

    yet waiting for publishing, so all the above are just unatested
    except
    surely T was missing in palaiolithic and epipalaiolithic continental Greece
    and G2a3a and J2a has a story of more than 5,500 years existance,
    and palaiolithic Greeks had brown hair and eyes!!!!!!!
    and a tone of darker skin than today
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    1) Can you go into the study & get the SNP's or contact the author to get the SNPs to confirm that the E-M78 from Sopot & Lengyel is V13? Also, considering the possible link between E-V13 & J2b, & I think there is a link (not other J2s, only J2b), it'd be great to find out if that Lengyel/Sopot J2 is in fact J2b as well. 2) Why do you think it is more likely that E-V13 crossed over from Tunisia to Italy? That seems to me more unlikely. Not far more unlikely, but definitely somewhat more unlikely. E-M78 is far more common in northern Egypt (west & east). Not only that, but if there was a co-migration (of M-78 & J2b together across the Mediterranean) this would make it that much more likely that the migration was along the south Anatolian coast all the way to Greece, or by island hopping through the Aegean. This is because J2 is pretty uncommon on the western North African plain too. J2 & E-M78 are far more common in north-eastern Africa. By the time you get to central Libya, you're entering -M81 territory & both J2 & E-M78 begin to really decline.
    Last edited by ESpraguer; 24-11-16 at 07:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes. Today's E-V13 in the Balkans is young. We wrote about it a lot, and data exist.
    There is a big difference between data and estimates. These skeletons are data. TMRCA numbers are estimates, not data. They involve assumptions about mutation rates, & various other assumptions. They've been way off before. I doubt the real time for the most recent common ancestor really was 5000 years ago in all of Europe for E-V13. However, I do suspect there was a big Bronze Age explosion of the clade which may account for this apparent very recent TMRCA, & which may very well account for a very large percentage of E-V13 throughout Europe. But it's important to note that TMRCA are basically mathematical models. They are not "data".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    oddly enough even in current populations J2 and E-V13 have very similar distribution patters in Europe....if that means anything.



    J2 & E-V13 don't have similar distributions, J2b & E-V13 do. I think they may have even made the journey to Greece or southern Italy together, directly from northern Africa.

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    J2 is more common in Italy than E1b1b, anyway I think E1b1b entered in Europe via Iberian peninsula and their 14 km of Gibraltar strait.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    J2 is more common in Italy than E1b1b, anyway I think E1b1b entered in Europe via Iberian peninsula and their 14 km of Gibraltar strait.

    J2 is slightly more common in Italy on the whole than E1b1b. J2 accounts for about 15-16% of all Italians, whereas E1b1b accounts for roughly 13-14%. However, regional numbers vary. There is slightly more E1b1b in the east & the north of Italy than J2. Central Italy is also a particular hotspot for J2.
    E1b1b has a pronounced eastern distribution in Europe. The relatively high levels of E1b1b in Spain are recent & partially the result of the Moorish period & influxes of Berber E-M81 into the region. The vast majority of E1b1b in Europe is E-V13 however. No one really knows how E-V13 (or its parent clade E-M78) got to Europe, but given its distribution it seems far more likely that it arrived via Anatolia or directly by boat via the Mediterranean from the North African plain. Again, it could have entered via Iberia, but its current distribution makes this unlikely. More likely it arrived somewhere in southern Italy 10,000 years or so ago, or island hopped via the Aegean islands.
    Last edited by ESpraguer; 12-03-17 at 08:14.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    J2 is slightly more common in Italy on the whole than E1b1b. J2 accounts for about 15-16% of all Italians, whereas E1b1b accounts for roughly 13-14%. However, regional numbers vary. There is slightly more E1b1b in the east & the north of Italy than J2. Central Italy is also a particular hotspot for J2.
    E1b1b has a pronounced eastern distribution in Europe. The relatively high levels of E1b1b in Spain are recently & partially the result of the Moorish period & influxes of Berber E-M81 into the region. The vast majority of E1b1b in Europe is E-V13 however. No one really knows how E-V13 (or its parent clade E-M78) got to Europe, but given its distribution it seems far more likely that it arrived via Anatolia or directly by boat via the Mediterranean from the North African plain. Again, it could have entered via Iberia, but its current distribution makes this unlikely. More likely it arrived somewhere in southern Italy 10,000 years or so ago, or island hopped via the Aegean islands.
    I largely agree with your summation of the issues as of now, except to say that some of the papers which show such a strong presence in central Italy of J2, and especially central, eastern Italy, are based on very small sample sizes. More extensive testing might change things a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I largely agree with your summation of the issues as of now, except to say that some of the papers which show such a strong presence in central Italy of J2, and especially central, eastern Italy, are based on very small sample sizes. More extensive testing might change things a little.
    Not to mention that J2 in central-eastern Italy is concentrated in the less populated regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not to mention that J2 in central-eastern Italy is concentrated in the less populated regions.
    Your point is very well taken. It also speaks to a larger problem with a lot of these studies & the reported haplo numbers on Eupedia. Often researchers will seek a diverse profile of a nation or ethnicity, so they'll go to the far-reaches of the geographic region to create a genetic profile. A good example is Greece. The vast majority of Greeks live on the mainland, not on islands. However, if you were interested in making a genetic profile of Greece, you might want to sample remote regions and islands, because doing so is highly informative. However, this will invariably skew the numbers toward the islands & away from the real proportions in the Greek population as a whole, because the islands will have very different genetic profiles & so island numbers will not be literally over-counted, but their impact will be disproportionate. If you wanted to make an accurate genetic profile of a nation or group, you'd have to take samples from particular regions in proportion to those regions' percentage of the whole population. Otherwise remote or unrepresentative regions are counted as if the numbers within them are no different from the rest of the areas sampled & end up having an outsized impact on the results. This speaks to the problem you're articulating in Italy, where less populated, rural regions might be typed, skewing the numbers toward the genetic makeup of those regions.

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