Politics Future of Greece

Greeks monetary future:

  • Greeks will stay in Eurozone

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • Greek will go back to Drachma

    Votes: 12 48.0%

  • Total voters
    25
Yetos
No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.

Thats what everyone hopes.

Why I believe in Greece? Greece has very smart and capable people, it is the most important resource. Greece has very good position in Mediterranean, all sea paths lead to Greece and via Balkans and Middle Europe is extraordinary link toward the heart of industry of Europe, Germany. Greece has a lot of friendly countries in the world which can help to exits from difficulties. Greece can attract large investments about which some others can only dream. Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.

Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.
 
That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.

Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.

That was a desicion of Angela,
which for 1rst time, after that I started to like/respect her,
 
Can you share few names with us?
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

All except Angela,
tuesday was a 4 hours tele-coferance among EUgroup and rest,
personally I expected Tsipras to sign the 25/06/2015 proposals
but ended again no solution,
After that only Angela accepting the choice of Greeks she declared that she will not speak again until referendum ends,
and force the rest not to openly discuss the subject,
told you it is the first time I could click a Like to her
 
Can you share few names with us?
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

"However German Chancellor Angela Merkel responded swiftly that Germany won't enter into new aid negotiations with Athens before Greece's weekend referendum, while her deputy urged the left-wing government to cancel the plebiscite."

http://news.yahoo.com/european-stock-markets-rally-greece-makes-proposal-113058749.html

"Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on Tuesday became the first European leader to openly back the departure of Greece's far-left government as he urged Greeks to accept bailout proposals in a crucial referendum."

http://www.thelocal.es/20150630/spanish-pm-backs-change-in-greek-government
 
I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

no
Buddism is a religion,
every religion inspires some fear,
that is Nikos Kazantzakis,
an untamed soul that was expelled by church when he wrote
''Jesus Christ re-crufified''
if you haven't read him, take a try,
he is fantastic

kazantzakis6.jpg



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis


there are 2 στηλαι tompstones stelae I like
one is the above
second is the 'πραττω ΚΑΤΑ ΤΟΝ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΕΑΥΤΟΥ'
meaning according my consious or my gurdian angel
Jim Morrison's tomp



 
I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

I think Yetos is right. Yes, Buddhism is non-theistic but it is religion. You must believe in achieving of nirvana (Sanskrit) or nibbana (Pali, language of Buddha). Nirvana is highest goal of attainment in Buddhism.

Of course, Buddhism has philosophical aspects. Buddhist experts think that Buddhism has and scientific aspects. They think Buddhism is science because it has scientific way of collecting information from experiences.

Buddhism is religion and philosophy (and perhaps science) but if we reject the religion Buddhism is no longer possible.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ghi-s-euro-nearer-reverse-as-solidarity-fades

"There is a tension in Europe between those, like Wyplosz, who see the need for an unambiguous lender of last resort, and those, such as Issing, who prefer a community of the self-reliant adhering to jointly-agreed rules."

"“The idea was to create an irrevocable monetary union that once you’re in, it’s forever,” said Charles Wyplosz, professor of economics at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva. “The permanence is very much in doubt, especially because you really don’t have a lender of last resort. Under certain circumstances, the central bank can drop you.”

“The illusion was and is that having joined the euro, it is irreversible,” said Otmar Issing, the German who in 1998 became the central bank’s first chief economist. “Mutual trust is certainly not there any more and it will be very difficult to restore it.”

"Issing argues that if Greece exits, other countries will have to pull themselves together to make sure it doesn’t happen again. He represents the school of thought, echoed by German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, that says the greater danger to the euro is the loss of credibility should the bloc bend its rules too much."

“If the Greeks can get away with the violation of all promises, commitments, then I think it will have a contagion effect on other countries,” Issing said. “Then we’ll be entering into a monetary union very different from what was intended. It will be the end of the zone of fiscal solidity.”



Prize Winning Economist Paul Krugman urges Greece to vote no in the referendum:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/29/krugman-greek-bailout_n_7687960.html

"I would vote no, for two reasons. First, much as the prospect of euro exit frightens everyone — me included — the troika is now effectively demanding that the policy regime of the past five years be continued indefinitely. Where is the hope in that? Maybe, just maybe, the willingness to leave will inspire a rethink, although probably not. But even so, devaluation couldn’t create that much more chaos than already exists, and would pave the way for eventual recovery, just as it has in many other times and places. Greece is not that different.

Second, the political implications of a yes vote would be deeply troubling. The troika clearly did a reverse Corleone — they made Tsipras an offer he can’t accept, and presumably did this knowingly. So the ultimatum was, in effect, a move to replace the Greek government. And even if you don’t like Syriza, that has to be disturbing for anyone who believes in European ideals."

They won't choose that, though...they'll blink, just like the Scots.
 
I really don't know too much about EU but I remember the Cyprus crisis when Greek Cypriots wanted to join Greece (childhood memory). Then the Turkish Cypriots appealed to Turkey and a civil war ensued and the Canadian Prime Minister came up with the brilliant idea of a force of "peace-keeping troops" with UN members. Prime Minister Lester Pearson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Greece bought German tanks and ships (maybe from France as well) and so Greece was indebted to Germany since for they didn't have the money to pay for the weapons. But seeing that Greece has a different economic system it seems so incongruent that it is part of Eurozone with Euro.
 
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Thats what everyone hopes.

Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.

Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.
 
Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.
We have to keep in perspective that financial crises are chronic in Greece. They went bankrupt 3-4 times in last 100 years. It might be some sort of record.
Many European countries are culturally attuned to bankruptcy. Indeed, Greece has spent approximately half of the 182 years since it achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in a state of default and therefore denied access to international capital markets – a position it is likely to resume in the very near future.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...countries-are-in-the-habit-of-going-bankrupt/
 
Financial Defaults in Europe.

Europe
  • Albania (1990)
  • Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
  • Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19])
  • Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed] 1990)
  • Croatia (1993–1996)[19]
  • Denmark (1813)[19] (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813)
  • France (1812)
  • Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19])
    • Hesse (1814)
    • Prussia (1807, 1813)
    • Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
    • Westphalia (1812)
  • Greece (external debt: 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22][23][24] domestic debt: 1932–1951[22])
  • Hungary (1932, 1941)
  • The Netherlands (1814)
  • Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
  • Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
  • Romania (1933)
  • Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] 1957,[19] 1991, 1998)
  • Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19])
  • Sweden (1812)
  • Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
  • Ukraine (1998–2000)[19]
  • United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19]
  • Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default
 
Financial Defaults in Europe.

Europe
  • Albania (1990)
  • Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
  • Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19])
  • Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed] 1990)
  • Croatia (1993–1996)[19]
  • Denmark (1813)[19] (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813)
  • France (1812)
  • Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19])
    • Hesse (1814)
    • Prussia (1807, 1813)
    • Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
    • Westphalia (1812)
  • Greece (external debt: 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22][23][24] domestic debt: 1932–1951[22])
  • Hungary (1932, 1941)
  • The Netherlands (1814)
  • Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
  • Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
  • Romania (1933)
  • Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] 1957,[19] 1991, 1998)
  • Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19])
  • Sweden (1812)
  • Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
  • Ukraine (1998–2000)[19]
  • United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19]
  • Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

Lebrok,

heh?
something wrong with the numbers,
the last bankrupt was in 1920'
it is the 4rth after 1821,
in fact at 1950's was so strong that Drachma was equal to Dollar
so I can not understand what wiki is saying,

it is the revolt loan (after 1821 till 1843)
the 1860's 70's war loan (Thessaly)
the Makedonian struglle war till minor Asian destruction around 1920's
and the today one,
the 1935-6 was a guided one until we decide with Allies or Axis (dictator Metaxas)
always at war times Greece is bankrupt, either due to a new loan, either by shelf determined,
the thing is that today we do not have a war,
modern one is from corruption
or we have a war and we do not see it?
the longest peace in Greece was 1974 till today and last 40 years
 
What baffles me about the Greek debt crisis is the huge amount (360 billions euros) that the Greeks borrowed compared to the country's population (11 million). That's 32,700€ per Greek citizen, children included. In other words, an average family of 4 people borrowed 130,000€. And now they are saying that they don't want to pay that back ? Worse, I hear today that they want €60 billions more ! Are they taking other Europeans for dupes or what ? Each European citizen (from the Eurozone) gave about 1000€ in taxes for the Greeks. If we excluded children, students, retired, disabled and unemployed people, each European tax payer gave something close to 2000€, which they may never get back (in other words their government will need to tax them more to balance their budgets).

Few people know that Greece already has one of the highest home ownership rate in Europe (over 75%), probably because the population hasn't increased a lot in the last few generations and the inheritance tax (10% up to 160.000 €) and property tax (0% up to 200.000€ and max. 2% for properties over 5 million €) are both very low by European standards. Some if 75% of Greeks already own their home and have virtually no tax on it, imagine what they could buy with an extra 130.000€ per household (prices in Greece at about twice lower than in the UK or US, so 130.000€ would be like $290.000 or £185.000).

Of course the money was borrowed by the Greek government, not directly by the citizens. But it doesn't matter, because ultimately the money is used to pay for pensions, education, healthcare, etc. and allows Greek citizens to lead an easy life with very little property or inheritance taxes, and a considerably lower income tax than in many other EU countries (e.g. Greek income tax ranges from 22 to 42% against 30 to 50% in Belgium, so 8% lower).

And after they have the balls to say they don't want to pay back their debts and ask for more ! Just unbelievable. I don't see how Greece could stay in the EU if they don't pay back most or all of their recent debts. That's just abusing other EU citizens. There will be too much long lasting resentment for them to stay.
 
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With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.
 
I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page to see who owns the Greek debt. Foreign banks only own 2.4 out of 360 billions. It's mostly other Eurozone countries that lent the money: 55 billion from Germany, 42 billion from France, 37 billion from Italy, 25 billion from Spain, etc. It's roughly always the same percentage to the country's GDP. The IMF lent an extra 32 billion but with money from EU countries.

I wonder how South Italian, Portuguese, Romanian or Bulgarian people, who are all poorer than the Greeks, feel about giving about 2000€ per tax payer to the Greeks in exchange for nothing. That doesn't seem fair at all.

As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.
 
11 million can never never repay any debt . do the sums, minus children and elderly , then what size is the workforce then?
The last industry they had was Onassis and his ship industry.

Far better to leave the EU, charge cheap foreign company tax to entice industry and get the Greeks to work in these industries. Something along the lines of what Macedonia has recently done.

staying in the EU enslaves the Greeks to remain a poor populace forever due to the fact the labour force will be required/forced to drop wages to entice foreign industry .........same finale as above, .........but without a chance to ever recover under the EU and remain the poor of the EU

A centralised government is another problem .............a problem that will also bite Italy very hard shortly...........centralised governments always fail , de-centralised Governments have far more success, ...Australia, USA, Germany etc
 
It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.

That's a different question.

The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

"While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
“You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...europe-s-number-1-rule-don-t-mess-with-merkel
 
That's a different question.

The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

"While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
“You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...europe-s-number-1-rule-don-t-mess-with-merkel

oh shut up please

Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
is it clear what Greeks are voting for?
 
oh shut up please

Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
is it clear what Greeks are voting for?

You wanna get personal little ...?!

It's just to point out the hypocricy of the liberal-democratic system, and of course those who support it gonna try to brush it away
 
University of Warwick has shown that high home prices have a direct relationship with unemployment. After the homes or buildings are completed there are no high-paying jobs except maybe hospital docters, university professors, TV, bankers and real estate agents. The land prices go up as high-rise developers can afford the high prices as they complete and manipulate land development. They buy up vacant land and keep it undeveloped and fund politicians who support them. When the demand for housing goes up they build with higher prices driving out factory jobs and other well-paying jobs with low paying jobs in the community like grocery stores, cinemas, boutiques and restaurants.

http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/1013bp_homeownership.pdf

http://www.cityam.com/215859/uk-house-prices-what-effect-does-unemployment-have-cost-home

http://www.independent.co.uk/incomi...in-areas-of-falling-unemployment-9295028.html
http://www.cityam.com/215859/uk-house-prices-what-effect-does-unemployment-have-cost-home


http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/1013bp_homeownership.pdf
 

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