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View Poll Results: Greeks monetary future:

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  • Greeks will stay in Eurozone

    12 48.00%
  • Greek will go back to Drachma

    13 52.00%
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Thread: Future of Greece

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.
    I think Yetos is right. Yes, Buddhism is non-theistic but it is religion. You must believe in achieving of nirvana (Sanskrit) or nibbana (Pali, language of Buddha). Nirvana is highest goal of attainment in Buddhism.

    Of course, Buddhism has philosophical aspects. Buddhist experts think that Buddhism has and scientific aspects. They think Buddhism is science because it has scientific way of collecting information from experiences.

    Buddhism is religion and philosophy (and perhaps science) but if we reject the religion Buddhism is no longer possible.

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    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lidarity-fades

    "There is a tension in Europe between those, like Wyplosz, who see the need for an unambiguous lender of last resort, and those, such as Issing, who prefer a community of the self-reliant adhering to jointly-agreed rules."

    "“The idea was to create an irrevocable monetary union that once you’re in, it’s forever,” said Charles Wyplosz, professor of economics at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva. “The permanence is very much in doubt, especially because you really don’t have a lender of last resort. Under certain circumstances, the central bank can drop you.”

    “The illusion was and is that having joined the euro, it is irreversible,” said Otmar Issing, the German who in 1998 became the central bank’s first chief economist. “Mutual trust is certainly not there any more and it will be very difficult to restore it.”

    "Issing argues that if Greece exits, other countries will have to pull themselves together to make sure it doesn’t happen again. He represents the school of thought, echoed by German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, that says the greater danger to the euro is the loss of credibility should the bloc bend its rules too much."

    “If the Greeks can get away with the violation of all promises, commitments, then I think it will have a contagion effect on other countries,” Issing said. “Then we’ll be entering into a monetary union very different from what was intended. It will be the end of the zone of fiscal solidity.”



    Prize Winning Economist Paul Krugman urges Greece to vote no in the referendum:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7687960.html

    "I would vote no, for two reasons. First, much as the prospect of euro exit frightens everyone — me included — the troika is now effectively demanding that the policy regime of the past five years be continued indefinitely. Where is the hope in that? Maybe, just maybe, the willingness to leave will inspire a rethink, although probably not. But even so, devaluation couldn’t create that much more chaos than already exists, and would pave the way for eventual recovery, just as it has in many other times and places. Greece is not that different.

    Second, the political implications of a yes vote would be deeply troubling. The troika clearly did a reverse Corleone — they made Tsipras an offer he can’t accept, and presumably did this knowingly. So the ultimatum was, in effect, a move to replace the Greek government. And even if you don’t like Syriza, that has to be disturbing for anyone who believes in European ideals."

    They won't choose that, though...they'll blink, just like the Scots.


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    I really don't know too much about EU but I remember the Cyprus crisis when Greek Cypriots wanted to join Greece (childhood memory). Then the Turkish Cypriots appealed to Turkey and a civil war ensued and the Canadian Prime Minister came up with the brilliant idea of a force of "peace-keeping troops" with UN members. Prime Minister Lester Pearson was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Greece bought German tanks and ships (maybe from France as well) and so Greece was indebted to Germany since for they didn't have the money to pay for the weapons. But seeing that Greece has a different economic system it seems so incongruent that it is part of Eurozone with Euro.
    Last edited by oriental; 03-07-15 at 20:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Thats what everyone hopes.

    Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.
    Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

    We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

    And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

    What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

    One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Maleth. Your question is small but very smart. And answer is longer. Actions depends of context.

    We must consider World economic crisis. And some analysts think new World economic crisis will start. In such situations of course decisions are not easy, on the contrary, decision makers must do with very hard issues and problems.

    And democracy has own weaknesses. Politician who is within the mandate knows that the time passes and wants to use what he can more. In next election he or she can lose and if didn't exploit within the mandate after that is nothing. Corruption is "general disease" today's politicians. And irresponsibility, laziness, cowardice, scandals and all the goes with it.

    What is medicine? In SFR Yugoslavia, which was socialist country, directors who embezzled a lot of money and went abroad, they had to hide, because they were never sure (from secret service). But of course, I'm not communist, and I'm not for such methods, but only give example.

    One interesting interview had German Minister Mr. Schauble. He spoke about limits of democracy. He is committed to control. And really, supranational communities and superstates, can enter mechanisms to control countries-members. For spending money, borrowing, corruption, and much more. Such mechanisms can have efects. But advocates of pure democracy wonder who will control the controllers and how non-elected institutions can be above elected institutions. You can see things are very complex, whether society should allow a reduction of democracy to better control or hold "status quo" with all consequences what we see.
    We have to keep in perspective that financial crises are chronic in Greece. They went bankrupt 3-4 times in last 100 years. It might be some sort of record.
    Many European countries are culturally attuned to bankruptcy. Indeed, Greece has spent approximately half of the 182 years since it achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in a state of default and therefore denied access to international capital markets – a position it is likely to resume in the very near future.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...oing-bankrupt/
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Financial Defaults in Europe.

    Europe
    • Albania (1990)
    • Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
    • Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19])
    • Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed] 1990)
    • Croatia (1993–1996)[19]
    • Denmark (1813)[19] (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813)
    • France (1812)
    • Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19])
      • Hesse (1814)
      • Prussia (1807, 1813)
      • Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
      • Westphalia (1812)

    • Greece (external debt: 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22][23][24] domestic debt: 1932–1951[22])
    • Hungary (1932, 1941)
    • The Netherlands (1814)
    • Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
    • Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
    • Romania (1933)
    • Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] 1957,[19] 1991, 1998)
    • Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19])
    • Sweden (1812)
    • Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
    • Ukraine (1998–2000)[19]
    • United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19]
    • Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Financial Defaults in Europe.

    Europe
    • Albania (1990)
    • Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
    • Austria (1938, 1940, 1945[19])
    • Bulgaria (1932,[citation needed] 1990)
    • Croatia (1993–1996)[19]
    • Denmark (1813)[19] (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813)
    • France (1812)
    • Germany (1932, 1939, 1948[19])
      • Hesse (1814)
      • Prussia (1807, 1813)
      • Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
      • Westphalia (1812)

    • Greece (external debt: 1826–1842, 1843–1859, 1860–1878, 1894–1897, 1932–1964, 2010–present;[22][23][24] domestic debt: 1932–1951[22])
    • Hungary (1932, 1941)
    • The Netherlands (1814)
    • Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
    • Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
    • Romania (1933)
    • Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,[19] 1957,[19] 1991, 1998)
    • Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936–1939[19])
    • Sweden (1812)
    • Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
    • Ukraine (1998–2000)[19]
    • United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)[19]
    • Yugoslavia (1983)[n 2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default
    Lebrok,

    heh?
    something wrong with the numbers,
    the last bankrupt was in 1920'
    it is the 4rth after 1821,
    in fact at 1950's was so strong that Drachma was equal to Dollar
    so I can not understand what wiki is saying,

    it is the revolt loan (after 1821 till 1843)
    the 1860's 70's war loan (Thessaly)
    the Makedonian struglle war till minor Asian destruction around 1920's
    and the today one,
    the 1935-6 was a guided one until we decide with Allies or Axis (dictator Metaxas)
    always at war times Greece is bankrupt, either due to a new loan, either by shelf determined,
    the thing is that today we do not have a war,
    modern one is from corruption
    or we have a war and we do not see it?
    the longest peace in Greece was 1974 till today and last 40 years
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  8. #33
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What baffles me about the Greek debt crisis is the huge amount (360 billions euros) that the Greeks borrowed compared to the country's population (11 million). That's 32,700€ per Greek citizen, children included. In other words, an average family of 4 people borrowed 130,000€. And now they are saying that they don't want to pay that back ? Worse, I hear today that they want €60 billions more ! Are they taking other Europeans for dupes or what ? Each European citizen (from the Eurozone) gave about 1000€ in taxes for the Greeks. If we excluded children, students, retired, disabled and unemployed people, each European tax payer gave something close to 2000€, which they may never get back (in other words their government will need to tax them more to balance their budgets).

    Few people know that Greece already has one of the highest home ownership rate in Europe (over 75%), probably because the population hasn't increased a lot in the last few generations and the inheritance tax (10% up to 160.000 €) and property tax (0% up to 200.000€ and max. 2% for properties over 5 million €) are both very low by European standards. Some if 75% of Greeks already own their home and have virtually no tax on it, imagine what they could buy with an extra 130.000€ per household (prices in Greece at about twice lower than in the UK or US, so 130.000€ would be like $290.000 or £185.000).

    Of course the money was borrowed by the Greek government, not directly by the citizens. But it doesn't matter, because ultimately the money is used to pay for pensions, education, healthcare, etc. and allows Greek citizens to lead an easy life with very little property or inheritance taxes, and a considerably lower income tax than in many other EU countries (e.g. Greek income tax ranges from 22 to 42% against 30 to 50% in Belgium, so 8% lower).

    And after they have the balls to say they don't want to pay back their debts and ask for more ! Just unbelievable. I don't see how Greece could stay in the EU if they don't pay back most or all of their recent debts. That's just abusing other EU citizens. There will be too much long lasting resentment for them to stay.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...
    It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.
    Scroll down to the bottom of this page to see who owns the Greek debt. Foreign banks only own 2.4 out of 360 billions. It's mostly other Eurozone countries that lent the money: 55 billion from Germany, 42 billion from France, 37 billion from Italy, 25 billion from Spain, etc. It's roughly always the same percentage to the country's GDP. The IMF lent an extra 32 billion but with money from EU countries.

    I wonder how South Italian, Portuguese, Romanian or Bulgarian people, who are all poorer than the Greeks, feel about giving about 2000€ per tax payer to the Greeks in exchange for nothing. That doesn't seem fair at all.

    As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.

  11. #36
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    11 million can never never repay any debt . do the sums, minus children and elderly , then what size is the workforce then?
    The last industry they had was Onassis and his ship industry.

    Far better to leave the EU, charge cheap foreign company tax to entice industry and get the Greeks to work in these industries. Something along the lines of what Macedonia has recently done.

    staying in the EU enslaves the Greeks to remain a poor populace forever due to the fact the labour force will be required/forced to drop wages to entice foreign industry .........same finale as above, .........but without a chance to ever recover under the EU and remain the poor of the EU

    A centralised government is another problem .............a problem that will also bite Italy very hard shortly...........centralised governments always fail , de-centralised Governments have far more success, ...Australia, USA, Germany etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It doesn't matter whether Greek people think they should pay back their debt or not. They have to. They are bound by the law (contract) and by honour. If they don't care for either, then they certainly shouldn't be in the EU, nor should anyone do business with them anymore. That applies for any country, company or individual, not just for Greece now.
    That's a different question.

    The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

    "While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
    “You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ss-with-merkel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    That's a different question.

    The point is that other European leaders try to interfere in a democratic process of another country.

    "While Merkel disputes that she seeks to interfere in other countries, her influence isn’t universally welcomed at home.Gregor Gysi, parliamentary leader of Germany’s anti-capitalist Left party, on Wednesday alleged that Merkel is trying to foment regime change in Athens.
    “You want to get rid of the leftist government in Greece, that’s your goal,” Gysi said in a parliamentary debate. He cited Merkel’s refusal to engage in aid negotiations before the referendum. “That’s the proof. It’s because you hope that the government will fall on Sunday,” he said."

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ss-with-merkel
    oh shut up please

    Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
    the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

    there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
    one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
    and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

    and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
    is it clear what Greeks are voting for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    oh shut up please

    Gysi is just a clown trying to turn the whole story into a complot theory
    the sad thing is, there are so many such clowns in modern politics and even among academics

    there are some economic laws you cannot ignore
    one of them is that when you borrow money, one day you'll have to pay it back
    and in order to do so, you have to invest your money wisely

    and what a stupid refenrendum is this anyway?
    is it clear what Greeks are voting for?
    You wanna get personal little ...?!

    It's just to point out the hypocricy of the liberal-democratic system, and of course those who support it gonna try to brush it away

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    University of Warwick has shown that high home prices have a direct relationship with unemployment. After the homes or buildings are completed there are no high-paying jobs except maybe hospital docters, university professors, TV, bankers and real estate agents. The land prices go up as high-rise developers can afford the high prices as they complete and manipulate land development. They buy up vacant land and keep it undeveloped and fund politicians who support them. When the demand for housing goes up they build with higher prices driving out factory jobs and other well-paying jobs with low paying jobs in the community like grocery stores, cinemas, boutiques and restaurants.

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    http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/101...eownership.pdf

  16. #41
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    it is not the amount that Greeks took so high

    the loans that Greece took is estimated 30 billion by Greeks
    40 Billion according rest
    60 billion according bankers
    it is the game of rate and the birth
    for example the Goldman sachs loan that the bastard Semites prime minister took was 6 billion 1rst pay after 2006 but rate reaching 13% after 2010
    a total of 36 billion from 6 billion capital till 2030 if I remember correct
    Greece as all south European countries borrowed with annual rate of 6-7% while Deutschland with 1,5%
    the main difference among Greece and Deutschland is that Germany took loans with 1,5% rate, and sell to Greece via EU with 4,5%
    WHAT ANGELA WANTS IS THE DIEFFERENCE AMONG 1,5% to 4,5%

    I can give you sources, as many as you like

    GREEKS ARE NOT DENYING THEIR DEPTH
    GREEKS ARE DENYING THE BIRTH OF THE LOANS DUE TO DIFFERENT RATES
    the loans reach 6-8 times the quantity of capital money,



    you can read the follow to understand

    http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-counting-problem/



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    As Lebrok said, if the debt is wiped by reprinting more money, other weak (or opportunistic) economies will follow and the Eurozone will collapse. That's why this Greek debt crisis is such a big issue. 360 billion is merely a drop (0.4%) in the world economy (77 trillions), but a Greek default has to potential to cause another worldwide market crash because of the long-term consequences it would have on the EU unity and the risk of default of bigger countries like Italy and Spain. The Greeks are really playing with fire and I have a feeling that they are completely oblivious (or naive) about it. They are willing to jeopardise the health and future of Europe for their own selfish short-term profit. That's why I think that the only way to deal with a Greek default is to kick them out of the EU (without wiping off the debt) to give a clear message to other countries that would contemplate a default of their own.
    If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
    It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
    I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
    Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?

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    yo guys

    ΦΟΒΟΥ ΔΑΝΑΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΩΡΑ ΦΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ
    Fear the Greeks even when they carry gifts

    it is more complicated

    the chain reaction will be tremendous in East Europe and Balkans,
    Even in Georgia they feel the earthquake


    Besides the COST OF FREEDOM IS EXPENCIVE

    ΑΚΡΙΒΟΝ ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑΣ ΤΙΜΗΜΑ

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
    It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
    I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
    Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?
    I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done.

    Yesterday Tsipras asked for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea. Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter, commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end, as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

    So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If Greeks are kicked out off Eurozone, they won't repay their debt at all. Whether EU financiers like it or not. If EU and IMF were the only financial sector in the world, Greeks not paying the debt wouldn't be able to get any more money, neither loans nor investments. This would be a very harsh reality for the default indeed. However, in today's world, they will still have access to fresh money from other financial centers, the Russians and Chinese, just to mention couple, and the investment capital brought by companies doing business in Greece.
    It is actually not a bad thing to get a second chance. What would happen if Greeks were stuck with this huge debt for decades? Decades of economic stagnation would hunt them, with their lives miserable, and huge unemployment. It wouldn't be good for Greeks, and neither for Europe.
    I'm not too crazy about punishing Greeks harshly for their financial mess. They are in big trouble already, very stressed out, and their pride is scared forever, well almost.
    Fresh start, a sort of reboot, might be in place. Though one uneasy thought rumbles around my head. Will they do any better with this fresh chance? Did they learn what not to do, what to avoid? Will they be in the same place in 20 years, blaming the rest of the world for their screwups?
    The debt will never be paid back, Europe ESFS, IMF and few others lost all that money
    Greece won't find any other financer before they restructure themselves.
    Putin has made an agreement for a pipeline to Greece but he said he wouldn't give any loans nor an advance payment for the pipeline. He would be stupid to do so.
    Maybe they'll pay to rent some military base in Greece if Greece leaves EU, but that won't cover the expenses Greece is making every year.

    So I expect outstanding loans to Greece are lost.
    Nobody will give money to Greece untill Greece is more or less in financial equilibrium again, which means Greece will have to restructure.
    As Greece has also destroyed its own economy buy spending all that money unproductively, harsh times are awaiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    First of it's the matter of principle. When Western modern liberal-democratic establishment and media buzzes non-stop in everybody ears around the world about how wonderful liberal-democracy is then they should not try to silence people's voice.

    I am no advocate of lefties but the Greek government wants the support of the population for the crucial decision, so that they share the responcibility of all the consequences to come.

    Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.
    The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

    A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
    The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
    Instead they are telling lies.
    They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
    None of it is true.
    Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

    The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

    Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

    Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
    It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

    And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The refendum is held within a weeks notice and without a proper formulation of the question neither proper information

    A refenrendum is supposed to be held with at least 2 weeks notice so that the voters can inform themselves.
    The organisers are supposed to inform the voters properly.
    Instead they are telling lies.
    They told the Greeks secret negotatiations with EU were going on and solution was imminent.
    None of it is true.
    Because of only 1 week notice, no undependent observation of the organistation of the referendum nor of the counting of the votes can be organised which leaves the door wide open for fraud.

    The sole purpose of this referendum is to give Tsipras legitimacy which he's losing rapidly now.

    Do you call this democracy? It's a farce.

    Furthermore some politicians and academics try to victimise Tsipras in order to defend his leftist anarchistic doctrine.
    It is this doctrine which in the past was responsible for so many more victims than nazism or fascism ever made.

    And yes, it's getting personal. I guess you're becoming a victim of this victimisation too.
    Victim, whiner and coward are characteristics of liberals, so you better look in the mirror.

    I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe

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    yes it's becoming very personal

    dream on

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    Varufakis: 'What they (the creditors) are doing with Greece is a terrorism'

    http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2015/...d048b459e.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes it's becoming very personal

    dream on
    Lol, talks one of the dreamers whose house of cards is about to collapse

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