Future of Greece

[Kardu]

Short resume of what's going on in Greece and why. Although the author somehow forgets to mention that French and German banks started to lend to Greece in order make easy money for themselves. Just like American banks gave mortgage credit to minorities which led to 2008 collapse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-a-huge-crisis

[ElHorsto]

The "help" for Greece was bound to conditions, or not? So which were these conditions and did Greece fulfill them? I guess they fulfilled them else Troika would have stopped money, not? Also the majority of new debt was received and "investested" by the preceding governments.
Whether greeks are lazy or not, or unable or whatever, it is not relevant. There was > 5 years to monitor what Greece is doing with the "help" and to apply meaningful conditions. Yet Greece became the most armed country in europe during that time with more debt than before. Why is that? Could it be that EUlites once more deliberately closed their eyes like they did when Greece entered EURO?
I can understand that Tsipras and Varoufakis want to end this nonsense "help". Meanwhile they try to squeeze out to the maximum, which is not surprising as they've been elected for a change. I don't know what T and V plan, but it is possible that they are currently executing their plan for an expensive Grexit. The referendum is understandable because any decision will have harsh consequences. But the referendum is also dangerous because it can break-up Greece like Ukraine.
Not paying debt is no problem, it happened several times, look at Iceland.

[ElHorsto]

Short resume of what's going on in Greece and why. Although the author somehow forgets to mention that French and German banks started to lend to Greece in order make easy money for themselves. Just like American banks gave mortgage credit to minorities which led to 2008 collapse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-a-huge-crisis

Exactly, it is a business model. Greece is a drainage for tax money.

[LeBrok]

I personally welcome this crisis because it's gonna end the stagnation and usher a period of new opportunities in Europe

Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?

[Kardu]

Let the spirituality lead the economy. Did you ever apply for a prophet job?

Wut?! Twisted messianism and "fixing the world" is your and your ideological comrades' calling and job, so you too can look in the mirror ;)

[Yetos]

Not by me

The difference? According to Germany, using the Maastricht Standard, Greece owes about $350 billion. But if the Greek net debt were to be calculated using International Public Sector Accounting Standards (IPSAS), it could be as low as $36 billion — a small fraction of the political number. In other words, there is a strong case to be made that Greece owes Germany far, far less than Germany and the EU creditors are claiming.

But May and Benson’s world faded in the 70s and 80s with decline of ethical standards in the accounting industry. Most importantly now, the Big Four accounting firms have stepped back from their role of leadership in maintaining these international standards; rather than entering the fray of politics, major accountants are standing on the sidelines. The reason is similar to the problem that was highlighted by the Enron scandal: They work not to insist that independent standards be kept, but rather as hired hands who execute contracted technical missions.

If leading accountants were to step in as the mediators May envisioned, the Greek debt talks would have more credible metrics with which to frame Europe’s existential debate. But for this, accounting companies and the nations they work with are going to need to rethink the role of accountants. Are they going to return to their role as financial leaders, or will they remain secondary, but well-remunerated, hired hands?



my personal

BANKSTERS KNEW THAT THE TOTAL IS NOT VITAL, BUT KEPT LOAN AND LOAN WITH HIGH RATES,
WE HAD LEARNED WITH SUCH, AND WE WERE WILLING FOR MORE,
BUT THE CAPITAL IS ALREADY PAID 3 TIMES, SO EITHER THEY DELETE THE EXTRAS FROM RATES AND BIRTHS,
EITHER BUY BUY.

the sytem that created in Venice and later gave Rothschild must take an end.
merchants of nation are not welcome anymore
either ethnical states economies,
either full capitalism and corporations and no borders
we must choose,
and maybe we start this for you, cause soon you will face it
we must not treat our shelves like that,
corporations and bankers must not use goverments and states to get richer,
let them make their own mechanisms of money gather,
do not let them use state mechanisms build by your taxes.

[oriental]

In Canada the government doesn't follow accounting rules either. Funds that were created for specific purposes were lumped into general revenue by the government of the day thus funds were just cash cows i.e. hidden taxes. What to do? This is how the honesty disappears.

Cyprus cannot be isolated from Greek politics so here is the Cyprus Civil War

http://www.whatson-northcyprus.com/h...dependence.htm

https://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1...cyprus1963.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute

[Kardu]

To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?

[LeBrok]

To attention of other Admins: is LeBrok free to give infractions for the posts he doesn't like?

I agree. I don't like rude and abusive posts and people.

[LeBrok]

I disagree. I have some experience in dealing with people who borrow a lot and can't repay their debts and know their type. They are usually people who profit from the system, knowing from the start, before they get a loan, that they will never repay their debts. They typically ask for more loans to repay the previous loans, then don't repay them either. I am certainly not saying that all Greeks or most Greeks are like that, but the few decision makers in the Greek government may well be. Unfortunately, as they are the ones in charge, nothing can be done.

Personally, I'm fiscally conservative, and I always honor my obligations, regardless if written or verbal. Deal is a deal. Having said that, I can see some circumstances where more lenient approach to borrowing and investing might be in place.

- Debt forgiving creates a second chance for personal betterment and future taxable citizen.
- Debt forgiving, reduction, allows a country to grow economically, to have money for grants for investments and R&D, free post secondary education, kindergartens, etc.
- In investing/creating environment, debt forgiving let's creative individuals to try new idea again and again. Otherwise if one fails one gets stigma of failure and his carrier, as inventor is over. We know that even the best geniuses fail sometimes. I'm starting to subscribe to the idea that "It is ok to fail".

In Greece case, however, I'm not sure that if we forgive their debt, they will not try something new instead, and we'll be back to square one again in 20 years.

Yesterday Tsipras asked for a 20 year grace period. That's a full generation. I would expect no less from someone who wasn't willing to repay any of his debts. Who knows what the world will be like in 20 years. Actually we have a good idea. Robots will be running most of the economy. People with enjoy universal income and won't have to work anymore. There will be vertical farms, free energy (extremely cheap solar), free satellite Internet, nearly free 3-D printed goods of any kind, programmable matter, commonplace gene therapy and genetic engineering, conscious AI, and so on. I won't be a world that we can recognise today. There won't be any capitalist economy anymore. Ray Kurzweil prediced that the singularity would take place around 2045, which is only in 30 years, and if we don't plan this extremely well, humanity may well come to an end, as Larry Page, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking and many other top scientists and technology leaders fear.

So this 20 year grace period is just a last chance to enjoy themselves before the end of society as we know it. Intelligent people know that, and I would be extremely surprised if other EU leaders didn't see through that plan to never repay their debts.

The paradigm shift is coming soon. Probably sooner than we expect. The most difficult thing will be the lose of taxpayers, as most people won't work anymore. The money flow as we know it will be screwed up. Perhaps a back door communism?

[Yetos]

The paradigm shift is coming soon. Probably sooner than we expect. The most difficult thing will be the lose of taxpayers, as most people won't work anymore. The money flow as we know it will be screwed up. Perhaps a back door communism?

I doupt about a back door communism,
yet the problem in Greece is that more than 43% surely (govermental and public issue workers) fed by state, is like communism
I must agree that only communistic countries had such numbers.

on the other hand the right to keep loans at low multiple amounts and reduce the rates,
even to stop the stupidity of loan to a country, and then use the ethnic /state mechanism to collect multiple times the amount is something that must stop
Rothschild system of harrasing ethnic wealth, by getting 10-20 times the loan must stop,

FREE WORLD STOP WHEN VENICIAN SYSTEM IS IN ACT,
cause by that system you ask a 'piece of body flesh' by people who just never took something from you, just because they belong somewhere,

YOU ARE NOT FREE, WHEN YOU OWN TO SOMEONE,

SO VENICIAN SYSTEM AND ITS LATER EXPAND BY ROTHSCHILD IS KILLING FREE WORLD,

[Djordjo]

Greece was one of the key NATO countries and capitalst block intentionally pumped it with money in order to prevent socialist revolution and to show neighbouring countries that capitalism is great. Western banks continued this in even larger extent after desintegration of socialist block for about two decades, but today, western countries want to cut this because debt has gone too far

[bicicleur]

I doupt about a back door communism,
yet the problem in Greece is that more than 43% surely (govermental and public issue workers) fed by state, is like communism
I must agree that only communistic countries had such numbers.

on the other hand the right to keep loans at low multiple amounts and reduce the rates,
even to stop the stupidity of loan to a country, and then use the ethnic /state mechanism to collect multiple times the amount is something that must stop
Rothschild system of harrasing ethnic wealth, by getting 10-20 times the loan must stop,

FREE WORLD STOP WHEN VENICIAN SYSTEM IS IN ACT,
cause by that system you ask a 'piece of body flesh' by people who just never took something from you, just because they belong somewhere,

YOU ARE NOT FREE, WHEN YOU OWN TO SOMEONE,

SO VENICIAN SYSTEM AND ITS LATER EXPAND BY ROTHSCHILD IS KILLING FREE WORLD,

that's correct
politicians spend all the money they can get into all kinds of popular projects
they hope it will get them re-elected
and they leave the next generation with lots of debts to pay back

[Kardu]

I agree. I don't like rude and abusive posts and people.

You are really sad aren't you? Apart from being unjust, childish and totalitarian.

[LeBrok]

Sounds like No won at 60%.

Now what? Change all Euros to Drachmas in Greek banks computers and open the banks? Should it be so easy?

I guess before this happens, Greek government will try to get a super sweet deal from Eurozone first.

[LeBrok]

Greece was one of the key NATO countries and capitalst block intentionally pumped it with money in order to prevent socialist revolution and to show neighbouring countries that capitalism is great. Western banks continued this in even larger extent after desintegration of socialist block for about two decades, but today, western countries want to cut this because debt has gone too far

You are reading too much into it. It is not about NATO, or Eurozone, or capitalism. Greeks borrowed too much money, and now they can't pay it back, that's all.

[Yetos]

You are reading too much into it. It is not about NATO, or Eurozone, or capitalism. Greeks borrowed too much money, and now they can't pay it back, that's all.

No my Friend,

BANKSTERS GAVE TOO MUCH MONEY TO GREECE, CHARMED BY HIGH RATES,
Greed apetite for more!!

it is time banksters to take a lesson, and not create Ethnic destructions any more.

and do not dare to accuse me for communism any more,
THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN COMMUNISM
THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN BANKING CAPITALISM


PS
we might turn to bitcoins, who knows!!!

[Sile]

To be in the EU , you need to work as hard as the hardest workers, if you cannot keep up , then you are left behind.
The Greeks could not do that, they joined thinking the EU was a holiday, they lived beyond theirs means.

Italy too, falsified their books to get into the EU........we will see in the next decade what happens to them. But to charge 53% company tax, when your neighbours, Slovenia, Austria ( EU members) charge 33% means Italian companies have gone abroad. Albania, not in the EU has gained by Italian companies setting up industries there.

Don't worry Greeks, Italian business will be knocking at your door once the dust settles.

[LeBrok]

No my Friend,

BANKERS GAVE TOO MUCH MONEY TO GREECE, CHARMED BY HIGH RATES,
Greed apetite for more!!

Greek promised to pay it back, right?

[Yetos]

Greek promised to pay it back, right?

they knew that would not take them back didn't they?
but their greed now wants land and oil and ports and trains and highway,

their greed was so much, that blind them, asking 10 times more the amount of capital,
while they knew that Greek economy was trebling and non vital,

a loan is always risky,
a good bank ask what you have if you can not pay?
what these Banksters ask? for secure?
peoples death? or harrasing their few saved economies?

in fact that might a chance for EU to understand and realize the different rates and what Banksters and corporations can do to states,
and take control of capitalistic anarchy

PS
would you give a friend money with high rates when you know he can not pay back?

[ElHorsto]

After that only Angela accepting the choice of Greeks she declared that she will not speak again until referendum ends,
and force the rest not to openly discuss the subject,
told you it is the first time I could click a Like to her

She always manages to escape trouble in the last moment.

[Angela]

The EU and the banks and investment houses and the Greek politicians were all complicit in this. Nobody has clean hands.

I know something about real estate in the U.S. It used to be that to get a home loan you had to put up 25% of the value of the home, and your mortgage payments couldn't be more than one quarter of your monthly take home pay. Then, all of a sudden the banks were giving out loans with nothing down, no collateral, no credit checks, no income checks, nothing. Part of the reason was the desire to give all Americans the ability to own a home, so the government was providing all this money for loans. Banks took the easy money. Loan officers would get bonuses for every mortgage they produced. Prices started climbing. Speculators got into the act.

Some lenders bought into the illusion that people would somehow pay, and if not, you could just take back the value of the house, which was always rising. Some knew the danger, but they knew how to minimize it as well, selling the mortgages to less savvy people as soon as possible.

Everybody knows the rest of the story.

This wasn't so different. The EU knew the accounts were false, so did the investment banks, and so did the Greek politicians. There was no way that a country of 11 million with their type of economy was ever going to be able to pay it back. Where are the oil fields like Scotland's, or the coal or the rich farmland? The only way that it could have worked was if there had been investment into the Greek economy, but there wasn't. The banks just wanted their interest payments.

In the U.S. a couple of companies went under, but the government stepped in to bail out the rest of the banks, because they were "too big to fail". I was against it, but maybe there was a little bit of justice in it, because the government was complicit in what went on.

In the case of Greece, it wasn't too big to fail, so they let it fail.

Is this really what they intended to happen, however?

Bankruptcy, both individual and corporate, happens all the time. The creditors here almost always make the best of a bad situation and try to help the creditor regroup so that the loan is not a total loss. Companies often voluntarily go into court to get the debt restructured so they can get back on their feet. That's the practical, business like approach. It seems to me that in this case emotion ruled, emotion based on nationalistic feelings as much as anything else.

On the other hand, the debtor has to have some understanding that it has to restructure and has to work toward paying back the loan or at least the reduced loan. I don't see any such willingness on behalf of the Greek people. They've been fed a load of fantasy by their leaders that somehow the money will magically appear or fall from the trees to fund their social welfare state. You have to produce money in order to spend money on these things.

So, I'm not sanguine about Greece's prospects under this extreme socialist government. They know less about economics than a four year old. Have Europeans learned nothing from the last hundred years? Socialism doesn't work. You just all wind up poor together.

[Yetos]

She always manages to escape trouble in the last moment.

well she is good,
respectable enemy or ally, however you see it,

[LeBrok]

they knew that would not take them back didn't they?
but their greed now wants land and oil and ports and trains and highway,

their greed was so much, that blind them, asking 10 times more the amount of capital,
while they knew that Greek economy was trebling and non vital,

a loan is always risky,
a good bank ask what you have if you can not pay?
what these Banksters ask? for secure?
peoples death? or harrasing their few saved economies?

in fact that might a chance for EU to understand and realize the different rates and what Banksters and corporations can do to states,
and take control of capitalistic anarchy

PS
would you give a friend money with high rates when you know he can not pay back?

I gave money to friends without interest and they pay when they can.

Are you saying that Greeks were friends with IMF? I don't think it was about making friends, but doing business. They gave money with high interest rate, because they knew it is a risky business with Greek economy and government. Well, they were right.

[Garrick]

Socialism doesn't work.

In Yugoslavia invented self managing socialism, what didn't exist in the world. It was system where social ownership of the means of production was dominant, not state property as in countries of socialist block. System worked and gave certain results. Yet it has demonstrated some weaknesses. One of main weaknesses was that enterprises had both economic and social function. At the time of prosperity that is able to function and achieves results despite the demonstrated weaknesses. But when economy began to decline it proved to be unsustainable. However, interesting socio-economic experiment, someone can learn its advantages and disadvantages.

Capitalism generally is better system. I think it creates a more responsible behavior of market participants. Capitalism can be sustainable but it must take into account the wither aspects including environmental protection, resource constraints, influence of industry on climate etc. Economic crisis has revealed some weaknesses of capitalism. When such situations happen usually opportunities for inventions occur in large scale. Human nature is not perfect, all of us are well-known market participants who seek a variety of ways to cheat and corrupted politicians who say one thing and do another. But people are creative by nature too, people can creating something new, and I do not doubt that people will find ways to overcome the crisis and for further prosperity of mankind.

...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.