Future of Greece

[LeBrok]

...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.

I thought they will chicken out and pick the safer option the "Yes". Now they will go into unknown.

[Angela]

In Yugoslavia invented self managing socialism, what didn't exist in the world. It was system where social ownership of the means of production was dominant, not state property as in countries of socialist block. System worked and gave certain results. Yet it has demonstrated some weaknesses. One of main weaknesses was that enterprises had both economic and social function. At the time of prosperity that is able to function and achieves results despite the demonstrated weaknesses. But when economy began to decline it proved to be unsustainable. However, interesting socio-economic experiment, someone can learn its advantages and disadvantages.

Capitalism generally is better system. I think it creates a more responsible behavior of market participants. Capitalism can be sustainable but it must take into account the wither aspects including environmental protection, resource constraints, influence of industry on climate etc. Economic crisis has revealed some weaknesses of capitalism. When such situations happen usually opportunities for inventions occur in large scale. Human nature is not perfect, all of us are well-known market participants who seek a variety of ways to cheat and corrupted politicians who say one thing and do another. But people are creative by nature too, people can creating something new, and I do not doubt that people will find ways to overcome the crisis and for further prosperity of mankind.

...
By the way, courageous decision of Greeks who went to the polls. What is especially interesting young people have voted in favour of NO, by around 2:1! Usually young people are harbingers of something new.

I agree with everything you wrote except your last sentence. Young people today have been totally spoilt and over-indulged by their parents and grandparents, especially in Europe. They have no conception that money has to be created before it can be spent; it doesn't fall from trees. They think times were tough the last couple of years? All those pensions, government salaries etc. will have to be paid for out of what they produce, and there won't be enough.

It's becoming like that here too...if you take a microphone out and interview twenty-somethings, they'll say they think there should not only be free health care, there should be free housing, and free food and free everything. Problem is, who will pay for it all? It won't be some of them; they'll be lying around drunk or unconscious from drugs, living in mom's basement.

[Yetos]

I gave money to friends without interest and they pay when they can.

Are you saying that Greeks were friends with IMF? I don't think it was about making friends, but doing business. They gave money with high interest rate, because they knew it is a risky business with Greek economy and government. Well, they were right.

correct,
you do not give with high interest, or ask 10 the quantity you gave
and you do not give high quantity loan to people you know that can not pay you back,
how on earth these 'smart genious' you call head of capitalism gave?
ask your shelf why?
are they 'smart? or are they so dump?
neither, their purpose is something else,
I see you notice the bankrupts Greece had in Past,
did you also notice the times?
if you notice and know modern Greek history, welcome, a war is near.

and you have to know and realize it,
cost of freedom is expensive
and freedom is not an iphone, neither a BMW,
Milton Friedman say many correct, but not this.
but how can I be Free in a capitalistic system when I find my shelf to own more than I can earn or produce , without even touching that money?
so in communism people are victims of equality and party
in Capitalism people are prisoners to loans with out even touch a single cent of it.
so we destroy Communism once and for all and welldone,
time to destroy bankers who enslave without their will
time to make world free again,away from Venician/Rothschild system, 'hallowed be this course, Blessed the act'

PS
personally I did not vote
I belong to 40% of Greeks who wanted the referendum to be canceled,
at this time it could be a subject of civil war,
something my country knew and passed and still the pain remained for generations
I accept the results, and I will suport it, nomatter it is |No or Yes and pray to Gods to keep us united,

[Kardu]

Interesting analysis from the far left perspective written before the referendum results were known.
The fact is that the status-quo is broken and new reality is being formed, the crisis bringing new opportunities to different forces.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/t...syriza-merkel/

[Kardu]

"From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt only works one way: if you lend someone money, then they pay it back.
But that is NOT how free markets work.
Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk.

If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.
But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff."

http://www.businessinsider.com/greec...of-debt-2015-7

[bicicleur]

"From the beginning, Merkel and the EU have operated from the position that because Greece took on debt, Greece now needs to pay it back. That position assumed — bizarrely, in hindsight — that debt only works one way: if you lend someone money, then they pay it back.
But that is NOT how free markets work.
Debt is not a guarantee of future payments in full. Rather, it is a risk that creditors take, in hopes of maybe being paid tomorrow.
The key word there is "risk.

If you're willing to take the risk, you'll get a premium — in the form of interest.
But the downside of that risk is that you lose your money. And Greece just called Germany's bluff."

http://www.businessinsider.com/greec...of-debt-2015-7

in commerce, if your debtor refuses to pay you will try all legal ways to collect it anyway, eventualy forcing him to pay
you certainly will not grant him a new loan, you will blacklist him

and yes, European politicians are to blaim, they never should have granted these loans to Greece in the first place
but politicians don't have to worry, it's not their money that is waisted, it's the taxpayers

you allways tell half the trueth, only the part that is convenient for you
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that

[Kardu]

in commerce, if your debtor refuses to pay you will try all legal ways to collect it anyway, eventualy forcing him to pay
you certainly will not grant him a new loan, you will blacklist him

and yes, European politicians are to blaim, they never should have granted these loans to Greece in the first place
but politicians don't have to worry, it's not their money that is waisted, it's the taxpayers

you allways tell half the trueth, only the part that is convenient for you
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that

None of the words were mine, it's a quote from the article.
I hope you're at least smart enough to realise that


P.S. oops, no, seems you were not..

[LeBrok]

The finance minister was fired! I think it is a sign to Ezone that Greek government is willing to cut a deal soon.

Whatever, things are already messed up. New deal might take a month or two to iron, in mean time Greek banks will be closed. (Yetos should be happy, he hates banks)
Yesterday Greeks were dancing in the street. In a month they will be fighting from hunger and despair.
Greek government should have Drachmas printed already, before they played the bluff card.

[Yetos]

The finance minister was fired! I think it is a sign to Ezone that Greek government is willing to cut a deal soon.

Whatever, things are already messed up. New deal might take a month or two to iron, in mean time Greek banks will be closed. (Yetos should be happy, he hates banks)
Yesterday Greeks were dancing in the street. In a month they will be fighting from hunger and despair.
Greek government should have Drachmas printed already, before they played the bluff card.

nope he retired

and the next one is Gerun Djisselbloem
if Djisselbloem will not retire Baroufakis will come back.

It is our problem if we die from hunger,

AT LEAST WILL DIE FREE

do not forget
our national anthem is an hymn to Freedom,
not dedicated to land, neither a quenn, neither a king, to Freedom and at end of the month, will give a lesson to world that bankers are not smarter than common people,
SO NO MORE IN FUTURE MONEY VULTURES HARASH PEOPLE THROUGH CRAP LOANS TO STATESFrom Venice times to American civil war toNapoleon to WW2 bankers earned from peoples misery, and war.
time for EU to stop this madness

PS
strangely the truth is that illegal immigrtion drop drmatically this week,
can someone guess why?health and freedom, the ultimate goods in this world

[Garrick]

I agree with everything you wrote except your last sentence. Young people today have been totally spoilt and over-indulged by their parents and grandparents, especially in Europe. They have no conception that money has to be created before it can be spent; it doesn't fall from trees. They think times were tough the last couple of years? All those pensions, government salaries etc. will have to be paid for out of what they produce, and there won't be enough.

It's becoming like that here too...if you take a microphone out and interview twenty-somethings, they'll say they think there should not only be free health care, there should be free housing, and free food and free everything. Problem is, who will pay for it all? It won't be some of them; they'll be lying around drunk or unconscious from drugs, living in mom's basement.

I will exclude Greece, I will say something about rest of Balkans. Young people high depend on their parents, in some cases even middle generation! Why they are not more independent the part of reason are cultural, but not only cultural. Some sociologists link with emancipation of women (?) but in socialism emancipation of women has long ceased, Communists fought zealously for emancipation, it is no reason. Laziness or passivity young generation, it is possible to some extent. Economic reasons are clearly significant. But not finding their role in society can have more roots. Disappointment in politics, running from reality, new technologies and avoiding social life outside of virtual, discarding great ideas, etc. Protestant working ethics mostly does not live here. I hope that situation will be better. Surely parents can improve situation with different upbringing, school system too. Things can be better, but society must to work on it and to change what it's no good.

[Kardu]

Varoufakis on the situation in Greece in 2012:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/01/e...-greek-moment/

[bicicleur]

nope he retired

and the next one is Gerun Djisselbloem
if Djisselbloem will not retire Baroufakis will come back.

It is our problem if we die from hunger,

AT LEAST WILL DIE FREE

do not forget
our national anthem is an hymn to Freedom,
not dedicated to land, neither a quenn, neither a king, to Freedom and at end of the month, will give a lesson to world that bankers are not smarter than common people,
SO NO MORE IN FUTURE MONEY VULTURES HARASH PEOPLE THROUGH CRAP LOANS TO STATESFrom Venice times to American civil war toNapoleon to WW2 bankers earned from peoples misery, and war.
time for EU to stop this madness

PS
strangely the truth is that illegal immigrtion drop drmatically this week,
can someone guess why?health and freedom, the ultimate goods in this world

don't you think Greece has been governed by the wrong leaders?
yes banks are fault, and Euro-politicians are fault but the main culpables are the Greek government who asked for allways more money and didn't spend it wisely
Tsipras says Greece don't want to accept European terms, but he should come up with a valid alternative then
yes you don't have to obey any queen or king, but your politic leaders are making a lot bigger mess

[bicicleur]

Varoufakis on the situation in Greece in 2012:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/01/e...-greek-moment/

Jacobinmag - the bible
Varoufakis - a big prophet

[Angela]

I will exclude Greece, I will say something about rest of Balkans. Young people high depend on their parents, in some cases even middle generation! Why they are not more independent the part of reason are cultural, but not only cultural. Some sociologists link with emancipation of women (?) but in socialism emancipation of women has long ceased, Communists fought zealously for emancipation, it is no reason. Laziness or passivity young generation, it is possible to some extent. Economic reasons are clearly significant. But not finding their role in society can have more roots. Disappointment in politics, running from reality, new technologies and avoiding social life outside of virtual, discarding great ideas, etc. Protestant working ethics mostly does not live here. I hope that situation will be better. Surely parents can improve situation with different upbringing, school system too. Things can be better, but society must to work on it and to change what it's no good.

Again, I agree.

I'll give just one example. The economy has contracted here too, although not to the extent of Europe's. There are young people who can't get a job that matches their educational qualifications. Most of them still, thank-goodness, don't think that means that they can just live off their parents. Yes, a good many have moved back home, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have to contribute, and if that means you have to get a job as a waiter, or a lifeguard, or whatever, that's what you do, until you find something in your career path. There's nothing demeaning about honest work. I don't see that kind of attitude among my young relatives in Italy. They think that kind of work is beneath them, as is anything connected to working their ancestral land.

Not that it isn't changing here as well, however. Within the last year two families of my acquaintance have taken in a child, that child's significant other and a baby. Nor was it a case where the young family had fallen temporarily on hard times and needed to regroup. It was just total irresponsibility from start to finish. Not unlike welfare mothers, only in this case the parents provide the welfare.

One thing should be understood, however. What has happened in Greece has nothing to do with any kind of ingrained genetic laziness. Greek Americans and Italian Americans as well, for that matter, have a reputation for being incredibly hard workers and for making a good living here in the States, even if it means working all the hours God sends in some diner or other small business. There's nothing lazy about them.

[Kardu]

Jacobinmag - the bible
Varoufakis - a big prophet

Still trying to comprehend, don't ya? :)

[Yetos]

don't you think Greece has been governed by the wrong leaders?
yes banks are fault, and Euro-politicians are fault but the main culpables are the Greek government who asked for allways more money and didn't spend it wisely
Tsipras says Greece don't want to accept European terms, but he should come up with a valid alternative then
yes you don't have to obey any queen or king, but your politic leaders are making a lot bigger mess

told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

[DuPidh]

told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

Greek referendum was ridiculous.
No matter what the outcome of future agreements with creditors Greek debt showed three things:
a) If Greeks have money in their hands they don't know what to do with them
b) they have no shame,
c) their appetite is large and they want others to work to satisfy their appetite

I would say that their schools are to blame since they have not inspired anybody to learn trades and create business
They are not alone. The whole Balkans have more or less the same problems

[Yetos]

Greek referendum was ridiculous.
No matter what the outcome of future agreements with creditors Greek debt showed three things:
a) If Greeks have money in their hands they don't know what to do with them
b) they have no shame,
c) their appetite is large and they want others to work to satisfy their appetite

I would say that their schools are to blame since they have not inspired anybody to learn trades and create business
They are not alone. The whole Balkans have more or less the same problems

thank you,
we learn business from you, and your country,
which surely is not Mexico,
and since your schools are so good, why you come to our schoolls?
and since you know business why you come and work for our businessmen?

[bicicleur]

told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

I understand, Yetos
I don't have an answer

[bicicleur]

Still trying to comprehend, don't ya? :)

I have to dissapoint you
I'll never see the light
You can't save me

[Yetos]

I understand, Yetos
I don't have an answer

we are living the days of psychosis and neurosis ΨΥΧΩΣΙΣ & ΝΕΥΡΩΣΙΣ, 2 Greek words
neurosis is when you blame your shelf always, for what went wrong,
psychosis is when you always blame the others for what went wrong

so old govermental parties seem neurotic in this politico/economical affair (other 2 Greek words, ΠΟΛΙΣ ΟΙΚΟΝΟΜΙΑ)
we got tired to blaim our shelves for the corruption of politicians,
and we went to other side,
psychotics, and we choosε radical left, and now we blaim the others,
Madness Mania, another Greek word ΜΑΝΙΑ,
and I have the others to tell me that this capitalistic system is good,
only causes mental illness ,

[Angela]

told ya
I did not went to vote,
I and other 40% of Greeks wanted the referendum to be canceled,
but I have to respect the results,
I have to stay with my people, I do not want another civil war,
let the Bankers have inner/civil war, not states,
So I must stick to no nomatter the effects,
about our politic leaders, I agree with you,
they should all go to prison and rot there,
but Γουδι (1rst WW executions) was set much after problem,
until now they covered behind a law for responsibilities, but till when?

50% is our responsibilities, so we will suffer for our ΥΒΡΙΣ to live like Medes(ΜΗΔΗΖΕΙΝ)
and yes we will be hungry, and die due to lack of insouline or others medicines,
and we might not have a car, but with head up, staring the stars at the sky,
anyway, because Greeks was always in the progress of European afairs except the times between 1450-1750,
search for a possible war around, either economical either military,
most of our politicians must be hanged, or make them statue,
Stupidity from Heroism is not far,
anyway it is 21:20 here, at 00:01 i must take my money with coupon, 60 E per day like in communistic countries,
but what else can I do? waiting for solutions, or suffer, or action?
misery, and proud,

I'm so desperately sorry this is happening, Yetos.

[DuPidh]

thank you,
we learn business from you, and your country,
which surely is not Mexico,
and since your schools are so good, why you come to our schoolls?
and since you know business why you come and work for our businessmen?

Nobody is coming to be educated in Greece!
The only good school of business Greeks have is "University of Suflaki"

[Yetos]

Nobody is coming to be educated in Greece!
The only good school of business Greeks have is "University of Suflaki"

I am certain you did not try it yet,
and you never will

[Kardu]

I have to dissapoint you
I'll never see the light
You can't save me

No worries, I suspected that