Future of Greece

[Garrick]

I thought they will chicken out and pick the safer option the "Yes". Now they will go into unknown.

The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.

[DuPidh]

I am certain you did not try it yet,
and you never will

Greece is obviously a failed country!
The best thing for Europe to do is to open negotiations with Turkey to retake back Greece and govern it again.
Turks have shown that they are a lot better governors.
Germany should apologize for its actions in 19th century that helped Greece succeed from Turkey.

[Angela]

Greece is obviously a failed country!
The best thing for Europe to do is to open negotiations with Turkey to retake back Greece and govern it again.
Turks have shown that they are a lot better governors.
Germany should apologize for its actions in 19th century that helped Greece succeed from Turkey.

That's enough.

[Angela]

The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.

Many of them are too uneducated, or immature, or befuddled by all the superficial mind numbing media they consume to appreciate how many people died to give them that privilege which they hold so cheaply.

[LeBrok]

The vote of young people everywhere is significant.

But studies show that youth is less interested in political process than older generations, for example one European research:

The research found that, as in previous European elections, a minority of young people (28% aged 18-24) voted, lower than any other age group (for example 51% of those aged 55 or over voted).

Why don't young people vote?

https://euobserver.com/opinion/126431

...
I'm Europhile, but words community and solidarity are less heard these days. Community has to demonstrates solidarity.

It is typical for young people everywhere. They are less engaged in political process. Perhaps they have so good that they don't care to change the world, but having fun all the time.

[Maleth]

Now referendum is done and gone. What has changed exactly?......

[LeBrok]

Now referendum is done and gone. What has changed exactly?......

Greeks had one more party thanks to referendum. :)
If they voted Yes they would accepted EU proposal, got money and banks re-opened. Now we have uncertainty, new deal needs to be made, and till then banks are closed. Unless Putin or Chinese will rush with their money to help.
But as Yetos mentioned, they all know they will never get their money back, so they won't give it to Greece, unless they are stupid.

[Maleth]

Greeks had one more party thanks to referendum. :)
If they voted Yes they would accepted EU proposal, got money and banks re-opened. Now we have uncertainty, new deal needs to be made, and till then banks are closed. Unless Putin or Chinese will rush with their money to help.
But as Yetos mentioned, they all know they will never get their money back, so they won't give it to Greece, unless they are stupid.

Also buying time to find that Eureka moment for a magic potion, that is looking more as a tragic ending that will prove the Delphi Oracles wrong :). I heard today Greece is considering joining the BRICS group. Seems like this Tsipras Government is looking at all options accept the only one that makes most sense, which is tax reform, less government spending and easier business incentives to help the economy grow and Greeks with money invest in their own country and encourage more outside investments to absorb real growth.

[LeBrok]

Also buying time to find that Eureka moment for a magic potion, that is looking more as a tragic ending that will prove the Delphi Oracles wrong :). I heard today Greece is considering joining the BRICS group.

I think it was just a bluff to get a better deal from Eurozone. Though, Russians might be sympathetic to the idea of pulling Greeks into Russian Alliance. It would be quite tough for Putin to keep doling out tens of billions for Greece, in tough economic times for Russia. I don't think he would open up his private wallet of 200 billion either. He is not that generous man, not even for his Russian countrymen.
Now Tsipras is scrambling hard to secure any deal with Eurozone to open banks, and not to be kicked out off Eurozone. Deal might be worse than before referendum, EU is angry now. I'm not sure if he thought about printing Drachmas in advance, just to have plan B ready.

Seems like this Tsipras Government is looking at all options accept the only one that makes most sense, which is tax reform, less government spending and easier business incentives to help the economy grow and Greeks with money invest in their own country and encourage more outside investments to absorb real growth.

Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

[Yetos]

I think it was just a bluff to get a better deal from Eurozone. Though, Russians might be sympathetic to the idea of pulling Greeks into Russian Alliance. It would be quite tough for Putin to keep doling out tens of billions for Greece, in tough economic times for Russia. I don't think he would open up his private wallet of 200 billion either. He is not that generous man, not even for his Russian countrymen.
Now Tsipras is scrambling hard to secure any deal with Eurozone to open banks, and not to be kicked out off Eurozone. Deal might be worse than before referendum, EU is angry now. I'm not sure if he thought about printing Drachmas in advance, just to have plan B ready.

Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

The Mexican carred mored about than Russians,
a mexican banker or businness man named Sallinas came to greece and forced Greeks to go to Silver Drachma,
Russians want the raillways, they ask many times for them, to transfer goods safely to Russia
and an oil pipe to to sell oil to Mediterenean,
Russians know that are welcomed for merchant and holidays, but not for political affairs,
in the diplomatic level relations are good, but limited to trade,
They will not dare to mess with a OTAN country,

your last question is good, very good to discuss, maybe in future, Europe, that always was ahead in political try and dare, and has experience from Nazi to Communists can solve it soon,

[bicicleur]

Who would have thought, that good economy, actual production of goods, is a key for well-being of any developed country, good social services, good standard of living, and helps balance a budget. It even helps to get out of financial mess as US, Ireland and few others might attest. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the production economy is a very foreign concept to Greeks, at least for Greek Governments.

This is a very symptomatic and chronic problem. Perhaps, quality of politicians, their education and understanding economy should be questioned. Perhaps we, or Greeks because it was their idea, should reform democracy first, with the goal of get quality governance, to get most talented people of them all to run the country.

I think this is the biggest thread of all for Europe in this whole Greek soap.
By helping the Greeks out without the necessary reform, those politicians who deny the role of economics will win.
Politics and democracy isn't about economics, it's about short term popularity. It's a dangerous game, and I don't know whether it will survive in the long run.

[Maciamo]

Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.

[Sile]

As I said many years ago, you cannot have nations in the EU and make it work, it does not work because nations have too much power. Economists in the 1990s stated this many a time but where ignored.

There should have been regional levels and not national levels or at best use the EU voting division, IIRC , italy has 4 splits, france 5, spain 4 etc etc

[Angela]

On Dienekes' blog

Not my business but I think you're wrong. This is not really about the EU, it's about the ongoing consequences of what happened to the banks in 2008 and the banks are going to bleed you dry unless you break away.

Dienekes: "In the case of Greece, the culprit was not the banks, but our government that was chronically in deficit, thus amassing a mountain of debt.

That debt could be financed until -as a result of 2008- investors became suspicious of highly-rated investments such as Eurozone bonds, and the pile of Greek debt was no longer sustainable.

Moreover, the socialist government that came to power in 2009, foolishly tried to keep its unrealistic campaign promises by distributing 2bn Euros in 2009 and continuing to proclaim that it would increase wages and pensions, instead of retrenching. The markets -rightly- understood that Greek finances were no longer sustainable, which set off the Greek crisis.

Unfortunately, the narrative that has succeeded in Greek society was that the misery of the last five years is due to our creditors, when in fact it is a necessary -and painful- adjustment, which was made even more painful by the policy mix which emphasized tax increases and wage/pension cuts, instead of firing off civil servants, privatization, and cutting bureaucracy. Moreover, just as the Greek economy finally hit rock bottom and had a small primary surplus and growth in 2014, the Greek electorate decided to throw it all out the window by electing the rag-tag coalition of communists, Maoists, and assorted loonies into power, which messed up the recovery and brought us to our current condition."

I agree with much of this, with his analysis of what should have been done to cut the deficit, and particularly with his analysis of the present government, which seems to be made up of idiots without any sort of plan as to how to get out of this mess, but the EU was at fault as well, as were the investment companies and banks. There are also endemic problems with the basic structure of the EU, and the use of the Euro has been no unalloyed benefit to some European countries.

[arvistro]

In Latvia, which after 50 years of communism is or was poorer country than Greece, we went through all this. Those were hard years, but we paid our debts.
Greeks want to live fat and let somebody else pay. I totally not gonna show any solidarity.

[Yetos]

In Latvia, which after 50 years of communism is or was poorer country than Greece, we went through all this. Those were hard years, but we paid our debts.
Greeks want to live fat and let somebody else pay. I totally not gonna show any solidarity.

Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS

[Sile]

We all realise that the capital of the EU is in Berlin and not in Brussels , don't we!

[LeBrok]

Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.

I love it. It is time to finally end this hoopla.

[LeBrok]

Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS

Stop living in the past, work for the future.

[LeBrok]

I think this is the biggest thread of all for Europe in this whole Greek soap.
By helping the Greeks out without the necessary reform, those politicians who deny the role of economics will win.

I agree, if they want to stay in Eurozone they need to play to the rules. If they want to debt free they need to leave, or be kicked out, and fend for themselves. It is the highest time to end this farce for sake of all parties.

Politics and democracy isn't about economics, it's about short term popularity. It's a dangerous game, and I don't know whether it will survive in the long run.

That's why our political and electoral system needs to be finely revamped. Political structure is the same as 200 years ago when democracies were born. Time for a reform.

[Yetos]

Stop living in the past, work for the future.

People who forget their past, have no future,

[bicicleur]

We all realise that the capital of the EU is in Berlin and not in Brussels , don't we!

maybe it's better like that

[bicicleur]

Sorry pal,
but we never asked your solidarity,

we only ask what EUROPE owns to Greece from WW2,

besides who cares about a Deutsch protectorate,
our difference is that we were born Greeks and will die as Greeks,
I wonder as what you will die,

we do not care about what Europe will gives us,
WE CARE ABOUT WHAT EUROPE OWNS US FROM WW2.

and for this mess, it is not only Greek fault,
it is also EU and Bankers fault,
so go and give your solidarity and trust to BANKSTERS

so if I understand you well, you don't want to be European, you just want their money

[bicicleur]

Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.

I liked this speech.
But I don't like Verhofstadt.
He likes theater, but he is a big opportunist.
If the wind changes tomorrow, he'll play another act.

Politicians, they are all the same.

[Kardu]

Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM, heavily criticised Alexis Tsipras at the EU Parliament today. Watch the video.

Funny performance of an annoyed bourgeois.
I bet soon he will have more reasons to lose sleep and look for calming pills.