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Thread: Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?

    The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.

    Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a late arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.

    Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are private mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.

    The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.
    It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc.

    A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.

    If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

    It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others.

    Can you please stay on topic.
    It is important for theme because Tosks Albanians probably are mix including Armanji, Epirotes etc. There are opinions about it. And haplogrous between Tosk and Ghegs are significant different. Do you really think it is accidentally? No. We must include relevant factors in thread. J2b in Albanians today is possible influence of other populations. I will precise give haplogroups of Armanji. Today they are much smaller then of old, they didn't succeed to make their country, but their homeland is known.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc.

    A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.

    If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.
    You are conflating language and genetics. I don't know if R1b carriers brought Albanian. Perhaps they did. I also don't know, however, what their autosomal composition was by the time that they got there.

    I do know that sometimes language changes because of elite dominance, which means it's imposed by a minority of people on a majority that carry different yDna and mtDna markers and autosomal signatures. I also know that the R1b is a minority lineage among the Albanians.

    The implications should be clear.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since at least the Neolithic.

    In the Tosks, who may have mixed more with surrounding Slavic speakers, it's lower, at 41%.

    Gheg Albanians:
    E-V13: 38%
    J2b: 25%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
    R1a-M17: 2.5%
    I1-M253: 3.3%

    Tosk Albanians:
    E-V13: 29%
    J2b: 12%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
    I2a-M223: 5%
    R1a-M17: 6%
    I1-M253: 3.8%

    This doesn't mean, you know, that Slavic speakers don't have ancestors from the Neolithic, G2a and T and E-V13 and J2b, as well as all the Near Eastern mtDna. A man's y dna is only from one ancestor among many, just the one direct male line. There could be all sorts of other yDna. The only way to get a handle on it is to do a 23andme test and then run the results through a calculator. Then people could estimate their percentage of EEF.

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    Thank you Angela for pointing out the facts again.

    Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past. Hint at them, look at haplogroups in Serbia today for example: E-V13 is 15-20%, J2b is 5-7%.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since at least the Neolithic.
    1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?

    2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
    if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
    E-v13 is Bulgarian? cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13
    and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?

    just wondering
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?

    2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
    if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
    E-v13 is Bulgarian? cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13
    and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?

    just wondering
    You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.

    If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:

    "All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.

    If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:

    "All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"
    Relax Trojet . There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....

    (quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Relax Trojet . There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....

    (quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779
    I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

    He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!.
    It makes huge difference because of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    All that paper is saying that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity on Bulgaria, which is probably true. He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic.

    We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?
    This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.

    BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

    He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.
    It all depends were E-V13 was born (mutated), Some suggest it could be as old as 10,000 ybp and follow the traces of how it was dispersed and into what groups. We don't have those answers yet, just indications. It will take a while. We have no ancient samples from these candidate areas yet. I do not find it weird or impossible that E-V13 epicenter was say in Bulgaria and dispersed South West and North. By time we will have a much better understanding but surely not impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post

    We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?
    I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.

    BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...
    Double facepalm. It's not up to me to prove that something was not. It's up to you to prove that your ancestors were Albanians, if you have interest in doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?
    We have no clue who those E-V13 carriers were, and considering what we know about history we can only highly doubt they were Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

    He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.
    Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.

    One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Double facepalm. It's not up to me to prove that something was not. It's up to you to prove that your ancestors were Albanians, if you have interest in doing so.
    I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. The proof is everywhere, whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    We have no clue who those E-V13 carriers were, and considering what we know about history we can only highly doubt they were Albanians.
    Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these people, and they blended into one another inThraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

    Present dna indicators and history are very much aligned, we are getting closer and closer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these people, and they blended into one another inThraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

    Present dna indicators and history are very much aligned, we are getting closer and closer.
    Thank you Maleth :) but I don't think they will ever accept the facts. I don't get it. I have nothing against Slavs. I actually have had a couple of Serbian friends. I respect their history, language, culture, traditions, etc. I don't get why they can't do the same for us Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.

    One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.
    Here we go again Goodnight all.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?
    Maleth, 3.48% of E-V13 carriers in Europe and Turkey is Albanian. You can see how is small probability that they are ancestors of Albanians. Why not Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Italians etc.

    And we know they are not. Because today's clades of E-V13 are much younger. You can see:

    TMRCA from 4,400 to 1,500 ybp

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

    You know how long time we spent on Pelasgians but no one proof, not even a hint that they had any connection with Albanians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Here we go again Goodnight all.....
    Maleth, it is true. Original language (languages) of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic.

    Eupedia:
    E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.

    Yes languages of E-V13 carriers are extinct. A lot of languages unfortunately are extinct. Languages of I carriers are extinct. I had an exchange of views with Le Brok about it. This discussion is interesting.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by [QUOTE
    Ike;461472]It makes huge difference because of this:
    I have no interest in taking sides in nationalistic disputes among Balkan peoples. I have no dog in the hunt, as they say.

    All I know is that the haplogroups carried by Albanians have been in the Balkans since the Mesolithic (one branch of I2a), Neolithic (E-V13 and J2b) and Bronze Age (R1b and another branch of I2a), and yet we're supposed to believe that a people who carry all those clades at such high levels (especially E-V13 and J2b), and speaking an IE language, are Semites and Turks who suddenly arrived in the Balkans 1000 years ago?

    Have you ever heard the phrase "drinking the kool-aid"?

    That may be what was taught in certain quarters, but there is absolutely no scientific support for it. That's not to say that I think all the national groups in the Balkans have been tethered to certain kilometers of earth since the Neolithic. People no doubt moved around.

    As to the E-V13 higher diversity in Bulgaria, there are a number of ways that could have happened, one of which is that E-V13 could have entered Europe during the Neolithic from northwest Anatolia via Bulgaria. (That's not the only way, of course.)

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. The proof is everywhere, whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:
    Will someone stop this guy telling lies?




    @Angela
    And this is how it ends if you tolerate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.

    One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.
    There is a fundamental misunderstanding here of how gene flow and language can interact.

    Here is a very plausible scenario based on the facts as we now know them. The I2a Mesolithic people of the Balkans, who may be of a completely different branch than the I2a people who lived in the north or on the steppe, spoke goodness knows what mesolithic hunter gatherer language. As we now know, during the Neolithic at the latest they were joined by E-V13 and J2b people, who spoke who knows what farmer/cow herder language. I'm not even going to get into a discussion of it because it's irrelevant from which language family it derived; it got there in the Neolithic. During the Bronze Age, R1b people arrived and imposed Albanian, their Indo-European language, on the I2a, E-V13, and J2b people who were already there. Add in some minority later arriving "Dinaric" I2a and some R1a, et voila, you have the Albanians.

    You should be aware that most people who read this site have at least a modicum of knowledge about genetics and archaeology and history, and they will not be convinced by these kinds of a-scientific and illogical arguments.

    @Ike,
    The poster Trojet has posted only arguments supported by scientific data. I see no such support for any of your commentary.

    @Trojet,

    I know that it's difficult, but there are rules about civility here...

    I, for one, may have to read some of this stuff, but I don't have to waste time responding to it, so if I do it will be in the briefest of terms, just so that casual readers aren't misled into thinking that these arguments are accepted.

  24. #49
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    Only 18 samples from Piana degli Albanesi is a really small number considering that it's the core of Arbereshe group.
    I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
    Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
    Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?
    Yes. IMO, the much higher frequencies of those 3 mentioned haplogroups in comparison to Albanian populaton, is a clear evidence that Arbereshe over the years have inherited a somewhat significant southern Italian Y chromosome as that paper suggests.

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