Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

[Trojet]

For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian. Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.

Don't you have anything better to do besides trashing Albanian threads in here, because that's all I have seen some of you guys do here at Eupedia. Sometimes I can't stop laughing at your ridiculous arguments.

Nobody knows what these members of haplogroups spoke in the Neolithic and who spoke proto Albanian. It doesn't even matter. All we know for sure is that the Albanian language is estimated to be 5000 years old by some estimates, and that the ancestors of Albanians have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age (proven by genetics).

Here is another source by the New York Times stating that Albanian arose in southern Balkans some 5000 years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...4-origins.html

All some of you guys on Eupedia do is cherry pick vague arguments and try to make Albanians to be some kind of "recent arrivals" from the middle east or who knows from where, maybe you will suggest mars next time. When time and time again you are proven wrong, not just by me, but by other members as well. I would be ashamed.

[Ike]

I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.

FGS, nobody says that people are dumped. It is about language and nationality.

All we know for sure is that the Albanian language is estimated to be 5000 years old by some estimates, and that the ancestors of Albanians have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age (proven by genetics).

1. Some fragments of Albanian language are that old, not the language itself. And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago.

2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.

[Angela]

FGS, nobody says that people are dumped. It is about language and nationality.





1. Some fragments of Albanian language are that old, not the language itself. And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago.

2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.

This is not a thread about linguistics. However, as a public service, genetics and language are two different things. A small elite population can impose its language on a much larger group. Also, for general information, the Slavic languages, the Latin languages, Greek, and Albanian, are all Indo-European languages which are late arrivals to the Balkans. They are all equal in that respect. I think time lines are irrelevant, but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival.

Now, back on topic.

[Ike]

Mistake. Delete.

[Trojet]

And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago

Here is another source by the New York Times stating that Albanian arose in southern Balkans some 5000 years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...4-origins.html

but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival.

You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

[Ike]

It seems there have been no more than 100 speakers of it for 4.000 years, since hundreds of languages have been mentioned in ancient scripts, and none of it was Albanian.

[Trojet]

It seems there have been no more than 100 speakers of it for 4.000 years, since hundreds of languages have been mentioned in ancient scripts, and none of it was Albanian.

Since you admit that the the current Albanian speakers, around 7 million, have lived there for thousands of years, show me proof who "Albanized" these indigenous people in Albania, Kosovo, and other places just 1000 years ago, and only then I'll respond to you regarding this issue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians

[Ike]

What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

It makes difference because E-V13 is very old group. Any fine speculations about it's origin without knowing subclades are pointless. I still remember the time when whole internet was filled with R1b origin in Spain.

It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others.
Can you please stay on topic.

We have no idea about that. May be very true, but may be as true as that Spain was filled with R1b in 5000 BC.

[Skerdilaidas]

Story about nations is different because nations are linked with language and culture. For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian. Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.

Why are you and few other retarded Serbians so concerned with our history and in general with anything that has to do with Albanians?? If I was a Serb like you, I would be very concern and also fascinated to find out which hut/tent did the Avaro/Huns keep your female ancestors, when they dragged your kind down to Balkans. Archaeology should be what you ought to concentrate on. I bet you belong to Q y-dna too, don't you? lol

[ukaj]

Can someone please explain the results to these studies please.Im kinda of confused in why they mention an gheg between 2 familys that say they have never mixed their blood.An then it some how has determined who arbreshe are an were..preetty silly if you ask me,Anyway

[Skerdilaidas]

Can someone please explain the results to these studies please.Im kinda of confused in why they mention an gheg between 2 familys that say they have never mixed their blood.An then it some how has determined who arbreshe are an were..preetty silly if you ask me,Anyway

Can you be more specific, what don't you understand?

[RobertColumbia]

...
2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.

Yes, and it is also highly likely that there are pre-IE substrates in many, if not most, other IE languages. For example, Uralic in Russian, Dravidian in Sanskrit, and possibly Basque in Germanic, Celtic, and/or Romance.

This is not a thread about linguistics. However, as a public service, genetics and language are two different things. A small elite population can impose its language on a much larger group. Also, for general information, the Slavic languages, the Latin languages, Greek, and Albanian, are all Indo-European languages which are late arrivals to the Balkans. They are all equal in that respect. I think time lines are irrelevant, but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival....

It's also worth mentioning that the opposite sometimes happens. Occasionally a small elite population adopts the local language. This happened in France (the conquering Franks, who named the country, abandoned their own German in favor of the local Latin dialect, which they also named after themselves), China (the Manchu dynasty rulers adopted the local Mandarin Chinese as their language), and several Viking communities such as Kievan Rus and Normandy.

[drroots]

My AncestryDNA test shows that I have tens (if not hundreds) Arberesh matches at "5th cousins" distance, in fact more than Albanians "5th cousins" .... Anyone else has Arberesh matches in good numbers ? Any FamilyTreeDNA forums with Arberesh Y-DNA results?

Based on my latest research my family should have been around Montenegro ~1500s (mother side and father side)....

[Fustan]

My AncestryDNA test shows that I have tens (if not hundreds) Arberesh matches at "5th cousins" distance, in fact more than 5th cousins Albanians.... Anyone else has Arberesh matches in good numbers ? Any FamilyTreeDNA forums with Arberesh Y-DNA results?

Based on my latest research my family should have been around Montenegro ~1500s (mother side and father side)....

I match an Arberesh from Palermo at 34 of 37.

[drroots]

I match an Arberesh from Palermo at 34 of 37.

I'm sorry, what "at 34 of 37" matching means?

Update : You mean you have a GD3 match in Y37 with an Arberesh ?! Wow, that's awesome ! I don't have a single match other than few Y12s/ GD1

I just have tens of autosomal matches with Arberesh.....

[drroots]

Southern Albanians assimilated one significant number of Slavs in the middle ages, northern very little.

Arbareshe colonists descend from southernmost parts of Albanian people, according to the Arbareshe dialect

.

Based on my research, seems like the latest migrations of Albanians in Italy must have been from South ... but the earliest ones were Gheg...... I have tens (if not hundreds) matches in AncestryDNA with Arberesh people and most of the matches I contacted confirmed to me that they were originally Gheg.... 15+ years ago, close to my old house (Ashburn/VA) used(is?) to be a Greek Orthodox church, and I used to get invited to their religious celebrations.. and I met a lot of "greek" Albanians ..... when I spoke to the elders , who knew absolutely no greek (only tosk albanian) and they all told me that originally came from North- Kruja/Shkodra/montenegro(Kuci, Vuxan?,Cousinje?) and they were Catholics ....., whoever had money and influence , they made it across the Adriatic.....

I did not pay attention back then, but after getting my ancestryDNA result and matches, all my greek matches seems to be Albanians with old albanians lastnames & their greek locations are where Albanians/Arvanitas settled after turks occupied Albania : mostly in Attiki/Athenes & Peleponese.... Lastnames : Ballas/lekas/Tsano/Petro-Leka/Ghellos ... It's known Arvanitas & Greek migration to Sicily from Morea/greece.

I just learned recently based on DNA results and following & digging the paper(&oral)-trail.... that all my direct 4 grandparents lines where in Montenegro/Albania border ~1500-1600.... Seems like there is a migration expansion from Montenegro/North Albania towards South after Turks occupation.... I don't know why majority of this migration moved south instead of north ? Was greece/peleponese back then considered a strong-hold ?
Were the mountains of Montenegro/Albania the latest southern anti slavic fortress and after turkish occupation they felt is safer in greece than let's say north orthodox Serbia ?

I spoke to some of my "Serbian" 5th cousins... and since 'everyone' seems to be originally from Montenegro, we all wonder what was the population of Montenegro back then :)

[drroots]

Ola Amigos!
Interesting topic! My grandfather was albo from Atica, Greece! He told me that Albaneses before migrating to Italy were for 300 years in Greece. They were invited by local landlords to protect their possessions from the invaders.

Very Interesting... I have a good number of "greek" 4-5th cousins from Attiki....I would not be surprised if were cousins :) Have you uploaded you autosomalDNA to GEDMatch ?

[LABERIA]

Based on my research, seems like the latest migrations of Albanians in Italy must have been from South ... but the earliest ones were Gheg...... I have tens (if not hundreds) matches in AncestryDNA with Arberesh people and most of the matches I contacted confirmed to me that they were originally Gheg.... 15+ years ago, close to my old house (Ashburn/VA) used(is?) to be a Greek Orthodox church, and I used to get invited to their religious celebrations.. and I met a lot of "greek" Albanians ..... when I spoke to the elders , who knew absolutely no greek (only tosk albanian) and they all told me that originally came from North- Kruja/Shkodra/montenegro(Kuci, Vuxan?,Cousinje?) and they were Catholics ....., whoever had money and influence , they made it across the Adriatic.....

I did not pay attention back then, but after getting my ancestryDNA result and matches, all my greek matches seems to be Albanians with old albanians lastnames & their greek locations are where Albanians/Arvanitas settled after turks occupied Albania : mostly in Attiki/Athenes & Peleponese.... Lastnames : Ballas/lekas/Tsano/Petro-Leka/Ghellos ... It's known Arvanitas & Greek migration to Sicily from Morea/greece.

I just learned recently based on DNA results and following & digging the paper(&oral)-trail.... that all my direct 4 grandparents lines where in Montenegro/Albania border ~1500-1600.... Seems like there is a migration expansion from Montenegro/North Albania towards South after Turks occupation.... I don't know why majority of this migration moved south instead of north ? Was greece/peleponese back then considered a strong-hold ?
Were the mountains of Montenegro/Albania the latest southern anti slavic fortress and after turkish occupation they felt is safer in greece than let's say north orthodox Serbia ?

I spoke to some of my "Serbian" 5th cousins... and since 'everyone' seems to be originally from Montenegro, we all wonder what was the population of Montenegro back then :)

No, this people, the Albanians who migrated in Greece, Arvanites and the Arbëreshë of Italy are mostly Tosk Albanians. This is the big picture. Then behind this there are many things. For example, Albanians were considered among the best soldiers and were used as mercenary by all the Empires. First of all the Venetians and of course the Kingdom of Naples. But in every important European army there was an Albanian regiment. King of England used Albanian mercenaries to protect the borders with Scotland. The Spanish Empire had Albanian mercenaries. The Russian Empire had an "Albanian Army", Albansko Voisko. The French Empire during the reign of Napoleon had an Albanian regiment. The British Empire also had an Albanian regiment. And of course the Ottoman Empire used Albanians as soldiers. Albanians were considered the Swiss of Ottoman Empire. For example, the Venetians used Albanians(Catholics from North but also Orthodox from South) to protect their territories from North Adriatic against the Croatian pirates named Usok, in Peloponnese, Crete, Cyprus, etc.
So, finding Geg among this Arbëreshë it's normal. But as i said the majority of Arbëreshë are from Central and South Albania and a part of them are Arvanites from Greece.
Geg Albanians migrated mostly in North Italy, Venice, etc. But they were assimilated because they had the same religion with Italians, they were Catholics. Meanwhile Tosk were Orthodox and continued to preserve their religion in Italy and this saved them from the assimilation.

[drroots]

No, this people, the Albanians who migrated in Greece, Arvanites and the Arbëreshë of Italy are mostly Tosk Albanians. This is the big picture. .......are from Central and South Albania and a part of them are Arvanites from Greece.

Laberia,
Sorry If I sounded like I am overlooking the genetic contribution of Tosks in Europe or its quantity.... I was simply highlighting my conclusion that the earliest arberesh settlements based on my research seems to be from Gheg areas ( ..and btw isn't centre/middle Albania Gheg too?).

I agree with you that majority of Ghegs settled in northern part of Italy while the majority of all Arberesh originated from Albanian Tosk areas (even though some of these tosks came from areas like "Bregu Detit" etc places which were 'recently' populated with newly arrivals of Ghegs - ref. Ekrem.B.Vlora)

Here is a good chronology of Arberesh settlements from Dr. Lutfi Alia that matches with my view:
http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/news/i...0%93-1774.html


Take care :)

PS:
I find it very fascinating that I have few matches with Scura and/or Tocci. As far as I know both are Albanian Ghegs and migrated very early.. before Albania's fall under turks occupation...

[LABERIA]

Laberia,
Sorry If I sounded like I am overlooking the genetic contribution of Tosks in Europe or its quantity....

I said Albanian mercenaries, not Tosk Albanian mercenaries. Pra mund ta kishe kursyer këtë pjesë.

I was simply highlighting my conclusion that the earliest arberesh settlements based on my research seems to be from Gheg areas ( ..and btw isn't centre/middle Albania Gheg too?).

I agree with you that majority of Ghegs settled in northern part of Italy while the majority of all Arberesh originated from Albanian Tosk areas (even though some of these tosks came from areas like "Bregu Detit" etc places which were 'recently' populated with newly arrivals of Ghegs - ref. Ekrem.B.Vlora)

Here is a good chronology of Arberesh settlements from Dr. Lutfi Alia that matches with my view:
http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/news/i...0%93-1774.html


Take care :)

PS:
I find it very fascinating that I have few matches with Scura and/or Tocci. As far as I know both are Albanian Ghegs and migrated very early.. before Albania's fall under turks occupation...

Let me repeat what I said in my previous post. The majority of Albanians who migrated during the Middle Ages in Greece and South Italy, Sicily, are native from South Albania. The dialect spoken by these two diasporas is Tosk. That being said, we must say that there were Albanians of Northern Albania among these exiles. But the majority was from southern Albania, or Epirus.
In this context i explained you the role of the Albanians as mercenaries. There were huge movements of populations.
About the article of Lutfi Alla, my opinion is time that Albanian historians have to stop to make compilations of what other medieval or modern authors have said about this topic, we can find this authors in Internet. Now they have to start to dig in the archives of Venice, Spain, England, etc. Pëllumb Xhufi published recently a book, Arbërit e Jonit, The Ionian Arbër. I have not read this book, but seems that is an interesting work. He was personally for some months in the archives of Venice and according to him, there is a huge quantity of materials about Albanians in this archives.

[Johane Derite]

It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.

Yeah, true!

Can anyone help me make sense of this: "The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations." Since the guy who originally made the comment is banned maybe you
know Pax since you replied?

[Ownstyler]

Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

Trojet Thank you for the haplogroup info. Unfortunately I don't know how to do what you have done, so I would ask you if you could do the same for the Arvanite groups from the same study? I am very interested to know how the compare since they left Albania even earlier than the Arbereshe.

Thank you!

[Trojet]

Trojet Thank you for the haplogroup info. Unfortunately I don't know how to do what you have done, so I would ask you if you could do the same for the Arvanite groups from the same study? I am very interested to know how the compare since they left Albania even earlier than the Arbereshe.
Thank you!

They didn't include any Arvanites in this study, nor have I seen any Arvanite Y-DNA study.

While we're at this specific study, the results I have posted over two years ago, are based on what the paper reported. It seems they have messed up some SNPs for R1b haplogroup, perhaps lab error. So in the case of Gheg and Tosk Albanians, according to STR analysis, the vast majority of R1b is actually R1b-BY611(xL51).

[Eldritch]

Very curious the presence of Germanic Y-DNA among Tosk Albanian speakers.

I- M253 - 3.85%
I- M253* - 3.85%
I- M223 - 4.81%

More than 10% which is not typical for southern europe at all.

[blevins13]

Very curious the presence of Germanic Y-DNA among Tosk Albanian speakers.

I- M253 - 3.85%
I- M253* - 3.85%
I- M223 - 4.81%

More than 10% which is not typical for southern europe at all.

Gothic warriors


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