Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

Southern Albanians assimilated one significant number of Slavs in the middle ages, northern very little.

Arbareshe colonists descend from southernmost parts of Albanian people, according to the Arbareshe dialect

We lack Albanian STR haplotypes on 37 or more markers in order to compare them the with similiar South Slav haplotypes especialy those E-V13

According to the newest genetic researches in Serbia, so far, it seems that Muslims in Sanjak region in Serbia have around half Albanian ancestry, but the speciment is so far to small to draw definitive conclusions.
 
I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance. You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...
 
Nothing Neolithic here. Even 4,400 years ago is not Neolithic. It is BA. But E-V13 about we talk is younger, you can see data of different World genetic networks.

Maciamo gave very good analyse for E-V13:



E-V13 is almost solved story. Albanian language nothing to do with E-V13 and other languages in the Balkans or Caucasus or Anatolia too. E-V13 are assimilated. Some population assimilated them more, some less.

We can go further.

R1b M269 is not Neolithic in Europe. And what R1b M269 has with E-V13? Completely different origin. Of course somewhere these two populations merged.

You can see another haplogroups. Every has completely different origin. Only haplogroup which is Mesolithic and Neolithic is I haplogroup. About J2a we would be discuss. It is interesting significant R1a in Arbereshe. Albanians are very diverse and mixed. And Tosk are close to Greeks than Ghegs. And we see Arbereshe now, almost third story.

Someone cannot thinks that all of these very different haplogroups always were together, in Neolithic, and whenever. And only one (or two) gave the language. And it is not hard to guess which.

It is obvious that some older populations assimilated (and it is possible they hold older substratum) when the Albanians came to the territory of today's Albania. And we know that in big part today's South Albania lived Armanji (Aromanians). What is with Epirotes? Yetos could be better explain this. We can find more if want, but for now this is enough.

...
This Italian study is excellent, and we have more knowledge now. I would just prefer more precise labels for haplogroups. What it means R-M17? They should give accurate subclade, M17 is very generally and someone can thinks that haplogroup is in Central Asia, but probably it is not. There are other similar examples.

I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?

The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.

Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a late arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.

Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are private mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.

The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.
 
Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...

I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.

You can see:

Vlach-expansion.jpg


Do you know something of Armanji?

Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.

You can see original homeland of Armanji (Aromanians; Vlachs how you want).

Albanians assimilated Aromanians, and haplogroups of Aromanians are now haplogroups of Albanians. But do you know how Aromanians assimilated? For example, did you hear for Ali Pasha of Tepelana?
 

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I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.

You can see:

Vlach-expansion.jpg


Do you know something of Armanji?

Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.

You can see original homeland of Armanji (Aromanians; Vlachs how you want).

Albanians assimilated Aromanians, and haplogroups of Aromanians are now haplogroups of Albanians. But do you know how Aromanians assimilated? For example, did you hear for Ali Pasha of Tepelana?

What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others.

Can you please stay on topic.
 
I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?

The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.

Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a late arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.

Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are private mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.

The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.

It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc.

A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.

If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.
 
What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others.

Can you please stay on topic.

It is important for theme because Tosks Albanians probably are mix including Armanji, Epirotes etc. There are opinions about it. And haplogrous between Tosk and Ghegs are significant different. Do you really think it is accidentally? No. We must include relevant factors in thread. J2b in Albanians today is possible influence of other populations. I will precise give haplogroups of Armanji. Today they are much smaller then of old, they didn't succeed to make their country, but their homeland is known.

NL22_MAPF.gif
 
It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc.

A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.

If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.

You are conflating language and genetics. I don't know if R1b carriers brought Albanian. Perhaps they did. I also don't know, however, what their autosomal composition was by the time that they got there.

I do know that sometimes language changes because of elite dominance, which means it's imposed by a minority of people on a majority that carry different yDna and mtDna markers and autosomal signatures. I also know that the R1b is a minority lineage among the Albanians.

The implications should be clear.
 
We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since at least the Neolithic.

In the Tosks, who may have mixed more with surrounding Slavic speakers, it's lower, at 41%.

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

This doesn't mean, you know, that Slavic speakers don't have ancestors from the Neolithic, G2a and T and E-V13 and J2b, as well as all the Near Eastern mtDna. A man's y dna is only from one ancestor among many, just the one direct male line. There could be all sorts of other yDna. The only way to get a handle on it is to do a 23andme test and then run the results through a calculator. Then people could estimate their percentage of EEF.
 
Thank you Angela for pointing out the facts again.

Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past. Hint at them, look at haplogroups in Serbia today for example: E-V13 is 15-20%, J2b is 5-7%.
 
We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since at least the Neolithic.

1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?

2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
E-v13 is Bulgarian? cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13
and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?

just wondering
 
1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?

2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
E-v13 is Bulgarian? cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13
and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?

just wondering

You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.

If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:

"All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"
 
You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.

If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:

"All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"

Relax Trojet :). There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....

(quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
 
Relax Trojet :). There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....

(quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.
 
What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!.

It makes huge difference because of this:

Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past.

All that paper is saying that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity on Bulgaria, which is probably true. He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic.


We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?
 
We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?

This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.

BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...
 
I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.

It all depends were E-V13 was born (mutated), Some suggest it could be as old as 10,000 ybp and follow the traces of how it was dispersed and into what groups. We don't have those answers yet, just indications. It will take a while. We have no ancient samples from these candidate areas yet. I do not find it weird or impossible that E-V13 epicenter was say in Bulgaria and dispersed South West and North. By time we will have a much better understanding but surely not impossible.
 
We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?

I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?
 
This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.

BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...

Double facepalm. It's not up to me to prove that something was not. It's up to you to prove that your ancestors were Albanians, if you have interest in doing so.


I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?

We have no clue who those E-V13 carriers were, and considering what we know about history we can only highly doubt they were Albanians.
 
I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.

Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.

One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.
 

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