Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 129

Thread: Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

  1. #1
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    5 members found this post helpful.

    Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

    Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe, Sarno, Tofanelli et al

    This is the link to the article:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

    Abstract

    "The relationship between genetic and linguistic diversification in human populations has been often explored to interpret some specific issues in human history. The Albanian-speaking minorities of Sicily and Southern Italy (Arbereshe) constitute an important portion of the ethnolinguistic variability of Italy. Their linguistic isolation from neighboring Italian populations and their documented migration history, make such minorities particularly effective for investigating the interplay between cultural, geographic and historical factors. Nevertheless, the extent of Arbereshe genetic relationships with the Balkan homeland and the Italian recipient populations has been only partially investigated. In the present study we address the genetic history of Arbereshe people by combining highly resolved analyses of Y-chromosome lineages and extensive computer simulations. A large set of slow- and fast-evolving molecular markers was typed in different Arbereshe communities from Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria), as well as in both the putative Balkan source and Italian sink populations. Our results revealed that the considered Arbereshe groups, despite speaking closely related languages and sharing common cultural features, actually experienced diverging genetic histories. The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. These processes ultimately resulted in the differential acquisition or preservation of specific paternal lineages by the present-day Arbereshe communities."



    I haven't yet read the full paper, but I will.

    There's also a wealth of information in the Supplementary Info:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

    They even have break downs of Tosk vs. Gheg.

    This is the pie chart. It's clear that there was more admixture with locals in Sicily, but even in Calabria it looks to me as if there are some differences.


    Table S4 has specific percentages for each group.



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe, Sarno, Tofanelli et al

    This is the link to the article:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

    Abstract

    "The relationship between genetic and linguistic diversification in human populations has been often explored to interpret some specific issues in human history. The Albanian-speaking minorities of Sicily and Southern Italy (Arbereshe) constitute an important portion of the ethnolinguistic variability of Italy. Their linguistic isolation from neighboring Italian populations and their documented migration history, make such minorities particularly effective for investigating the interplay between cultural, geographic and historical factors. Nevertheless, the extent of Arbereshe genetic relationships with the Balkan homeland and the Italian recipient populations has been only partially investigated. In the present study we address the genetic history of Arbereshe people by combining highly resolved analyses of Y-chromosome lineages and extensive computer simulations. A large set of slow- and fast-evolving molecular markers was typed in different Arbereshe communities from Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria), as well as in both the putative Balkan source and Italian sink populations. Our results revealed that the considered Arbereshe groups, despite speaking closely related languages and sharing common cultural features, actually experienced diverging genetic histories. The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. These processes ultimately resulted in the differential acquisition or preservation of specific paternal lineages by the present-day Arbereshe communities."



    I haven't yet read the full paper, but I will.

    There's also a wealth of information in the Supplementary Info:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

    They even have break downs of Tosk vs. Gheg.

    This is the pie chart. It's clear that there was more admixture with locals in Sicily, but even in Calabria it looks to me as if there are some differences.


    Table S4 has specific percentages for each group.

    very good.............please cancel mine in linguistic thread , even though mine is the full paper in PDF
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #3
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Thanks for telling me. You're right, I don't think the Linguistics section is the proper place for it.

    You just need to go to the link and then click on full text on the right to get the whole thing.

    Never mind I'll just adjust the link. People don't seem to automatically know to do that.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

    Gheg Albanians:
    E-V13: 38%
    J2b: 25%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
    R1a-M17: 2.5%
    I1-M253: 3.3%

    Tosk Albanians:
    E-V13: 29%
    J2b: 12%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
    I2a-M223: 5%
    R1a-M17: 6%
    I1-M253: 3.8%

    Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
    E-V13: 15%
    J2b: 3%
    R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
    R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
    I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
    I2a-M223: 10%
    R1a-M17: 10%
    E1b-xV13: 13%
    I1-M253: 5.3%
    Last edited by Trojet; 02-07-15 at 15:35.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111


    Country: Canada



    3 members found this post helpful.
    It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.
    Which would you say are the original or should i say the oldest albanians, ghegs or tosks?

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Which would you say are the original or should i say the oldest albanians, ghegs or tosks?
    Very good question :) personally I don't think haplogroups can give us that answer. Im sure there is haplogroup discrepencies in other countries too based on geography.

    The only difference now is really more so geographical than anything else divided roughly by Schumbin river in central Albania (Tosks south, Ghegs north). Different dialects and somewhat different customs/traditions.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111


    Country: Canada



    3 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think such a thing as "original" exists. Most places in Europe are a mixture of their PIE ancestors, that brought their languages from the steppe, and the pre-IE populations, and so there are bound to be genetic anomalies. The mixture can never be completed in a fully homogeneous fashion. Linguistically speaking, considering that Doric Greek loanwords are scarce in the Albanian language (however they still exist so a complete removal from this area would be illogical), I would say the mountainous dialect of the Albanii tribe north of the Jirecek line in "Gheg territory" is the best candidate for the proto-Albanian language, which split into Gheg/Tosk around 400-600 AD. On the other hand the Taulantii, which were the Illyrians inhabiting "Tosk territory", were bilingual Doric-Illyrians, so they are not a good candidate for the proto-Albanian language. With this in mind, the Ghegs certainly have the better case for the "proto-Albanian" identity, although this is purely based on linguistics. If we were to take Dacian or Thracian as the linguistic ancestor of Albanian, then neither would be favoured. However, Dacian and Thracian had naming conventions that ended in -dava and -para for cities, something that is non-existent in modern Albanian, whose naming conventions are more akin to the southern Illyrian -aete, which is rendered as -et in the modern language. Indeed, if we were to go with the mainstream Illyrian theory, the R1b-L51* in Ghegs would strongly favour them as "proto-Albanians" considering the recent Vucedol findings, assuming L51 was in fact a PIE marker. All in all, I'm sure they've mixed to such an extent, that genetically speaking it would be relatively useless to comment.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Finalise, a great observation. I have seen those suggestion about R1b- L51* I think them being the candidate for "Proto-Illyrians" makes more sense now with recent discoveries.

    In addition to discrepancies of J2b and E-V13 of Arbereshe, I noticed R1b-L51* didn't even register now. But important to note that Arbereshe even back then hardly represented the whole Albanian y chromosome. If no R1b-L51* went there, then of course it wouldn't show up now, however it is pretty clear that they show some mixing with Italians.

  10. #10
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,249


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.
    Yeah, true!

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603


    Country: Serbia



    Very good thread and we can draw a lot of conclusions here.

    When I set some data of Arbereshe and people of Albania from Dienekes' anthropology blog, some members spoke about "Dienekes propaganda" refering to his origin. However, we see this is true (I personally very appreciate Dienekes and his blog is very informative and serious).

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Very good thread and we can draw a lot of conclusions here.

    When I set some data of Arbereshe and people of Albania from Dienekes' anthropology blog, some members spoke about "Dienekes propaganda" refering to his origin. However, we see this is true (I personally very appreciate Dienekes and his blog is very informative and serious).
    He was so wrong 5 years ago when he proposed that since J2 is pretty low now among Arbereshe that the current high percentage of J2 among Albanians is due to either the "Albanization" of Greeks, or the remnants of the Ottoman Turks from Anatolia. We now know that J2 in Albanians is actually overwhelmingly J2b and is more rare among Greeks and even more rare in Anatolia, and is actually considered as middle Neolithic in the Balkans, while in Anatolia and Greece J2 is mostly J2a.

    He also said that I2a was much more rare in Albanians in the past because it is pretty low in Arbereshe. Well we now see that it is pretty high among Arbereshe according to this larger and recent study, comparable to Tosk Albanians levels.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    He was so wrong 5 years ago when he proposed that since J2 is pretty low now among Arbereshe that the current high percentage of J2 among Albanians is due to either the "Albanization" of Greeks, or the remnants of the Ottoman Turks from Anatolia. We now know that J2 in Albanians is actually overwhelmingly J2b and is more rare among Greeks and even more rare in Anatolia, and is actually considered as middle Neolithic in the Balkans, while in Anatolia and Greece J2 is mostly J2a.

    He also said that I2a was much more rare in Albanians in the past because it is pretty low in Arbereshe. Well we now see that it is pretty high among Arbereshe according to this larger and recent study, comparable to Tosk Albanians levels.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...search-results

    Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
    Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD

    Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

    ...
    People who read his blog can conclude that Albanians came from North-East (Dacia; Romania/Moldavia). It is interesting some Romanian scientists claim this, too.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...search-results

    Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
    Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD

    Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

    ...
    People who read his blog can conclude that Albanians came from North-East (Dacia; Romania/Moldavia). It is interesting some Romanian scientists claim this, too.
    If that's what you want to believe, then go ahead it is wishful thinking :)

    Here is the facts about haplogroups. Those TMRCA estimates by Dienekes are based on only 12 and in other cases 17 y STRs haplotypes, which experts would tell you do not tell you much about TMRCA, besides just predicting a haplogroup. That study is from 2008? This field has advanced so much ever since.

    I have researched extensively my own J2b-L283 (J2b2). I have done a YSTR 37 test, so have done 4 more Albanians on FTDNA. Each one of us are showing ~20% GD towards each other, which would indicate a high diversity. Additionally, me and someone else have done a deep SNP testing, which shows the true TMRCA, and our TMRCA is 4400 years old. Logic would say that E-V13 should show the similar diversity since these two haplogroups show similar distribution patterns among Albanians.

    It is pretty evident based on previous discussions with me that you should do some serious research on haplogroups before jumping to any conclusions or having a debate with me, otherwise I will not respond to you anymore.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603


    Country: Serbia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    If that's what you want to believe, then go ahead it is wishful thinking :)

    Here is the facts about haplogroups. Those TMRCA estimates by Dienekes are based on only 12 and in other cases 17 y STRs haplotypes, which experts would tell you do not tell you anything about TMRCA, besides just predicting a haplogroup. That study is from 2008? This field has advanced so much ever since.

    I have researched extensively my own J2b-L283 (J2b2). I have done a YSTR 37 test, so have done 4 more Albanians on FTDNA. Each one of us are showing ~20% GD towards each other, which would indicate a high diversity. Additionally, me and someone else have done a deep SNP testing, which shows the true TMRCA, and our TMRCA is 4400 years old. Logic would say that E-V13 should show the similar diversity since these two haplogroups show similar distribution patterns among Albanians.

    It is pretty evident based on previous discussions with me that you should do some serious research on haplogroups before jumping to any conclusions or having a debate with me, otherwise I will not respond to you anymore.
    You have E-V13 subclades which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. It's after Christ.

    ...
    What Dienekes writes it can be interpreting consistently with these findings of Arbereshe by Italian scientists. Findings are very interesting. I have added this of Dienekes to facilitate interpretation and beneficial influence on the discussion.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You have E-V13 subclades which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. It's after Christ.

    ...
    What Dienekes writes it can be interpreting consistently with these findings of Arbereshe by Italian scientists. Findings are very interesting. I have added this of Dienekes to facilitate interpretation and beneficial influence on the discussion.
    This is so irrelevant to our discussion, but let me school you one last time. There is SNPs (subclades) identified by NGS (BigY, FGC) for a lot of haplogroups that are 1500 years old or less. Show me proof that most Albanians belong into this "new subclade" of E-V13. Of course they don't belong.
    The current TMRCA of E-V13 is estimated to be 4400 ybp by yfull. It should however be older than that as we know that we have ancient DNA samples of E-V13 that are 7000 ybp. The reason why it is not is because not every known E-V13 sample has been sequenced by NGS yet. But it still shows that it formed 7700 ybp:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

    As far as Dienekes arguments go, I already disproved them to you, I don't see anything in this paper that supports low E-V13 diversity. Again it is only a 17 Y STR study, and is not useful for a haplogroup diversity. U need at least 37 Y STRs to get an idea about diversity, or better deep SNP testing of a haplogroup which they didn't do either.

  17. #17
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Very good analysts, using the data then available, may have reached incorrect conclusions. When trying to come to conclusions now we have to use the most currently available data. Even the latest dating methods have to be interpreted in light of actual facts on the ground, like the findings of ancient dna. No computed data can be believed if it contradicts that.


    Finalise: EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations.
    Do the Tosks live in terrain that would leave them more isolated, and therefore they would be more likely to preserve ancient haplogroups?

    This also has implications for the movement or path of R1b into Central Europe. Was it this far south, or are these old subclades (R1b-L51 xP311,R1b-M269 xL51) just more preserved there? Hopefully, we'll soon find ancient samples that will help to answer the questions.


    Garrick:People who read his blog can conclude that Albanians came from North-East (Dacia; Romania/Moldavia). It is interesting some Romanian scientists claim this, too
    .

    Or, as I've suggested before, the Slavs came down the middle.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do the Tosks live in terrain that would leave them more isolated, and therefore they would be more likely to preserve ancient haplogroups?
    It is actually quite the opposite. The Ghehs have been much more isolated as geography of northern Albania would indicate. If we consider both E-V13 and J2b as Neolithic in the Balkans, then this is the clear proof of Ghegs being more isolated since they show higher frequencies among Ghegs. In the case of I1 and I2a they probably indicate different more recent migrations, especially considering the fact that 11.5% of tosk I2a clearly looks "Dinaric" again TMRCA ~2500 ybp, while in Ghegs this is only about 3% accorging to different studies.

  19. #19
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It is actually quite the opposite. The Ghehs have been much more isolated as geography of northern Albania would indicate. If we consider both E-V13 and J2b as Neolithic in the Balkans, then this is the clear proof of Ghegs being more isolated since they show higher frequencies among Ghegs. In the case of I1 and I2a they probably indicate different more recent migrations, especially considering the fact that 11.5% of tosk I2a clearly looks "Dinaric" again TMRCA ~2500 ybp, while in Ghegs this is only about 3% accorging to different studies.
    Sorry, I need more coffee. :) I obviously meant the Ghegs, as they have the older haplogroups.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    This is so irrelevant to our discussion, but let me school you one last time. There is SNPs (subclades) identified by NGS (BigY, FGC) for a lot of haplogroups that are 1500 years old or less. Show me proof that most Albanians belong into this "new subclade" of E-V13. Of course they don't belong.
    The current TMRCA of E-V13 is estimated to be 4400 ybp by yfull. It should however be older than that as we know that we have ancient DNA samples of E-V13 that are 7000 ybp. The reason why it is not is because not every known E-V13 sample has been sequenced by NGS yet. But it still shows that it formed 7700 ybp:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

    As far as Dienekes arguments go, I already disproved them to you, I don't see anything in this paper that supports low E-V13 diversity. Again it is only a 17 Y STR study, and is not useful for a haplogroup diversity. U need at least 37 Y STRs to get an idea about diversity, or better deep SNP testing of a haplogroup which they didn't do either.

    Nothing Neolithic here. Even 4,400 years ago is not Neolithic. It is BA. But E-V13 about we talk is younger, you can see data of different World genetic networks.

    Maciamo gave very good analyse for E-V13:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Cardial was Neolithic, but E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it.

    E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.

    The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.

    No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.
    E-V13 is almost solved story. Albanian language nothing to do with E-V13 and other languages in the Balkans or Caucasus or Anatolia too. E-V13 are assimilated. Some population assimilated them more, some less.

    We can go further.

    R1b M269 is not Neolithic in Europe. And what R1b M269 has with E-V13? Completely different origin. Of course somewhere these two populations merged.

    You can see another haplogroups. Every has completely different origin. Only haplogroup which is Mesolithic and Neolithic is I haplogroup. About J2a we would be discuss. It is interesting significant R1a in Arbereshe. Albanians are very diverse and mixed. And Tosk are close to Greeks than Ghegs. And we see Arbereshe now, almost third story.

    Someone cannot thinks that all of these very different haplogroups always were together, in Neolithic, and whenever. And only one (or two) gave the language. And it is not hard to guess which.

    It is obvious that some older populations assimilated (and it is possible they hold older substratum) when the Albanians came to the territory of today's Albania. And we know that in big part today's South Albania lived Armanji (Aromanians). What is with Epirotes? Yetos could be better explain this. We can find more if want, but for now this is enough.

    ...
    This Italian study is excellent, and we have more knowledge now. I would just prefer more precise labels for haplogroups. What it means R-M17? They should give accurate subclade, M17 is very generally and someone can thinks that haplogroup is in Central Asia, but probably it is not. There are other similar examples.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-11-13
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    10

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N1a P189.2

    Ethnic group
    None
    Country: Serbia



    Southern Albanians assimilated one significant number of Slavs in the middle ages, northern very little.

    Arbareshe colonists descend from southernmost parts of Albanian people, according to the Arbareshe dialect

    We lack Albanian STR haplotypes on 37 or more markers in order to compare them the with similiar South Slav haplotypes especialy those E-V13

    According to the newest genetic researches in Serbia, so far, it seems that Muslims in Sanjak region in Serbia have around half Albanian ancestry, but the speciment is so far to small to draw definitive conclusions.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance. You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you
    Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...

  23. #23
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Nothing Neolithic here. Even 4,400 years ago is not Neolithic. It is BA. But E-V13 about we talk is younger, you can see data of different World genetic networks.

    Maciamo gave very good analyse for E-V13:



    E-V13 is almost solved story. Albanian language nothing to do with E-V13 and other languages in the Balkans or Caucasus or Anatolia too. E-V13 are assimilated. Some population assimilated them more, some less.

    We can go further.

    R1b M269 is not Neolithic in Europe. And what R1b M269 has with E-V13? Completely different origin. Of course somewhere these two populations merged.

    You can see another haplogroups. Every has completely different origin. Only haplogroup which is Mesolithic and Neolithic is I haplogroup. About J2a we would be discuss. It is interesting significant R1a in Arbereshe. Albanians are very diverse and mixed. And Tosk are close to Greeks than Ghegs. And we see Arbereshe now, almost third story.

    Someone cannot thinks that all of these very different haplogroups always were together, in Neolithic, and whenever. And only one (or two) gave the language. And it is not hard to guess which.

    It is obvious that some older populations assimilated (and it is possible they hold older substratum) when the Albanians came to the territory of today's Albania. And we know that in big part today's South Albania lived Armanji (Aromanians). What is with Epirotes? Yetos could be better explain this. We can find more if want, but for now this is enough.

    ...
    This Italian study is excellent, and we have more knowledge now. I would just prefer more precise labels for haplogroups. What it means R-M17? They should give accurate subclade, M17 is very generally and someone can thinks that haplogroup is in Central Asia, but probably it is not. There are other similar examples.
    I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?

    The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.

    Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a late arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.

    Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are private mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.

    The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...
    I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.

    You can see:



    Do you know something of Armanji?

    Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.

    You can see original homeland of Armanji (Aromanians; Vlachs how you want).

    Albanians assimilated Aromanians, and haplogroups of Aromanians are now haplogroups of Albanians. But do you know how Aromanians assimilated? For example, did you hear for Ali Pasha of Tepelana?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #25
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,998


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.

    You can see:



    Do you know something of Armanji?

    Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.

    You can see original homeland of Armanji (Aromanians; Vlachs how you want).

    Albanians assimilated Aromanians, and haplogroups of Aromanians are now haplogroups of Albanians. But do you know how Aromanians assimilated? For example, did you hear for Ali Pasha of Tepelana?
    What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

    It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others.

    Can you please stay on topic.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •