Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 49

Thread: Mesolithic Karelians - Which one is EHG?

  1. #1
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    Mesolithic Karelians - Which one is EHG?

    According to anthropologists there were two type of skulls found in Mesolithic Karelia. One was characterised as Europoid and other as metis with Mongoloid features. I provide below the famous reconstruction of faces:
    46577112_oleniy4.jpg

    Recently Haak et al came up with EHG concept which was characterised as Karelian Mesolithic hunter, and similar population constituted 50% of Yamna genetic input.

    What is your guess or idea which face represents the EHG autosomal person?

  2. #2
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    According to anthropologists there were two type of skulls found in Mesolithic Karelia. One was characterised as Europoid and other as metis with Mongoloid features. I provide below the famous reconstruction of faces:
    46577112_oleniy4.jpg

    Recently Haak et al came up with EHG concept which was characterised as Karelian Mesolithic hunter, and similar population constituted 50% of Yamna genetic input.

    What is your guess or idea which face represents the EHG autosomal person?
    The one on the right. The East Asian features in some skulls of the site makes sense, because the Karelia_HG had affinity to East Asians other Ancient West Eurasians lack. He was probably part East Asian/Siberian, but it was a very minor part of his ancestry.

  3. #3
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSnRhSWppaTUzdkk/view?pli=1

    It looks like EHG is the closest to Volga-Ural (not sure what populations are represented by this, apparently Udmurt, Bashkir, etc). Then it is Tajik. So they would look inbetween those guys.

  4. #4
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSnRhSWppaTUzdkk/view?pli=1

    It looks like EHG is the closest to Volga-Ural (not sure what populations are represented by this, apparently Udmurt, Bashkir, etc). Then it is Tajik. So they would look inbetween those guys.
    Pretty much, whoever has the most Yamnaya is closest to EHG. ANE-rich or WHG-rich ancestry also help.

  5. #5
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    ...which is woman to the left

  6. #6
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,198


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    The one on the left is a woman??!! Wow.

    Anyway, you can't arbitrarily decide that the more "European" looking one is the one who best represents the EHG who admixed into the Yamnaya.

    Also, you have to consider that the snps which code for pigmentation and facial traits are a very small part of the total genome. You could have a person with more "Siberian" type admixture who doesn't show it in terms of phenotype, and someone with less of it autosomally who shows it in terms of phenotype. Or, you could have a family where everyone exhibits the same general levels in terms of components, and yet the phenotypes are different. It happens in African American families all the time. In prior generations, one child could "pass" into the "white" culture, where the rest could not.

    Anatole Broyard-American intellectual


    This is his daughter Bliss meeting her father's mixed race family:


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  7. #7
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    Of course one person can look many ways. I was more thinking whether population as a whole looked more like man or woman in the pic. I think general feel in forums is that they were just like East Euros modern. But, then I started my doubts.
    They had 60% WHG and 40% ANE, that is like being a child of mixed ANE and WHG family.

    Unfortunately I dont know how 100% ANE person did look back then, neither I am 100% sure how WHG looked. So, I hope someone could help me out.

    My assumption is that the man represents WHG incommers to the region from South/West (basically more or less WHG guys + maybe some Neolithic ad), whilst the woman mixed EHG incommers from East (basically mixed WHG + ANEish population).

  8. #8
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    Mesolithic blond blue eyed Karelian EHG modern incarnation?

    https://www.google.lv/search?q=mika+...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

  9. #9
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    If some skulls in Karelia look obviously East Asian and since East Asian-affinity has been found in Karelia_HG, it's safe to assume the East Asian-looking one doesn't represent the typical EHG-person. The East Asian-affinity in the Karelia_HG is so minor if anything he's the guy on the right. BTW, Motala_HGs had East Asian-affinity to, but about half as much as the Karelia_HGs.

  10. #10
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,198


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Mesolithic blond blue eyed Karelian EHG modern incarnation?

    https://www.google.lv/search?q=mika+...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
    Interesting. My first impression was that he has a bit of the look of a bleached out American Indian...like the Cheyenne. Dye his hair, brown contacts and a spray tan and he'd pass un-noticed, in my opinion, even among pure-bloods.







    As I said on another thread, uniparental markers are no indicator of phenotype. My mtDna places me firmly with the EHG and there is absolutely no resemblance.

    @FireHaired
    No offense, but your first sentence is totally illogical. That isn't to say I think these people would have looked East Asian, but then the woman on the left in the reconstructions doesn't look East Asian to me either...she just doesn't really look like a modern European.

  11. #11
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    @Angela,
    EHG from Karelia and Samara had minor East Asian ancestry. Clear East Asian features existed in Mesolithic Karelia. If anything those features are connected to the East Asian ancestry in Karelia_HG.

    I guess some could have had features similar to East Asians not because of East Asian blood, but I doubt it.

  12. #12
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    That is the point that ANE links Native Americans to Syberia to modern European.
    So, population 40% of ANE is expected to look somewhat different from modern Euros, and I would say in direction of Mika.

    I dont think Mongoloid-ish features = East Asian admixture... To me much of ANE should be enough.
    It might work the other way though. East Asian without ANE might work too.

    Anyway do we have 100% ANE folk reconstructed?

  13. #13
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    OK guys, both Karelian and Samara EHG R1a according to their skulls belonged to so called Uralic/Lappoid race.
    More info on Russian molgen forum.
    They identified both hunters and found skull descriptions...

    So, PIE is genetic baby of Mika Hakkinen and Kim Kardassian... :)

  14. #14
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,198


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    That is the point that ANE links Native Americans to Syberia to modern European.
    So, population 40% of ANE is expected to look somewhat different from modern Euros, and I would say in direction of Mika.

    I dont think Mongoloid-ish features = East Asian admixture... To me much of ANE should be enough.
    It might work the other way though. East Asian without ANE might work too.

    Anyway do we have 100% ANE folk reconstructed?
    I would agree with this. As for pure ANE, that would be Mal'ta, but he was a boy, and I'm not aware of any reconstruction of him.
    However, the Russian scientist who excavated him said that he had a "Mongoloid" appearance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta-Buret%27_culture

    "Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance"

    Russian scientists did do reconstructions of the Sunghir family, however, 25,000 BC in Russia, 19o kilometers east of Moscow.

    Woman:

    'Man

    Children:


    It's discussed in Matilda's Blog:
    https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wo...008/09/page/2/

  15. #15
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    arvistro,
    You gave this link for skulls of Karelia+Samara HGs in another blog. It says they both had narrow noses.
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2890.60.html

  16. #16
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    OK guys, both Karelian and Samara EHG R1a according to their skulls belonged to so called Uralic/Lappoid race.
    More info on Russian molgen forum.
    They identified both hunters and found skull descriptions...

    So, PIE is genetic baby of Mika Hakkinen and Kim Kardassian... :)
    User's fenriR post, as re-told by me below.

    From Haak et al
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...-text.pdf+html

    The individual we refer to as ‘Karelia’ in this study is UZ0074/I0061 (MAE RAS collection number 5773-74, grave number 142)
    from the ~5500 BCE Mesolithic site Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov (island in Lake Onega) in Karelia, Western Russia, for which a complete mitochondrial genome was published
    recently4. Mitochondrial HVS I data from eight other individuals from the same site have also been described5.


    An individual was described by V.P. Jakimov in "Anthropological materials from Neolithic graves in Juzhno Olenskij island" (Juzhno Olenskij is the Karelian)
    http://www.kunstkamera.ru/files/lib/...mae_xix_06.pdf
    (253, 254 pages)

    Will translate some, the question mark after gender is from author. Now we know he was he, R1a, EHG:
    "Gender of skeleton female (?). Age adult.
    --a lot of very technical text that is hard for me to read in Russian and even harder to properly translate, anthropometrical description--
    Face high and wide, moderattely flattened. --and again technical text--

    Actually I could not find yet, based on which skull Mr Gerasimov made those reconstructions from the first post. But given that this "woman" is indeed somewhat man looking. And the "woman (?)" in description was the one who turned out to be a man.. it might as well be, that this "woman" reconstruction is exactly of Haak's R1a EHG.

    On the Samara
    the individual we refer to as ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490) is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River, Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region. Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas6.

    They did not find the exact skull from Lebyazhinka, but found from other site Chekalino IV
    http://www.povolzie.archeologia.ru/19.htm

    I translated the fragment with google translate (and fixed some obvious misspells, and bolded some):
    The earliest anthropological materials of the region (IV-b Chekalin, Lebyazhinka IV; Table 3) (Figure 3) are Elshanskoy Neolithic culture prevalent in forest-steppe Zavolzhe. Based on radiocarbon dates (Mamonov AE, 1995. S. 23) it already existed in the second half of the VII century BC At this time, the spaces forest belt of Eastern Europe was inhabited by tribes from Mesolithic way of household.
    [...]
    Skull Elshansk culture from burial in a. Lebyazhinka on a range of key parameters is quite similar to the other Neolithic skull Chekalin IV-a (Comb Ceramic culture) (Figure 3). Both skulls dolichocranial have narrow srednenaklonny forehead low, somewhat flattened at the top level entity. Nose narrow, stands slightly. Apparently, they represent same anthropological type.
    The closest analogy to these skulls, up to the full morphological identity, is found primarily in the materials Chalcolithic times (collective burial Sezzhenskogo burial, the skull of Khvalynsk Gundorovskaya and cemeteries, pogr.1 Mellyatamakskogo III).
    When comparing some characteristic traits of skulls, of which absolutely and relatively narrow forehead, narrow nose, straight forehead, a broad geographical and chronological (meso-Eneolithic) is fixed against the greatest concentration of these features within the territory of the forest and forest-steppe of the Volga-Urals (Khokhlov AA, 1996a). These, though few in number, these still provide the opportunity to suggest that in an era of eneolita on the territory of Ural steppe focus could be placed independent racial genesys.
    [...]
    New materials Early Neolithic times and overall analysis allow to supplement the characteristics of Eastern European (Uralic type), according Gokhman. For him, as characterized by a straight forehead, narrow nose, concave back of the nasal bones and the mandible gracile with slightly protruding chin. This craniological complex resembles one that is inherent in modern populations "suburalskoy" or "laponoidnoy" anthropological formation. Recall that for the most part, these populations belong to the Finno-Ugric peoples.
    In favor of the hypothesis of the existence of an ancient anthropological formation, formed the basis of the formation of modern Finno-Ugric peoples, accumulated so many different facts, that the assumption that, at least the Neolithic antiquity of the reservoir becomes more reasonable. We do not yet have data on the physical type of the actual Mesolithic population of the Volga-Ural region, but the skull of the Samara Volga region dating back VII millennium BC., Lowered the time of origin of this particular anthropological formation to the upper borders of the Mesolithic time.
    [...]
    And its impact on Yamna:
    Craniological materials Volga-Ural Khvalin time give an idea of ​​the possible existence of another independent source of racial genesys. In the age of the Chalcolithic here and in adjacent territories were complex processes of genetic interaction between anthropologically heterogeneous populations. As a result, these processes are eventually formed craniological complex, which is characterized by dolichocrania in combination with a low, not very wide and well-shaped facial skeleton. Moreover, one of the constituent components of this complex craniologically characterized by a narrow forehead, flattened in the horizontal profile persons, especially at the top level, flattening of the transfer area at the concave back of the nose, narrow and slightly protruding chin in profile. For the Early Bronze Age, this complex is manifested in the crania of the Yamnaya culture of the Volga-Urals region.

    in the end:
    It should be stated emphatically: accumulated over the past decade paleo-anthropological materials showed that cranial series of ancient times, about coming from the territory of the steppe and forest steppe zones of the East European Plain, does not fit into the idea of ​​a homogeneous "protoEuropoid" type. Even absolute width of the face, there are significant differences which sometimes occur not only between the groups, but also at the level of intra-group. Hypotheses about the anthropological unity of Eastern European populations of the Neolithic-Chalcolithic should be replaced with the concept of a complex anthropological structure (Alekseev VP, 1974, pp 206; Alekseev VP, I. Hochman, 1984, pp 43, Shevchenko AV, 1986, pp 145).

  17. #17
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    If SHG had EDAR they might have been the more Mongoloid ones via northern admixture rather than eastern?

  18. #18
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Now there are two Karelian EHGs - one with R1a and one with J (!):

    Page 43:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...16477.full.pdf

    "In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals5 autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1)."

    And also:http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post113872

    Hunter-gatherer sample: Karelia Russia (n=1)
    In this study we added another individual from the ~5500 BCE Mesolithic site Yuzhnyy
    Oleni Ostrov (an island in Lake Onega) in Karelia, Western Russia, to the one reported in ref.
    16. Mitochondrial data from seven other individuals from the same site have been described22.
    • I0221 / UZ0040
    MAE RAS collection number 5773-40, grave number 39/1. This is genetically male.



  19. #19
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Here is the link to new version of the paper (10 October 2015):

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...%3Fcollection=

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111


    Country: Canada



    1 members found this post helpful.
    First mtDna H, now y-Dna J, in EHG. This is why genetics should take a conservative approach.

  21. #21
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,841

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Neolithic people were not borned in another planet - they were *descendants of HGs - the most from East mediterranea-Near Eastern, someones from more Northern areas after acculturation - the cocktail of mt DNA of today, considered as purely "neolithical", could a mixture of previously separated groups, with two directions ways of exchange, I think in Eastern Europe - ans some male "globe-trotters" could have fared very far from their bases too even if in small numbers

  22. #22
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,841

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The one on the right. The East Asian features in some skulls of the site makes sense, because the Karelia_HG had affinity to East Asians other Ancient West Eurasians lack. He was probably part East Asian/Siberian, but it was a very minor part of his ancestry.
    none of these 2 types show too evident link with east-asian- and the right side one is more cromagnoid in features than 'east-asian'- but we are dealing with reconstructed fleshy parts of faces, not crania - the broad faced 'cromagnoid' type was apparently common enough among steppic people from Dniestr to Siberia, at high or between levels, even if these populations were not a completely homogenous block

  23. #23
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,841

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    OK Angela, it's true at individual levels and can be verified more than a time, more easily in populations where very contrasted types are mixed together -
    but at collective levels, the autosomes and phenotypes tend to cluster in statistics, if not at individual level, mixing or not - so we can try to figure out the most common (even diverse) features among an ancient populations, here EHG -

  24. #24
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    none of these 2 types show too evident link with east-asian- and the right side one is more cromagnoid in features than 'east-asian'- but we are dealing with reconstructed fleshy parts of faces, not crania - the broad faced 'cromagnoid' type was apparently common enough among steppic people from Dniestr to Siberia, at high or between levels, even if these populations were not a completely homogenous block
    And here some skulls of R1a boy

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    157

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    Angela, I googled for Cheyenne Indians and I really cannot find any resemblance between them and Mika Häkkinen. For example, Red Armed Panther (http://allphots.net/html/About-us.html) has a very broad face and quite wide eyes and broad nose while in Mika Häkkinen's face everything is quite small: face, eyes and nose. Also Cheyenne medicine man (https://www.pinterest.com/bellauthor/zizistascheyenne/) has the same very broad characteristics as Red Armed Panther.

    I have seen reconstructions of WHG faces and I recall that they were also broad. So, the man on the left could belong to the race of broad faced North Eurasians.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 12-10-15 at 18:04.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •