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Thread: Corded Ware - Real Son or Step Son of Yamna?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
    Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.
    Cattle breeding maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.
    I think the key thing here is whether it's true Corded Ware is the parent of the IE cultures that expanded east of Yamnaya.

    If correct then I think R1a would represent the fully developed IE package and R1b a partially developed early version.

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    Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
    D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

    Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
    "The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
    Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna :)

    The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
    D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

    Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
    "The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
    Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna :)

    The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.
    Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?
    "The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    "The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
    Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.
    "The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
    If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    "The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
    If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...
    Is there a record in the archaeology of actual movement of peoples from Stredny Stog to Corded Ware areas after Yamnaya moved west, or could it just be cultural diffusion?

    From the genetics end, I suppose you would need samples from Stredny Stog pre-and-post the movement west of Yamnaya culture to see if the people were actually different. Was Stredny Stog, for example, R1a rather than R1b? Then you'd need dna from adjacent Corded Ware areas to see if there was an actual genetic change emanating from the Stredny Stog area.

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    Yes, samples would be perfect.
    About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
    Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

    But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



    Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Yes, samples would be perfect.
    About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
    Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

    But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



    Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?
    I don't know if this is going to be proved accurate, of course, but I have been leaning toward thinking that in this large horizon the gene mix could have been different depending on the area. I also think that while there may have been some movement from areas to the south east into the "Corded" zone, it need not have been very major. Some R1b might have gone into an area, for example, that had a lot of R1a. However, much of the Indo-Europeanization might have taken place in situ.

    I don't have time right now to go through my files on Corded Ware, but my recollection is indeed that it moved east after a certain time and in a more easterly direction. Could the original population you referenced in Lithuania have been even more WHG/EHG/SHG like, what have you, before the arrival of the Corded Ware people? So indeed their arrival could have brought a new "anthro" type, more similar to MN European populations than what was present before, because they carried more of those genes?

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    Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
    "The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
    And
    "A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
    That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

    So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
    Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
    "The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
    And
    "A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
    That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

    So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
    Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?

    Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.
    Which study had Baden samples?

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    Cristina Gamba et al:
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html

    CO1 or Copper Age 1 is Baden.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting which Baden she is from.

    "Baden settlements were both permanent and seasonal. Stable settlements were more or less confined to the uplands and the northwestern portion of this culture, whereas small short-lived settlements are found in the lowlands of eastern Hungary and Yugoslavia. The pattern of permanent settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of the Old European populations." Gimbutas.

    Same division was also for economy - farmer vs pastoralism. If CO1 was from that 'NW portion', then she might be relict from Old Europe.
    If from the other side than I am not sure how to explain it.

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    "The physical type of Baden was predominantly Mediterranean, as was to be expected from the Vinca substratum. A steppe type was also identified, however, and a certain facial flatness in some individuals seems to reflect eastern relations. At Budakalasz, the steppe type predominated, while at Alsonemedi the Mediterranean was mixed with a European brachycranial type."
    Not sure how facial flatness can be explained without ANE...

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    Thousands of words, maybe tens of thousands of words were written both by academics and hobbyists insisting that the changes evident in the Remedello culture meant that steppe people had arrived by the Copper Age. Indeed, it was claimed steppe people brought all the copper technology to Europe, and if you dared to suggest any other possibility you were sidelined.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture

    Well, it turns out Remedello is Middle Neolithic genetically. Likewise, Oetzi was predicted by most, except on this Board in fact, as an R1b herder from the steppe because he had a copper ax. Instead, even though there was arsenic in his blood and so he was probably involved with metallurgy, he was G2a and very like Stuttgart. There's also a Bronze Age Hungarian who fits that profile.

    In some places we're not seeing this genetic incursion from the steppe until the Bronze Age. Whether or not somebody finds a Baden sample somewhere that has a bit more steppe isn't going to change that.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thousands of words, maybe tens of thousands of words were written both by academics and hobbyists insisting that the changes evident in the Remedello culture meant that steppe people had arrived by the Copper Age. Indeed, it was claimed steppe people brought all the copper technology to Europe, and if you dared to suggest any other possibility you were sidelined.
    What does copper has to do with anything? If that was to downplay Mrs Gimbutas for seeing steppe where there was none, then it was a bad example.
    Maria Gimbutas concluded that “in the 5th and early 4th millennia BC, just before its demise in east-central Europe, Old Europeans had towns with a considerable concentration of population, temples several stories high, a sacred script, spacious houses of four or five rooms, professional ceramicists, weavers, copper and gold metallurgists, and other artisans producing a range of sophisticated goods. A flourishing network of trade routes existed that circulated items such as obsidian, shells, marble, copper, and salt over hundreds of kilometres.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, it turns out Remedello is Middle Neolithic genetically. Likewise, Oetzi was predicted by most, except on this Board in fact, as an R1b herder from the steppe because he had a copper ax. Instead, even though there was arsenic in his blood and so he was probably involved with metallurgy, he was G2a and very like Stuttgart. There's also a Bronze Age Hungarian who fits that profile.
    In some places we're not seeing this genetic incursion from the steppe until the Bronze Age. Whether or not somebody finds a Baden sample somewhere that has a bit more steppe isn't going to change that.
    Bronze age Hungarians? They have increased levels of WHG.

    On the rest, apparently steppe folk was not that good in replacing genes in farmer Europe. Just like for example, Hungarians in Hungary. But the cultural change noticed by Gimbutas was there. She did not fantasize raising hill-forts, changes in ceramics, in burials, symbols and what not. Maybe it was acculturation with little genetic impact. Ruling class only for first two waves.

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    @Arvistro

    You are just repeating what I've already said. My point was precisely that there were apparently some areas where there was cultural change without major genetic change originating in the steppe. Like Remedello...perhaps like Baden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Interesting which Baden she is from.

    "Baden settlements were both permanent and seasonal. Stable settlements were more or less confined to the uplands and the northwestern portion of this culture, whereas small short-lived settlements are found in the lowlands of eastern Hungary and Yugoslavia. The pattern of permanent settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of the Old European populations." Gimbutas.

    Same division was also for economy - farmer vs pastoralism. If CO1 was from that 'NW portion', then she might be relict from Old Europe.
    If from the other side than I am not sure how to explain it.
    Transhumance?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, this is again quote from her:
    "The physical type of Baden was predominantly Mediterranean, as was to be expected from the Vinca substratum. A steppe type was also identified, however, and a certain facial flatness in some individuals seems to reflect eastern relations. At Budakalasz, the steppe type predominated, while at Alsonemedi the Mediterranean was mixed with a European brachycranial type."
    This Alsonemedi sounds like EEF & WHG mix, Hungarian BA samples.

    And bonus quote:
    "The Tiszapolgar complex, an offshoot of late Tisza, emerged in northeastern Hungary, eastern Slovakia, and western Transylvania. The continuity of their settlement to the mid-4th millennium BC indicates that these people survived and did not merge with the Kurgan culture. However, major social changes are observable and may reflect a Kurgan influence. In contrast to the Tisza and Lengyel pattern, where the majority of known sites are villages, the Tiszapolgar sites (about 100 reported) are cemeteries that suggest small communities of thirty to forty people. This situation does not reflect a normal growth of population as in Lengyel, Vinca, Karanovo, and other groups during the period before the first Kurgan wave. Also, the social role of the male had risen, indicated by several graves of males buried with more than usual care and equipped with status symbols such as maceheads. Significantly, the skeletons of these men were of proto-Europid type, whereas the majority of the population was of Mediterranean type."

    WHG folk hired/invited to protect against steppe raiders? (Quote is Gimbutas, but question is mine)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    a late answer maybe outdated?

    Arvisto said :
    Judged by whatever is meant as Hindu Kush, there is no way how Yamna can arithmetically be more than 15/35 (43%) or 10/35 (29%) of Corded Autosomally.

    If we look at Estonian Corded Ware, then again arithmetically, if we max Yamna ancestry (believe that all Hindu Kush comes from Yamna) we get this:
    37% of Yamna + 63% of someone with 85% EuroHG and 15% Near Eastern.

    Also Sintashta averages look just like Estonian Corded Ware.

    Pity there is no ANE, EEF, WHG for all this. That would make things more comparable. But like I said, whatever we use Corded Ware has more farmer and WHG and less ANE than Yamna.

    Moesan answers:
    Arvistro: I don’t understand too well your calculations concerning the Yamnaya part in Corded people. All the way it’s hard sport to deduce precise imput of a population on an other one at a point of History. Too much same ancestors in precedent periods and crossed flows (on and back). All we do, scientists and amateurs, are rough approximations which requires some cross checkings with other tools of identification; we see yet some slight differences between Haak and Allentoft works. In fact autosomes DNA is an unprecise tool even if useful at some level, and what we can see is shared DNA, but at the aDNA level it is difficult to tell the direction of genes flow. That said for sharing, I think Corded and Yamnaya shared very more than 35% of aDNA.

    Are we sure Corded came directly from a Yamnaya population? Had they not common ancestors settled North the Forest Steppe, possibly of North Y-R1a lignages? As a whole the closest culture are northernly distributed on the map, Globular Amphora Culture seems more southern. I think some of the HG- WHG or EHG – they were around there (South East Baltic lands) since a long time, with already some ANE. Both Corded and Yamnaya seem autochtonous eastern and northern populations – similar but not identical - inequally acculturated at some point by 1 or more kinds of southerners. In K15 runs Corded show more diverse northern components, more ‘west-med’ and ‘atlantic’ too, but less ‘east-euro’ (Central Steppes) and less ‘west-asian’ (South Central Asia): the southerners part in Corded is more western. I cannot tell if it’s post colonization of western Europe or if this ‘west-med’ part was not present at low levels around S-E Baltic since Cucuteni-Tripolye?
    &: I red just now one of your last post, about Sredny Stog: interesting concerning differences between men and women. And their flat tombs correspond more to the ones of the Corded. Spite Corded came later to light they kept with their flat tombs, at the beginning. So maybe are you right, thinking they swept away pushed by Yamnaya people? I regret I’ve not metrics details about this boring “proto-europoid” type, a bag term according to me.
    Speaking of phenotypes, Coon thought Corded were a kind of selection compared to Yamnaya people. Corded in North Europe plain did not show the typical ‘cromagnoid’ descendants types but a very high statured mean of very high faced people, already present in North Russia in contact with ‘cromagnoids’. All the way, the high statured people were all in Eastern Europe, Central Eurasia, and not in Central or Western Europe and marked for me the arrival of new populations (the same for BBs): either ‘cromagnoids’ or ‘brünnoids’ the apparently HG element among them all seem come from East and not being the direct local descendants of their western brethren (WHG), at least not all of them. These differences of stature in N-W Europe between “before” and “after” the metal ages cannot be put on the account of neolithical diet, I presume. Yamnaya, if I understood well, would have had more of ‘southerners’ phenotypes, more of ‘cappadocian’ sort I suppose… so a strong enough common background between Corded and Yamnaya makes difficult to guess the genes flow direction; perhaps we can say Corded and Yamnaya are more in a nephew to uncle rapport or cousin to cousin than in a son to father rapport?
    Concerning Funnelbeaker I red it was under diverse influences culturally speaking, unifying diverse cultural backgrounds. Someones say Corded are the result of I-Ean steppic imput upon Funnelbeaker fusion when others say the passage from Funnelbeaker to Corded took little time, linked to a religious change without external imput. The Long Barrows megalithers surely had a strong imput upon Funnelbeaker Culture in its northern and northwestern territories; the Gokhem aDNA is shifted towards “basque” (‘west-med’, ‘atlantic’) what could be a confirmation of it. And Corded’ principal phenotypes have little in common, with ‘Long-Barrows’ phenotypes found in Scandinavia at Neolithic : no way to confuse their skulls!). So yes, Corded imported human “meat and bones”, not only new culture nor new religion. And aDNA, even if we discuss the Yamanya part, confirms it.
    &: curiously the only Polish Bronze Age man of Strzyzow Culture – spite his Y-R1a1a I saw in forums seemed more ‘L-B’ type than ‘corded’: a Funnel-B remnant? Or North Caucasus. I cannot forget the Coon’s observations of lower skulled/broader faced Ukrainian "corded" types, and the lower skulled Iron Celts and Scythes + some of the ancient Slavic tribes men of History. No correlation with Y-DNA? Rather with aDNA.
    Concerning Sintashta, in place of a very Corded West to East colonization we can rather imagine an eastern proto-baltic population - partly 'tripolyeicized" as 'Corded' - Battle Axe? - for origin and departure place, with a very very slight demic imput of South East Caspian people (but strong cultural influence)? I had a dream (sic!): the core of satemization focal for me seems more in Eastern Europe than in Iran/Pakistan region one. Even Southern Slavic languages seems less palatizing than Eastern Slavic ones…? Just a bet!

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    Thanks Moesan, good informative post. So, CW did bring new type of bones to West too. I wonder why Mallory wrote otherwise. Do you know if those appeared with GAC culture already or with CW culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Thanks Moesan, good informative post. So, CW did bring new type of bones to West too. I wonder why Mallory wrote otherwise. Do you know if those appeared with GAC culture already or with CW culture?
    EI cannot answer here: I 've almost nothing about Globular Amphore C. I wrote in a past post a man of this culture was rather short and light statured (about 1m60); in fact he was surely a remnant of precedent Lengyel culture; 2 men of GAC gave 1m68 and 1m69 if I remember well, hat is closer to high statures, so closer to 'corded' dominant type but I've nothing concerning their skeletons and skulls (it spites me)...That said, Eastern Europe showed higher statured men than Western Europe, at Mesolitihic, according to scholars, so the origin is not by obligation in far eastern Eurasia. What is new is the very high face of one of the two componants on 'corded', which could evocate the dolicho-leptoprope type (no other description, helas) Russian scientists found in North Russia, considered by Shtrunov as a Post-Swiderian Culture population migrated to East from Poland-Balt-Belarus regions, pushed by or associated to their 'cromagnoid' people of Maglemose and affiliated cultures around Denmark; Shtrunov did not give the precise dates. He seemed associating 'cromagnoid' with Y-I1: if this Y-I1 population at these times was close to northern Y-I2 population, I can guess their 'cromagnoid' is in fact more 'brünnoid' than true 'cromagnoid' or already a certain mix of both (always the vagueness in descriptions!) - Cro-M. and Brünn were surely in contact since the 15000 BC or around in Central Europe, they had time to mix and create subtypes, robust all of them... all the way the high statured dolicho-leptopropo people, maybe born S-E the Baltic, were displaced to East, and Corded CWC could be kind of later return into West? I regret I've no precise description of Yamnaya people, with tentatives of typology, not only means, to compare their ressemblances and differences with Corded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Arvistro

    You are just repeating what I've already said. My point was precisely that there were apparently some areas where there was cultural change without major genetic change originating in the steppe. Like Remedello...perhaps like Baden.
    I agree - but concerning association/dissociation culture and type of aDNA I red in the blog "For they were we are" that the supposed BA man from Montenegro was in fact of the Late Neolithic and pertaining to a Dolmenic-Megalithic culture - 2400 BC - !!! This could change some perspectives.

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