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Agree, it did not come together in Uralic zone. Indo-Uralic theory says this:
"..we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum."
Or in more words:
"The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea, and the Proto-Indo-European speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages, absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996)"
Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.I'm not convinced. Increasingly, I am beginning to think that Yamnaya and the whole initial Indo-European phenomenon may turn out to be a mainly, if not totally, R1b affair. It's R1a that has, in my opinion, the Uralic associations.
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Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.
Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.
Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.
Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna
The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.
"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...
Yes, samples would be perfect.
About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?
But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...
Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?
Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
"The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
And
"A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.
So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?
Which study had Baden samples?Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.
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