Corded Ware - Real Son or Step Son of Yamna?

[arvistro]

Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.

 

[Angela]

Agree, it did not come together in Uralic zone. Indo-Uralic theory says this:
"..we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum."
Or in more words:
"The Dutch linguist Frederik Kortlandt supports a model of Indo-Uralic in which the original Indo-Uralic speakers lived north of the Caspian Sea, and the Proto-Indo-European speakers began as a group that branched off westward from there to come into geographic proximity with the Northwest Caucasian languages, absorbing a Northwest Caucasian lexical blending before moving farther westward to a region north of the Black Sea where their language settled into canonical Proto-Indo-European (2002:1). Allan Bomhard suggests a similar schema in Indo-European and the Nostratic Hypothesis (1996)"

I'm not convinced. Increasingly, I am beginning to think that Yamnaya and the whole initial Indo-European phenomenon may turn out to be a mainly, if not totally, R1b affair. It's R1a that has, in my opinion, the Uralic associations.

I think we tend to forget that R1a and R1b were separated as lineages for thousands of years, and I think perhaps that's because they lived in rather distinct if perhaps adjacent eco-zones with some overlap. There may have been some ancestral language that the two groups shared, but the more northern one developed into uralic, and the more southern one, with contact with Kartvellian, became Indo-European or perhaps they spoke related but separate languages from the beginning.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm not convinced. Increasingly, I am beginning to think that Yamnaya and the whole initial Indo-European phenomenon may turn out to be a mainly, if not totally, R1b affair. It's R1a that has, in my opinion, the Uralic associations.
.

Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.

 

[Angela]

The Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were, in my opinion, the product of a perfect storm of technology and opportunity. I'm not going to get into the origin of the various components here as that's covered in the thread on the Indo-European "package".

What I think is true is that over a thousand year period they adopted some agriculture and many domesticated animals, including cattle. They domesticated the horse...perhaps it first occurred in Botai, but according to Anthony also to the West, or at least was adopted early in the West. They also adopted (whether or not they invented) wheeled carts, pulled first by cattle and then by horses. With this development they were able to move to fresh pastures and water sources for their animals. As Anthony pointed out, in the wide open spaces and skies of the steppe, they focused on sky gods in their religious ceremonies, and developed a tribal social system based on clientage and feasting. Their culture exhibited a level of "class" structure, if you will, previously unknown in Europe although you could argue it had made its appearance in the Near East. At some point they adopted metallurgy, for both tools and weapons, although in a not very sophisticated or pervasive way in the beginning, and grew increasingly adept as time went on.

When the farming cultures of Europe to their west began to fail and the climate started to change, drying up the steppe and perhaps also making western Europe less attractive for farming, they were uniquely placed, in terms of culture and geography. to thrive and spread in all directions, bringing their culture with them.

I'm still not convinced that all the demographic changes that took place in Europe stem from massive population flows specifically from the steppe. For one thing, I don't think the steppe could ever have supported such massive populations. I think this was a time of turmoil and population movement partly because of this climate change, perhaps a bit like the Germanic migrations after the fall of the Roman Empire. Other groups may have been "Indo-Europeanized" and absorbed by these migrating peoples and continued onward as part of a new "mix", while others may have been largely "Indo-Europeanized" in situ. We have examples from Baden which show some culture change but little to no genetic change, and cultures like Remedello, where the culture definitely changed, but the genetics not at all. I've been saying for years that the dogma of anti-migrationism was being replaced by the dogma of massive migrationism absolutely everywhere. It depends on the place and time.

When we have better high quality genomes from central Europe, I'm sure some academic will do an in depth analysis and come up with better "admixture" numbers for those who are interested.

 

[arvistro]

Do we have genes from Sredny Stog?
This seems to be the most important culture parent for Corded Ware.
Couple of quotes from wiki:
"The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West."

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

"In its three largest cemeteries, Alexandria (39 individuals), Igren (17) and Dereivka (14), evidence of inhumation in flat graves (ground level pits) has been found.[2] This parallels the practise of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, and is in contrast with the later Yamna culture, which practiced tumuli burials, according to the Kurgan hypothesis."
But
"The use of ochre in the burial was practiced, as with the kurgan cultures."

Red ochre was in Karelia too. Need to read more on it.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Hm. Funnelbeaker (non-IE) had cattle already. GAC (IE) had more of other animals - pigs, for example. See wiki on GAC.
Horses + social structure? Also climate I think changed. Will try to check for my source on climate.

Cattle breeding maybe.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Another clue for this scenario is that there are R1b only (R1a-less) populations, like in Western Europe, but R1a is always accompanied with R1b. This could mean that IE culture came with R1b to R1a folks.

I think the key thing here is whether it's true Corded Ware is the parent of the IE cultures that expanded east of Yamnaya.

If correct then I think R1a would represent the fully developed IE package and R1b a partially developed early version.

 

[arvistro]

Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna

The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.

 

[Angela]

Just collecting info on Sredny Stog as potential father of Corded. Interesting info, not sure what to make of it. Other than it fits autosomally with Corded genes, except R1a could not be Cucuteni, could it?
D. Ya. Telegin et al. Srednestogovskaya i Novodanilovskaya Kul'tury Eneolita Azovo-Chernomorskogo Regiona. Kiev: Shlyakh, 2001.

Reviewed by J.P. Mallory, JIES vol. 32, 3/4, p. 363-366.
"The third section of the book surveys the anthropological literature concerning the Sredny Stog and Novodanylovka cultures. For the twenty Sredny Stog burials from Igren, we find the somewhat unusual situation of women outliving males on an average of 7.8 years (males - 35.8 years, females - 43.6); only one individual lived passed 55 years. In terms of the craniological analysis of physical characteristics the Sredny Stog females tend to exhibit a homogeneous Proto-Europoid type that is most similar to the earlier inhabitants of the region. The series of male crania, however, tend to vary more and indicate both more robust Proto-Europoid and more gracile southern European (or Mediterranean) components. The analysis of six Novodanilovka skulls from three sites suggests again the presence of both Proto-Europoid and Mediterranean types. The cranial evidence as a whole suggests a mingling of local Proto-Europoids (seen especially in the east) with more gracial south-east European types in the west, a pattern that might be explained by the flow of populations from the Balkan Neolithic (Tripolje) into the western Ukraine."
Which I read as more EEF (men) and WHG (women + some men) autosomals in Sredny Stog and its child Corded Ware than Yamna

The only question is how R1a and EHG got in the mix? With Tumulus later? Or were they those few proto-Europoid men? I dont believe they arrived from Cucuteni.

Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?

 

[arvistro]

Wasn't Corded Ware still further north?

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

 

[Angela]

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."

Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.

 

[arvistro]

Maybe we're miscommunicating. It doesn't look to me as if Sredny Stog is in the later Corded Ware region, if that's what you were implying. Perhaps they were R1b.

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...

 

[Angela]

"The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the western Ukraine."
If you read carefully the bolded part, then you notice that by 3,500 BC Yamna already replaced the Sredny Stog. The map of Corded Ware is way after 3,500 BC. What I imply is the Sredny Stog people took their corded ceramics and battle axes and went somewhere when Yamna folk kindly asked them...

Is there a record in the archaeology of actual movement of peoples from Stredny Stog to Corded Ware areas after Yamnaya moved west, or could it just be cultural diffusion?

From the genetics end, I suppose you would need samples from Stredny Stog pre-and-post the movement west of Yamnaya culture to see if the people were actually different. Was Stredny Stog, for example, R1a rather than R1b? Then you'd need dna from adjacent Corded Ware areas to see if there was an actual genetic change emanating from the Stredny Stog area.

 

[arvistro]

Yes, samples would be perfect.
About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?

 

[Angela]

Yes, samples would be perfect.
About population movements there is no consensus and Mallory states that there is "controversy" about CW origins.
Physical types. Only generic info circulating via multiple sources is that CW in Western part seems to be of local origin but in East (i.e. Lithuania) bring new anthro type - similar to what was in West!?

But - before CW there was neither ANE nor R1a in West, and you would expect those to arrive from East...



Some strange things there, only solution I see is that Meso/ Neo border population mix was CordeWare-ish physically accross the whole line from Atlantics to Ukraine, Before CW. Could it be so?

I don't know if this is going to be proved accurate, of course, but I have been leaning toward thinking that in this large horizon the gene mix could have been different depending on the area. I also think that while there may have been some movement from areas to the south east into the "Corded" zone, it need not have been very major. Some R1b might have gone into an area, for example, that had a lot of R1a. However, much of the Indo-Europeanization might have taken place in situ.

I don't have time right now to go through my files on Corded Ware, but my recollection is indeed that it moved east after a certain time and in a more easterly direction. Could the original population you referenced in Lithuania have been even more WHG/EHG/SHG like, what have you, before the arrival of the Corded Ware people? So indeed their arrival could have brought a new "anthro" type, more similar to MN European populations than what was present before, because they carried more of those genes?

 

[arvistro]

Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
"The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
And
"A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?

 

[Angela]

Hm, Gimbutas on Balts:
"The specific group of Indo-Europeans that evolved into the proto-Balts proceeded from the lower Dnieper basin in the direction of Central Europe and up to the Baltic Sea. Some of them even reached southwestern Finland"
And
"A second, related group moved from the middle Dnieper to the upper Dnieper, upper Volga, and the Oka river area in central Russia (Fat'janavo culture)."
That is from about Sredny Stog area. If Balts arrived from there, probably others did as well.

So, my prediction is R1a in Sredny Stog before 3,500 BC.
Only issue is Cucuteni males in that culture. They could not be R1a, could they?

Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.

 

[arvistro]

Yes, well, she also thought Baden was composed of intrusive steppe people didn't she? So, we'll see. Ancient dna will decide.

Which study had Baden samples?

 

[Angela]

Cristina Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html

CO1 or Copper Age 1 is Baden.

 

[arvistro]

Interesting which Baden she is from.

"Baden settlements were both permanent and seasonal. Stable settlements were more or less confined to the uplands and the northwestern portion of this culture, whereas small short-lived settlements are found in the lowlands of eastern Hungary and Yugoslavia. The pattern of permanent settlement is clearly linked to the tradition of the Old European populations." Gimbutas.

Same division was also for economy - farmer vs pastoralism. If CO1 was from that 'NW portion', then she might be relict from Old Europe.
If from the other side than I am not sure how to explain it.