Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 63

Thread: liguri v13

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post


    http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3952.0



    Venice seems to have similar distributions of E-V13. Does Veneto have a similar story to Liguria in its distribution?


    Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #27
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,503
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,503, Level: 41
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 447
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

    you can just click on the link and you will find the source, and anyway you are not talking of too much differences from your pie chart to the map it flactuates between 12 to 8 percent. No big deal ;).......you provided no source on your pie chart Mr. Sile :)

  3. #28
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,503
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,503, Level: 41
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 447
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I don't see what's your point here. But I may include that in Europe were two branches of IE people.
    1- the firs is the branch of the indigenous people of Europe who became indio-europeanized . In this branch we include either the Pelasgians. The remains of those people are the Albanians, Latin nations and the Celtics.
    2- at the second branch are the true and real IE people. The Greeks, the Slavic nations, the Germanic nations.
    Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.

  4. #29
    Banned Achievements:
    500 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    15-08-14
    Posts
    77
    Points
    875
    Level
    7
    Points: 875, Level: 7
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 75
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Thanks for your answer. As I know Turks have a small percentage of EV13 . So they can't brought with them the EV13 . With all the respect for them, Turks are completely different from Albanians, both in appearance and in language. But either, there are some strange things on Albanians genetics as I know, but we can't talk here about this issue.
    I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.

  5. #30
    Banned Achievements:
    500 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    15-08-14
    Posts
    77
    Points
    875
    Level
    7
    Points: 875, Level: 7
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 75
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a

    Country: Albania



    Double post

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Arban Hoti View Post
    My point is to make people realize that the name of the Albanians is in reality Arban , the Arbanoi were mentioned by this name by ancient writers telling the story when the Greeks first came to our land in Argos , these Greeks were called Danoi and the people that they met were called Arban , and now it looks like the Arbanians are E-v13 people and here it is talked about the Ligurians being or having E-v13 , now i brought an linguistic argument about the name Ligur and about the south of Liguria which is still called Arbenga according to wikipedia in Italian , so the Ligurians their name their blood and that name Arb tells that they at some time were Arbanians , the purpose of this is to make it easier and/or to help people understand who the E-v13 ppl were.
    But whats your point talking about a ghost people called Indo-European .
    Why you think that the IE people were or are a ghost?

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    I know this is off topic, but just a short reply. There is nothing 'strange' about Albanian genetics. Please inform yourself before you comment. If there is something you don't understand, please open a thread or reply to a thread that has already been opened. There are few members here that are also mods at the Albanian Bloodlines project at ftdna, including myself, and we would be more then happy to help. If you wish to ask in Albanian, you can go here: foleja.net.
    I was referring to EV13 which it's higher in gheg Albans, especially to the east ghegs. Otherwise the I2 is higher in tosk Albanians. Why is that?

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Its not as straight forward as that in haplogroups and human migrations.....the story is much more complex then that and we only know a fraction of it.
    Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.

  9. #34
    Curious Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-08-12
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    2,262
    Points
    15,835
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,835, Level: 38
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 615
    Overall activity: 11.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Not known - O3?
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Not known - M?

    Ethnic group
    Chinese
    Country: Canada-British Columbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    more knowledge about the history
    History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

    Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.

  10. #35
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,503
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,503, Level: 41
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 447
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Generally I have more knowledge about the history. I am an ignorant about genetics. I try to read about genetics, to understand better the history. Definitely I think that the language it's the core of a nation, no matter what's their patriarchal DNA lineage. I only hope that DNA helps me about the history events.
    Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    History is only 5,000 years when as invented. Genetics and archaeology help with pre-history and unwritten history.

    Also one must consider that history is written by the victors so there is a bias somewhere. There maybe more than two versions to events. Each side writing that are favorable to themselves or justification for their actions.
    Agree. I think the genetics helps me to have more knowledge on the events, that's all.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Terminologies such as Greeks, Germanics, and so on are a very recent creation compared to haplogroups creations and their subgroups. They do not really go well together. We can discuss dominant haplogroups in a particular group but a whole haplogroup is not totally representative of a language or a country as these are taken up and shed off according to economies and power of the time.
    Yes, I know that they don't go well together, even so I think the genetics helps us, likewise the archeology and ancient writings, etc. To have a better view onto the historical events, we gather the archeology, genetics and ancient writings, and after we try to make a point.

    2- if one today it's born in Italy and his native language is Italian, his ethnicity is Italian, no matter what could be his DNA. I think the language it's the core of the nation. Genetic help just to know better the spread of ancient population

  13. #38
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Where did you get these numbersa for veneto......................in ftdna North-italy, AlPGEN and friuli-Venezie-Giulia...it has very little ...........it does have E-V35 same as the 5 year natgeno study on the area completed in 2010

    1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
    2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
    3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
    4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
    5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
    6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) Northern Italy is vast so the North Italy Project is not all that dispositive here. Venice is but one city. LOL. Yes, E is like 11-12% in Northern Italy on the whole, and about 9% E-V13.
    2) Veneto is a separate province from Friulia-Venezia Giulia. Venice is a coastal city in Veneto. That it is coastal matters a lot.
    3) E-V13 is a branch of E-M35. In the north & east of Italy virtually all the E is E-V13 (this means that it is E-M35 also).
    4) E-V13 has a strong coastal distribution. That's true pretty much everywhere in Italy, although there is slightly more of it in the mountains & more central parts of the peninsula than along the western coast & in the large west-coast cities, probably due to centuries & centuries of invasions, incursions & immigrations into the west of the peninsula.
    5) The east of Veneto, along the coast where Venice is, is a particular hotspot for E-V13. Same with Liguria, except Liguria as a whole is a particular hotspot because Liguria is entirely coastal. The same is not true for Veneto & Friulia-Venezia Giulia, where much of their provincial territory is inland.
    6) I don't know where your numbers are from, but I've seen studies that put E at around 20% in Venice & coastal Veneto. Pretty much all of that E is E-V13.
    The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

    The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

    Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.

  15. #40
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Nat-geno project was about Venice and the Dogana only , it went from 2005 to 2010 ...........it did not take any data from the veneto unless the sampled people proved that their ancestors ( both sides ) originated from Venice

    The E-M35 was mostly SNP L117

    Ask Nat-geno to send you their data ...........IIRC it had only 156 samples.
    There is an argument to be made that the stricter are the standards the less representative of Venice will be the results. Venice, for a long time, has been riddled with tradesmen, fishermen, ordinary folk. If you want to know the DNA of Venice, go sample the locals. Not people in the diaspora, people in Northern Europe, etc. Moreover, the more documentation you demand, the more likely you are going to skew the results toward the wealthy & well-to-do. If you demand people be able to prove they're from Venice, that their progenitors are from Venice, that their progenitors' progenitors are from Venice, etc. you're basically just sampling the nobility. The numbers you have here therefore are probably more representative of the nobility than Venice as a whole. Look at the extreme R1b numbers! This is exactly what would be expected from such a system. This is like determining the Y-DNA of Americans based upon a sampling of people with the surname "Rockefeller". The Boattini data gives us 70 samples for Veneto as a region. 10% is E-V13 & another 4% other E1b1b. That sounds about right for Veneto as a whole. However, E-V13 has a particular coastal distribution in the east of the Italian peninsula. Therefore I'd expect E-V13 to be slightly to somewhat above 10% in the historic Venetian population, perhaps 12 or 14%. 6-8% seems very, very, very low, but I think it can be explained by the sampling issues I addressed. Poor immigrants & poor residents will be far less likely to be able to prove they are true Venetians.

  16. #41
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,306
    Points
    279,455
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,455, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't know how much E-V13 is in Venice and I don't much care, but it is not at all difficult to prove your ancestry in Italy: it's not like the U.S. Most people's ancestors have moved very little if at all. Records are extremely good and in most instances can be traced back to the mid-1500s when the Council of Trent mandated that birth, marriage, etc. records be kept in the parish. Certainly, going back one hundred or two hundred years or more is normally absolutely no problem, so this can't be the explanation.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    There is an argument to be made that the stricter are the standards the less representative of Venice will be the results. Venice, for a long time, has been riddled with tradesmen, fishermen, ordinary folk. If you want to know the DNA of Venice, go sample the locals. Not people in the diaspora, people in Northern Europe, etc. Moreover, the more documentation you demand, the more likely you are going to skew the results toward the wealthy & well-to-do. If you demand people be able to prove they're from Venice, that their progenitors are from Venice, that their progenitors' progenitors are from Venice, etc. you're basically just sampling the nobility. The numbers you have here therefore are probably more representative of the nobility than Venice as a whole. Look at the extreme R1b numbers! This is exactly what would be expected from such a system. This is like determining the Y-DNA of Americans based upon a sampling of people with the surname "Rockefeller". The Boattini data gives us 70 samples for Veneto as a region. 10% is E-V13 & another 4% other E1b1b. That sounds about right for Veneto as a whole. However, E-V13 has a particular coastal distribution in the east of the Italian peninsula. Therefore I'd expect E-V13 to be slightly to somewhat above 10% in the historic Venetian population, perhaps 12 or 14%. 6-8% seems very, very, very low, but I think it can be explained by the sampling issues I addressed. Poor immigrants & poor residents will be far less likely to be able to prove they are true Venetians.
    I cannot believe you are arguing about 2% ..........all DNA tests regardless of which nation have a few % either way from the results of the samples tested, that is because they do not test 100% of the testables ( if that is a word )

    - There where no Venetians prior 452AD ..........there was only Veneti . ..............there where no venetians in Roman times.
    The Venetians originate from Treviso, Padua and the Dogana ( lagoon area ) ...........these migrants became Venetians over time.

    The Nat-Geno tests IIRC......where to cover about 1000 years ............they also stated


    The Veneti from Brittany do not match with the Veneti of the Adriatic


    To conclude - i know due to archaeology ( Elisa Perego ) .........the Veneti/c people arrived not earlier than 1200BC in the Adriatic and comprise of less than 15% of modern Veneti who must have some % of the indigenous Euganei tribes ( of which Cato the Roman historians state there where 34 towns of Euganei )

  18. #43
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how much E-V13 is in Venice and I don't much care, but it is not at all difficult to prove your ancestry in Italy: it's not like the U.S. Most people's ancestors have moved very little if at all. Records are extremely good and in most instances can be traced back to the mid-1500s when the Council of Trent mandated that birth, marriage, etc. records be kept in the parish. Certainly, going back one hundred or two hundred years or more is normally absolutely no problem, so this can't be the explanation.
    -My point was more a general criticism of setting up barriers to sample admission. I'm not sure how great record keeping was in Venice in say the mid-1800s. I'm not sure how expensive it is for citizens or non-citizens to get such information today. My point is simply that the more barriers you set up, the more you will skew the results toward people with the means & the will to acquire such records.
    -I simply think you're much better off simply sampling the local population, weeding out recent immigrants, etc.
    -I don't know that much about the natgeo study, nor does Sile seem to have provided many details, but at least from what I could glean, they appeared to also be taking samples from Westerners (French, Americans) who claimed Venetian ancestry. I suspect this will further skew the results toward dominant Western haplos like R1b.
    -8% just seems very low for an eastern Italian city that was the center of a maritime republic that lasted more than a millennium & incorporated various E-V13 hotspots? E-V13 is what, 16%, 18% in Rimini just down the coast? That 8% number just seems suspect to me, but I don't have a strong position on the subject. Someone should randomly sample the local population.

  19. #44
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,306
    Points
    279,455
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,455, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Any respectable scientific analysis usually follows standard protocol and insures that all four grandparents come from the same area. That is extraordinarily easy to do in any area of Italy.

    I personally think that ancestry should be tracked back further, especially in Italy, perhaps to great-grandparents at least, unless the testees are all elderly, so at least we know that the "signal" goes back to the 1860s-1880s. Otherwise, with all the migration from southern Italy to central and northern Italy after that point you are going to get unreliable results.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    -My point was more a general criticism of setting up barriers to sample admission. I'm not sure how great record keeping was in Venice in say the mid-1800s. I'm not sure how expensive it is for citizens or non-citizens to get such information today. My point is simply that the more barriers you set up, the more you will skew the results toward people with the means & the will to acquire such records.
    -I simply think you're much better off simply sampling the local population, weeding out recent immigrants, etc.
    -I don't know that much about the natgeo study, nor does Sile seem to have provided many details, but at least from what I could glean, they appeared to also be taking samples from Westerners (French, Americans) who claimed Venetian ancestry. I suspect this will further skew the results toward dominant Western haplos like R1b.
    -8% just seems very low for an eastern Italian city that was the center of a maritime republic that lasted more than a millennium & incorporated various E-V13 hotspots? E-V13 is what, 16%, 18% in Rimini just down the coast? That 8% number just seems suspect to me, but I don't have a strong position on the subject. Someone should randomly sample the local population.
    Record keeping in the mid 1800's in Venice was done by the Austrians ...........The hapsburgs are stated as excellent record keepers in those times as well as the Spanish in most of their history and also the Venetian republic till 1797.

    If the % is skewed it is only because they have only 156 samples and not 100% of all the people that could be sampled ..........but a 5 year project is a long project and this would seem to me that they took great lengths to ensure that the sampled tested where true Venetians.
    You could be correct in that if they found another 100 Venetians the percentages per haplogroups would change and more E could be found .....or not.

    just found this below ..........so we have only 99.

    the Genographics project released the results of the DNA analyses conducted on the 156 Venetian cheek-swabs we had sent to the Unitat de Biologia Evolutiva of the Universitat Pompeu Fabra in Barcelona. After two years of work, we were finally able to look at the DNA evidence which Kyle faithfully tallied up for a first look at where we stand, his Canadianess betrayed by the use of French labels in the maps. Out of the 156 samples we collected, 57 were not viewable on the Genographic site for one of two reasons: 34 were Invalid (not enough DNA?) and 23 others (labeled Faulty in pie chart) simply failed to show up on the site. We have initiated an inquest on these issues and we are hoping to retrieve at least some of these unusable samples. "In the end" (as Adrian is fond of saying), the total number of valid samples thus far is 99.

  21. #46
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Record keeping in the mid 1800's in Venice was done by the Austrians ...........The hapsburgs are stated as excellent record keepers in those times as well as the Spanish in most of their history and also the Venetian republic till 1797.

    If the % is skewed it is only because they have only 156 samples and not 100% of all the people that could be sampled ..........but a 5 year project is a long project and this would seem to me that they took great lengths to ensure that the sampled tested where true Venetians.
    You could be correct in that if they found another 100 Venetians the percentages per haplogroups would change and more E could be found .....or not.
    I can't debate the finer points of the analysis because I don't know what "quality standards" were used.
    I don't even want to concede that Italian record keeping was fantastic at the time because intuitively it seems wrong, knowing what I know about Italian governance generally. I also don't know what the cost is of procuring official records from various former eras. Venice was under Austrian control for roughly 35 years. There was a lot of conflict, instability & government turnover in the area in the 1800 & 1900s.
    I simply looked at the numbers, where some of the samples were from, etc. & saw some red flags.
    Does anyone know what filters were used or where the samples were from? Not as far as I can tell. So to some degree we're arguing in a data vacuum.

  22. #47
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,306
    Points
    279,455
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,455, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Oh for goodness' sakes...all birth, marriage, baptismal and death records are kept in the parishes. All you have to do is walk in and look at them. The parish of the spouses, parents, etc. is listed, so you can just go back from there. You would have to be illiterate and unable to walk or use public transportation not to be able to do it.

    An uncle of mine traced all of my paternal lines going back to the time of the Council of Trent using only parish records. How hard would it be to go back three generations?

    Can people stop opining on things about which they have absolutely no knowledge?

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    I can't debate the finer points of the analysis because I don't know what "quality standards" were used.
    I don't even want to concede that Italian record keeping was fantastic at the time because intuitively it seems wrong, knowing what I know about Italian governance generally. I also don't know what the cost is of procuring official records from various former eras. Venice was under Austrian control for roughly 35 years. There was a lot of conflict, instability & government turnover in the area in the 1800 & 1900s.
    I simply looked at the numbers, where some of the samples were from, etc. & saw some red flags.
    Does anyone know what filters were used or where the samples were from? Not as far as I can tell. So to some degree we're arguing in a data vacuum.
    The tests arranged via Nat-geno is/was initiated by Worcester Polytechnic Institute and I doubt they will run any more DNA testing............they are more concerned in saving the 15kms of texts in the venetian archives using a computer program called UScript ...........they are still there today.

    They also developed ArchEasy to compile these manuscripts
    ArchEasy. The necessary features ofArchEasy were planned and described, and efforts were made to promote its development.Future funding for ArchEasy will functionalize all of its features, and incorporate the autonomous agent approach, a technology that will render the system capable of semi-autonomous data interpretation. Once fully developed, ArchEasy hopes to greatly increase the efficiency of the Venetian archaeological process.

    To conclude, I doubt any more DNA testing will be done

  24. #49
    Banned Achievements:
    1 year registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-11-16
    Posts
    49
    Points
    426
    Level
    4
    Points: 426, Level: 4
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 24
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J

    Ethnic group
    South-German
    Country: USA - Idaho



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh for goodness' sakes...all birth, marriage, baptismal and death records are kept in the parishes. All you have to do is walk in and look at them. The parish of the spouses, parents, etc. is listed, so you can just go back from there. You would have to be illiterate and unable to walk or use public transportation not to be able to do it.

    An uncle of mine traced all of my paternal lines going back to the time of the Council of Trent using only parish records. How hard would it be to go back three generations?

    Can people stop opining on things about which they have absolutely no knowledge?

    1) Woah! You should probably consult your uncle about how easy that was to do. My expectation is it was not very easy, though again, with the right resources it's probably sometimes doable.
    2) From what I could glean, some of these "Venetians" were not current residents, they were people in the diaspora, etc. So yeah, it's easy, just buy a plane ticket, fly to Italy, find the right parish among many wrong parishes, sift through numerous parish records for particular names, trace that name to other names in other parishes, connect dot after dot, hoping that there are no gaps or members born elsewhere, no factors which confuse matters like adoptions or illegitimate births, etc. I'm sure you could do it in an afternoon. Indeed, I bet you did it just sitting there typing. You probably divined your own ancestry psychically using only a seance, a cauldron, some myrrh & a pinch of beet root. : )
    3) Do we even know how many generations they went back? The premises of this dispute seem extremely slippery, since we know so little about the study.
    4) You keep asserting that the record keeping was great. You really haven't offered any evidence for this claim. You just keep asserting & re-asserting it. However, even US governmental record-keeping a mere 100 years ago was pretty darned unreliable. And if there is anything Italians are not known for it's good governance. You also keep claiming it's so easy because "churches kept records". Churches! Ha! I mean, we all know how reliable church records are! And the only evidence you've provided regarding their reliability & the ease with which they're accessed is that your beloved uncle Joe wandered around Naples in a fugue state & did this one afternoon. Very convincing evidence.

    *Nothing in this critique was meant to insult your beloved uncle Joe or the afternoon he spent tracing your ancestry back to the Etruscans.

  25. #50
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,306
    Points
    279,455
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,455, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    You're an American with absolutely no experience of our system, so your expectations are hardly relevant.

    It was my Zio Edoardo, Italian, btw, at least back to the mid-16th century, who made the family tree; not one of those Italian-Americans who often don't even remember the specific town from which their ancestors came. I had to find out for my husband's family, which only took fifteen minutes on the internet looking at immigration records, but they had no idea how to do it.

    Also, stop with the straw man arguments. Where did I say that someone could trace all lines back to the mid-1500s quickly? Of course it takes time. However, the standard protocol for these studies is all four grandparents. That's the protocol for all the percentages with which you agree, btw. That'sfour people. Get it? You can do that quickly even if you have to use church records, which you don't for anything in the last 150 years and more. You can just contact the appropriate government agency and they'll give you the whole run down back at least that far. There are whole websites set up so Italian-Americans can do it.

    I have said numerous times that beyond that point (Council of Trent) nothing can be proved because there are no records. Well, there are records, but usually scanty, sometimes using only first names, and at any rate not reliable enough to draw a clear genealogical chart. By those standards, I could track some of my father's lines back to the mid-1300s and the founding of his ancestral maternal village. Their name is engraved helpfully over the gate to the village along with the date. So no, I can't prove descent from the Etruscans or the later Romans or even the population present in those villages in the beginning of the Dark Ages. I never said that I could, so, again, stop with the straw man arguments.

    Actually, I did most of the research on my mother's side, and indeed, a lot of it has been digitized, sometimes by the local authorities, sometimes, believe it or not, by the LDS. I got a lot of lines back to the 1600s using those digitized records at a branch of their local library.

    You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

    While I'm at it, enough with the OCD please. As Sile has already pointed out what difference does a few percent make? No one sample has results that can be engraved in stone.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •