Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 61

Thread: The great pairings of Y-DNA haplogroups in prehistory

  1. #26
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    682,168
    Level
    100
    Points: 682,168, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We have a sample from Barcin (an Anatolian Neolithic context) that is almost indistinguishable from LBK. If some of these amateur bloggers are to be believed, that sample has just about the same amount of WHG as LBK. I'm content to wait until we get some more samples from the ancient Near East, Greece and the southern Balkans to determine how much admixture took place in early Neolithic Europe.

    As to the I2a lineages, how much of the current I2a in Europe is descended from the I2a found in Neolithic sites versus so called "Slavic" I2a, as just one example? If most of it or a large percentage of it is descended from a population that was in far northern or far eastern Europe in the forest zone, for instance, and was never Neolithicized, but was instead caught up in the Indo-European expansion, then should they be included in any analysis of the relative survival of I2a versus G2a Neolithic lineages? Wouldn't we be comparing apples to oranges? Also, wouldn't we need actual projections of population numbers for these lineages in modern populations, not percentages of the yDna of certain countries to determine "survival" of a lineage?

    Then, how do we determine which G2a lineages were "Neolithic" versus those which came later?

    Until we have detailed subclade analysis of I2a and G2a with some way of assigning these subclades to "cultures", I don't see how we can reach reliable conclusions.

    Plus, at the end of the day, the male samples found in Neolithic contexts were autosomally very similar early Neolithic farmers, so what does it matter if some of their y lineages came from the Near East and some were absorbed in Europe? Maybe Bicicleur is correct and some I2a was absorbed at the Danube Gorges, but if that happened, Barcin tells us it accounted for a few percent autsomally at most. Then it looks like there was minimal mixing for a very long time. Eventually, some more I2a and I1 were absorbed as the farmers spread further. There was probably some founder effect. I don't think we have any evidence for anything else.
    I understand your point about Slavic I2a1b-L621. But I am nevertheless convinced that this branch of I2a also evolved from Balkanic I2a farmers, probably from the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture who later ventured into R1a territory in central Ukraine and were assimilated before later waves of R1a unfurled onto Southeast Europe.

    Anyway that doesn't change anything to the fact that I2a and G2a were found together in most Neolithic sites in Europe, and that the regions where Neolithic ancestry is the strongest today, be it in Iberia, southeast France, Switzerland, Tyrol, Italy or Greece, have a typical blend of I2a and G2a. I did not mention former Yugoslovia or the Carpathians on purpose because the origins of Dinaric or Slavic I2a is not clear enough at present.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #27
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Which calculator is that K8? One where Lithuanians have ~35% ENF or ~2%? Just to put in perspective.
    I don't know. That's why I don't like all these calculators.
    Check this :

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2015/06...nome-from.html

  3. #28
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The high frequency of I2a in Kurdistan also made me wonder if it wasn't the source of Neolithic European I2a. However the only kinds of I2a I have seen in Anatolia are all the "Dinaric" I2a1b2 (L621) variety, and typically the I2a1b2a1 (CTS5966) subclade, which is too young to be Neolithic.
    my guess are the Cimmerians, i.e. a steppe origin for Kurdistan

  4. #29
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    999
    Points
    13,064
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,064, Level: 34
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Maciamo, bronze had little to do with early IE expansions. Corded Ware had no bronze. Bell Beaker had copper not bronze.
    And that is already >1000 years after very first IE expansions and linguistic branching...
    Had Sredny Stog, Khvalinsk bronze?

  5. #30
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    682,168
    Level
    100
    Points: 682,168, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Maciamo, bronze had little to do with early IE expansions. Corded Ware had no bronze. Bell Beaker had copper not bronze.
    And that is already >1000 years after very first IE expansions and linguistic branching...
    Had Sredny Stog, Khvalinsk bronze?
    That is not true. The Corded Ware started in the Late Copper Age and finished in the Early Bronze Age. The Bell Beaker culture was not Indo-European originally. It was a Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic culture in direct continuity of the Megalithic cultures when it started in Iberia. R1b people invaded the Bell Beaker culture from the east and brought bronze weapons and artefacts in the Late Bell Beaker period.

  6. #31
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    No strictly speaking Neolitich samples (no copper age or similar) have been found only in Hungary, Germany, France, Sweden and maybe Spain. Quite a lot of samples from Hungary turned out as J2 and E-M78. E-V13 appeared much later.

    The only J2 which turned out in Hungary was a Bronze Age Sample. And yes we do have some from Italy, Spain too and one of the Thracian Copper Age sample was obviously a assimilated farmer since his autosomal DNA was almost 100% Ötzi like. But as already mentioned more samples will shed more light.

  7. #32
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I checked. K8 : Barcin has just 2 components 81.3 % ENF and 18.7 % WHG.
    We know I HG were WHG.
    But we don't know about neolithic J2, they may have been WHG too, while both descend from IJ
    Maybe ENF is neolithic G2

    we don't know
    Thats what I am arguing all about. The fact that Js close cousins (I and even K) are both either connected to WHG or ANE makes me think J represents a EEF/ANE (West Asian) hybrid.

    ENF is not real, it is a theoretcial component created by blogggers by the assumption that early farmers had no WHG which we now know isn't true (There was something like 5-10% extra WHG admixture in Europe it seems) So ENF doesn't really exist.

  8. #33
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The only J2 which turned out in Hungary was a Bronze Age Sample. And yes we do have some from Italy, Spain too and one of the Thracian Copper Age sample was obviously a assimilated farmer since his autosomal DNA was almost 100% Ötzi like. But as already mentioned more samples will shed more light.
    Two J2 were found in neolitich Sopot and Lengyel cultures. Samples from Italy are from the Copper Age (Remedello and Oetzi), while the Spanish and French neolitichs were all I2a, E-V13 and G2a.

  9. #34
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Thats what I am arguing all about. The fact that Js close cousins (I and even K) are both either connected to WHG or ANE makes me think J represents a EEF/ANE (West Asian) hybrid.

    ENF is not real, it is a theoretcial component created by blogggers by the assumption that early farmers had no WHG which we now know isn't true (There was something like 5-10% extra WHG admixture in Europe it seems) So ENF doesn't really exist.
    ENF is simply WHG+Basal Eurasian in a sense, without the post Mesolitich North Asian component from the steppe.



    Basal Eurasian probably came from E1b proto-afro asiatic speakers.

  10. #35
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Two J2 were found in neolitich Sopot and Lengyel cultures. Samples from Italy are from the Copper Age (Remedello and Oetzi), while the Spanish and French neolitichs were all I2a, E-V13 and G2a.
    Ötzi and Remedello, it doesn't matter if they are from Copper Age had a farmer signature. Therefore they should be relatively representative of the yDNA found earlier there. Lengyel/Sopot (both connected) are the only cultures which have yield yet any J Haplogroup. And we already clarified this in our other posts. And as I said it must be rather a early arrival of the major migration from late Neolithic/Bronze Age. We have T sample from German Neolithic who looks like a mix of Yamna and EEF that should give an indiciation.
    Last edited by Alan; 20-07-15 at 18:40.

  11. #36
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    ENF is simply WHG+Basal Eurasian in a sense, without the post Mesolitich North Asian component from the steppe.



    Basal Eurasian probably came from E1b proto-afro asiatic speakers.
    Basal Eurasian predates any modern linguistic group. What Afro_Asiatic speakers brought, or more correctly increased was a "Red Sea" type ancestry, which in itself is simply 3/4 EEF + 1/4 SSA.
    ENF does not exist. It is a theoretical component. the map you show speaks of EEF. And it does not show EEF being derived from WHG and Basal Eurasian. It shows something "WHG related" and Basal Eurasian being the source elements of EEF.

    But yes I agree EEF is basically a Basal Eurasian and UHG (WHG like) hybrid.
    Last edited by Alan; 20-07-15 at 18:41.

  12. #37
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There are other samples from older studies in Italy as far as I know. Lengyel/Sopot (both connected) are the only cultures which have yield yet any J Haplogroup. And we already clarified this in our other posts so I don't quite get why we are turning in a cycle. And as I said it must be rather a early arrival of the major migration from late Neolithic/Bronze Age. We have T* sample from German Neolithic who looks like a mix of Yamna and EEF that should give an indiciation.
    There are no older Italian samples. Only copper Age Oetzi and 2 samples from Remedello. Sopot and Lengyel are early Neolitich cultures (7000 years old) and make a good percentage of real Neolitich samples we got so far. So it's not that J2 arrived only in late Neolithic/Bronze Age as you wish.

  13. #38
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Neolithic, let alone Basal Eurasian predates any modern linguistic group. What Afro_Asiatic speakers brought, or more correctly increased was a "Red Sea" type ancestry, which in itself is simply 3/4 EEF + 1/4 SSA.
    ENF does not exist. It is a theoretical component. the map you show speaks of EEF. And it does not show EEF being derived from WHG and Basal Eurasian. It shows something "WHG related" and Basal Eurasian being the source elements of EEF.

    But yes I agree EEF is basically a Basal Eurasian and UHG (WHG like) hybrid.
    Proto-Afro Asiatic developed in the late Mesolitich, so it's comparable with the spread of the basal Eurasian component.

    ENF is a real component, and it includes Basal Eurasian.

  14. #39
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't understand this dispute over J2. We've been over this in other threads.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post461135

    "The J2 was from 4990-4850 BC. One was found in Lengyel and one in Sopot culture." These are Neolithic cultures. Ipso facto, J2 was in Europe by the Neolithic. I don't think you can even call it late Neolithic, although that would be nice for me because that's in line with what I had predicted.

    Now it seems the argument has moved on to whether most of it came in the Bronze Age instead of the Neolithic. I have no idea how one could make that determination. We don't even know yet whether it was J2a or J2b, do we?

    Perhaps it will turn out that it was J2b, and, to quote myself...

    "The question remaining is were J2 and E-M78, for example, present in the earliest Neolithic in the southern most regions of Europe, and just didn't move north until later, or were they a slightly different Neolithic population that entered even southern Europe slightly later than G2a?"

    This is what the author of the paper has to say:
    "The three new NRY, J, C, and Eb1b1a signalize new population elements in the Sopot community, which subsisted during and after the Lengyel period of the region as well."

    "It's difficult to define the origin of these new components..."

    If this was a second wave of the Neolithic, perhaps it consisted of people like those represented by the new Neolithic Anatolian sample found near the remains of Troy (but preceding it). The abstract indicated it was slightly different from the early European farmers. Hopefully those results will soon be released and they will be able to find some yDna.

    Of course, some J2 no doubt also came to Europe during the Bronze Age, perhaps particularly J2a. It seems to have had a different trajectory into Europe, sort of bypassing northern Greece. When did it get to Crete? I think that was a way station. The answer to that question will explain a great deal.

    We don't know the relative percentages of how much came when,(although samples in the pipeline may give us clues) and honestly, who cares other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  15. #40
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't know what ENF means on the internet anymore. Every "calculator" defines it differently. What it should mean is the autosomal signature of the first farmers in the Near East. It should be based on a sample of a farmer in the ancient Near East. End of story.

    We do actually now have a Near Eastern farmer in Barcin. So, if people are going to compute percentages of ENF in anyone, comparisons should be done using that sample. If that isn't of sufficiently high quality, and until we have a better one, EEF should be used since Stuttgart is so similar to Barcin.

    The caveat is that we don't know yet if they were all like Barcin. Paschou et al posits that the Neolithic people who went to Europe left from the area near where southeast Anatolia and northern Syria meet. That seems to be the route accepted by Haak et al. I think it's reasonable to conclude that some of the coastal Anatolia farmers would have made the trip as well. However, we don't yet have a sample from that area in that period. Were they similar to Barcin? We don't know. What about the farmers further south in the more Natufian areas? Were they substantially different? How about the farmers near the Zagros? These people had all been exchanging technology and animals for thousands of years before they went to Europe, so perhaps they were pretty similar, but we don't know yet.

    Haak et al map of Neolithic and Anatolian IE.jpg

    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.abstract
    Perhaps when we have a couple of samples, including the "second wave" ones, they should use a "cluster" to do these analyses.

    As to "Basal Eurasian", even Lazaridis et al weren't sure of its precise meaning. Anyway, it's irrelevant to the question of how much turnover was there in Europe with the Neolithic migrations.

  16. #41
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Proto-Afro Asiatic developed in the late Mesolitich, so it's comparable with the spread of the basal Eurasian component.

    ENF is a real component, and it includes Basal Eurasian.
    Oldest estimates for Proto Afro_Asiatic are 8000 BC. Neolithicum started in Western Asia by 10000 BC. Since when is 8000BC late mesolithic? Let alone the expansion of Afro_Asiatic speakers into the Levant was allot later by late Neolithic. how can Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers be the source for Basal Eurasian if they didn't even existed yet?


    ENF is not a real component. Could you please give me a scientific paper using ENF as a component?

    It doesn't matter if Ötzi or Remedello are from Copper and Bronze Age if those Guys are obviously descend of farmers since they have a farmer signature.
    So stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.

  17. #42
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know what ENF means on the internet anymore. Every "calculator" defines it differently. What it should mean is the autosomal signature of the first farmers in the Near East. It should be based on a sample of a farmer in the ancient Near East. End of story.

    .
    The ENF he speaks about is a theoretical component introduced by Eurogenes based on assumptions that EEF got all their WHG when they reached Europe and mixed with H&G. So ENF == EEF. ENF in the sense that it is a different component to EEF, doesn't exist.

    Now to J*. the point is that J was only found in Neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe which are geographically closer to Western Asian. Therefore it is save to assume that individuals of new waves would reach this region earlier than any other. The lack of J in any of the other EUropean Neolithic cultures bringt me to the point that J was a mostly a second (late Neolithic/Bronze Age) wave of herders/farmers. Thats my point. If it was among the first Neolithic wave, we would see it in Neolithic Spain, Germany, France, Scandinavia and Copper Age farmer individuals from Italy.

    Yet I could be all wrong and J could be representing a "East European early neolithic Haplogroup".

  18. #43
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The ENF he speaks about is a theoretical component introduced by Eurogenes based on assumptions that EEF got all their WHG when they reached Europe and mixed with H&G. So ENF == EEF. ENF in the sense that it is a different component to EEF, doesn't exist.

    Now to J*. the point is that J was only found in Neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe which are geographically closer to Western Asian. Therefore it is save to assume that individuals of new waves would reach this region earlier than any other. The lack of J in any of the other EUropean Neolithic cultures bringt me to the point that J was a mostly a second (late Neolithic/Bronze Age) wave of herders/farmers. Thats my point. If it was among the first Neolithic wave, we would see it in Neolithic Spain, Germany, France, Scandinavia and Copper Age farmer individuals from Italy.

    Yet I could be all wrong and J could be representing a "East European early neolithic Haplogroup".
    There's no way we can know at present whether all the early farmers in the Near East were like Barcin, so the statement that ENF=EEF, while it may be true based on current samples, may not in fact be the case. We'll have to wait and see. It might have been the ENF that went to Europe, however, that I'll grant, and if that is the case, that would be the standard to use in measuring how much additional WHG was picked up from foragers in Europe.

    As to "J2" in Europe, I don't get this insistence that it was found in "eastern Europe". This is the location of the Sopot culture. It's just north of the Balkans, if not technically in it, and rather more to the west than to the east. It's certainly not in "Eastern Europe".


    It most likely traversed the Balkans from south to north before reaching that area, like many other lineages before it, and as the authors of the paper seem to imply. Perhaps it came from northwest Anatolia. From the southern Balkans it may have moved on to Italy, as Cardial did before it. I will grant you that it might have taken a while to get to southern Spain, for example, although perhaps not if it took to the sea. Whether all of this happened as part of the early Neolithic and then these lineages stalled in the south or whether it was part of a second wave Neolithic I don't know, although my hunch is that it is the latter. This also has nothing to do with whether more came in the Bronze Age, as some undoubtedly did, and perhaps in larger quantities.

    Unless you're implying that it came due west from the coast of the Black Sea? Even then, we don't know how quickly it spread to the west from there. How long would it have taken to get to eastern central Italy from Sopot? At some places along the Adriatic you can see to the opposite shore. There's no way of knowing until we turn up more ancient samples. We don't have a single ancient yDna sample from southern Greece or southern Italy, or southern Spain for that matter, so I don't see any evidence supporting this kind of certainty. That doesn't mean that by happenstance it might not turn out to be true, of course.

  19. #44
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Oldest estimates for Proto Afro_Asiatic are 8000 BC. Neolithicum started in Western Asia by 10000 BC. Since when is 8000BC late mesolithic? Let alone the expansion of Afro_Asiatic speakers into the Levant was allot later by late Neolithic. how can Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers be the source for Basal Eurasian if they didn't even existed yet?

    ENF is not a real component. Could you please give me a scientific paper using ENF as a component?

    It doesn't matter if Ötzi or Remedello are from Copper and Bronze Age if those Guys are obviously descend of farmers since they have a farmer signature.
    So stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.
    Proto-Afro Asiatic started in Africa, not in Western Asia. 8000 BC is right in late mesolitich in Eastern Africa, brosky.

    ENF is a real component since Lazaridis et al said that EEF is a mix of WHG and some Middle Eastern component which has basal eurasian inside of it.

    Remedello and Oetzi could be from anywhere as far we know. Let's wait for more real neolitich samples.

  20. #45
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I don't think Barcin people were among the first farmers to move into Europe.
    I would rather expect them to be part of the 2nd wave.
    Most of them moved into western Bulgaria and Roumenia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture
    And I guess some of them ended up in Sopot.
    Hence the J2 individuals.

  21. #46
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    There are no older Italian samples. Only copper Age Oetzi and 2 samples from Remedello. Sopot and Lengyel are early Neolitich cultures (7000 years old) and make a good percentage of real Neolitich samples we got so far. So it's not that J2 arrived only in late Neolithic/Bronze Age as you wish.
    you do realise that the German neolithic samples are 5500BC plus which means 7500 years old , which means they are older than the spanish samples and older than sopot and lengyel samples
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  22. #47
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't think Barcin people were among the first farmers to move into Europe.
    I would rather expect them to be part of the 2nd wave.
    Most of them moved into western Bulgaria and Roumenia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture
    And I guess some of them ended up in Sopot.
    Hence the J2 individuals.
    Barcin is pre-pottery Neolithic 8400 BP, or roughly 6400 BC.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0129102-t001

    See: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ghlight=Barcin

    Sopot is about 1500 years later, at around 4800-5000 BC. Are we talking about the same people even if the movement into the Balkans started in the same general geographic area?

    The archaeologists excavating the site don't see any influence at this time from Barcin into the Balkans.
    http://www.nit-istanbul.org/projects...uk-excavations
    "Although its location suggests easy access to the Balkans from Anatolia, Neolithic archaeological assemblages on either side of the Marmara region do not demonstrate the expected similarity that can result from intensive social interactions."

    From my other readings on the spread of the Neolithic, there was apparently movement over time from further south and east toward the northern coasts of Anatolia. Perhaps that's the ultimate source of the "second wave" that Haak saw in the changes in mtDna in central Europe in those earlier papers?

    This is the abstract of a paper on another Anatolian sample, Kumteppe. That paper should be very interesting, and the genome as well. The sample is from roughly 4700 BC, and given the imprecision of datings, roughly contemporaneous with Sopot.

    "Anatolia played a key role in the Eurasian Neolithisation. The expansion from this area was driven west and northwards by migration, but we know little about the actual establishing of Neolithic societies in Anatolia, and what kind of population dynamics affected their gene pool. We present the first ancient genome wide data from a 6700 year old Anatolian excavated from a late Neolithic context in Kumtepe. We show that this individual display genetic similarities to the European Neolithic genepool, which anchors the Neolithic expansion in Europe to Anatolia. Further, the Kumtepe individual does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern-day populations from the Near East and Caucasus, suggesting gene flow into Anatolia in the late Neolithic. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with gene flow into Europe from or through the Neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the Neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia. This area was entangled in a complex web of contacts with other parts of the Near East, and the distribution of genetic variation in early European farmers suggests that the contacts with the European continent also remained and replenished with people's constant movements in and out of Anatolia."

    So maybe these are the "second wave" people? Maybe they carried J2?

  23. #48
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    999
    Points
    13,064
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,064, Level: 34
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 286
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That is not true. The Corded Ware started in the Late Copper Age and finished in the Early Bronze Age. The Bell Beaker culture was not Indo-European originally. It was a Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic culture in direct continuity of the Megalithic cultures when it started in Iberia. R1b people invaded the Bell Beaker culture from the east and brought bronze weapons and artefacts in the Late Bell Beaker period.
    Well, Central Euro bronze age started 1800-1600 bce with Unetice, when R1a and R1b was already all over the place for at least millenia.
    4000 bce was the earliest branching of PIE and that had nothing to do with bronze.

    Corded Ware expansion. You are right it ENDED in early bronze age, but I am not sure Scandinavian, Baltic, Fatyanovo expansions had anything to do with bronze (or even copper?). Do you have sources claiming otherwise?
    After 2000 bce bronze played its role, but that is long after PIE was split in dialects.

    Bell Beaker. When the first bb bronze weapons are found/dated? Is it before or after Allentoft's R1b samples?

  24. #49
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,254
    Points
    41,728
    Level
    63
    Points: 41,728, Level: 63
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Barcin is pre-pottery Neolithic 8400 BP, or roughly 6400 BC.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0129102-t001

    See: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ghlight=Barcin

    Sopot is about 1500 years later, at around 4800-5000 BC. Are we talking about the same people even if the movement into the Balkans started in the same general geographic area?

    The archaeologists excavating the site don't see any influence at this time from Barcin into the Balkans.
    http://www.nit-istanbul.org/projects...uk-excavations
    "Although its location suggests easy access to the Balkans from Anatolia, Neolithic archaeological assemblages on either side of the Marmara region do not demonstrate the expected similarity that can result from intensive social interactions."

    From my other readings on the spread of the Neolithic, there was apparently movement over time from further south and east toward the northern coasts of Anatolia. Perhaps that's the ultimate source of the "second wave" that Haak saw in the changes in mtDna in central Europe in those earlier papers?

    This is the abstract of a paper on another Anatolian sample, Kumteppe. That paper should be very interesting, and the genome as well. The sample is from roughly 4700 BC, and given the imprecision of datings, roughly contemporaneous with Sopot.

    "Anatolia played a key role in the Eurasian Neolithisation. The expansion from this area was driven west and northwards by migration, but we know little about the actual establishing of Neolithic societies in Anatolia, and what kind of population dynamics affected their gene pool. We present the first ancient genome wide data from a 6700 year old Anatolian excavated from a late Neolithic context in Kumtepe. We show that this individual display genetic similarities to the European Neolithic genepool, which anchors the Neolithic expansion in Europe to Anatolia. Further, the Kumtepe individual does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern-day populations from the Near East and Caucasus, suggesting gene flow into Anatolia in the late Neolithic. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with gene flow into Europe from or through the Neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the Neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia. This area was entangled in a complex web of contacts with other parts of the Near East, and the distribution of genetic variation in early European farmers suggests that the contacts with the European continent also remained and replenished with people's constant movements in and out of Anatolia."

    So maybe these are the "second wave" people? Maybe they carried J2?
    well yes, I meant 2nd wave may have come form NW Anatolia
    and IMO Hamangia culture, west Bulgaria & Roumenia, 5250 BC is the main expression of this migration
    but they may also have influenced neolithic SW Europe and hence triggered Sopot and Lengyel
    and yes allthough it is the same area this was 1000+ years later than the Barcin people whose aDNA was analysed
    IMO Barcin people were not ancestral to LBK and therefore there should be another explanation for the similarity in autosomal DNA

  25. #50
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,822
    Points
    249,005
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,005, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    well yes, I meant 2nd wave may have come form NW Anatolia
    and IMO Hamangia culture, west Bulgaria & Roumenia, 5250 BC is the main expression of this migration
    but they may also have influenced neolithic SW Europe and hence triggered Sopot and Lengyel
    and yes allthough it is the same area this was 1000+ years later than the Barcin people whose aDNA was analysed
    IMO Barcin people were not ancestral to LBK and therefore there should be another explanation for the similarity in autosomal DNA
    Ah, I misunderstood you then. We largely agree, except that I think the pre-pottery Neolithic people who moved along the coast of Anatolia (and into Europe) might have been pretty similar.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •