The great pairings of Y-DNA haplogroups in prehistory

[Angela]

Maciamo;462742]I understand your point about Slavic I2a1b-L621. But I am nevertheless convinced that this branch of I2a also evolved from Balkanic I2a farmers, probably from the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture who later ventured into R1a territory in central Ukraine and were assimilated before later waves of R1a unfurled onto Southeast Europe.

Whether that's what happened, or whether it was a slightly different clade that was never Neolithicized, my point was that in the case of both I2a and G2a, the clades which had large expansions after the late Neolithic were those which happened to be either on the steppe or in eastern areas where they were swept up in the Indo-European migrations. I doubt those I2a and G2a people, even if their lineages started out in CT, were any longer very Neolithic farmer like. Autosomal signatures can disappear or at least greatly diminish in five or six generations. At any rate, I don't think this phenomenon had anything to do with competition during the Neolithic itself.

Anyway that doesn't change anything to the fact that I2a and G2a were found together in most Neolithic sites in Europe, and that the regions where Neolithic ancestry is the strongest today, be it in Iberia, southeast France, Switzerland, Tyrol, Italy or Greece, have a typical blend of I2a and G2a. I did not mention former Yugoslovia or the Carpathians on purpose because the origins of Dinaric or Slavic I2a is not clear enough at present.

I agree.

[bicicleur]

check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers daughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?

[LeBrok]

check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers doughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?

What's the conclusion? The better life leads to extinction? ;)

[bicicleur]

these HG had a better life than EEF as long as they had enough hunting grounds
but EEF population explosion changed all that

[gyms]

Maciamo;462742]I understand your point about Slavic I2a1b-L621. But I am nevertheless convinced that this branch of I2a also evolved from Balkanic I2a farmers, probably from the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture who later ventured into R1a territory in central Ukraine and were assimilated before later waves of R1a unfurled onto Southeast Europe.

Slavic I2a1b-L621?
Balkanic I2a farmers?
Cucuteni-Trypillian I2a1b?

Do you have any aDNA evidence to prove your wild fantasy?

[LeBrok]

these HG had a better life than EEF as long as they had enough hunting grounds
but EEF population explosion changed all that

How was their life better if most of their kids were dead? It was the EEF who overpopulated HGs.

[Maleth]

check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers daughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?

When we talk about Hunter gatherers and Early European Farmers I like to make an analogy with more recent examples of interactions to get a clear picture to what the clash would have been like when this took place although it does not seem too clear at present how this has happened. I believe that both groups were deeply set in their ways with huge cultural differences and believes and none of them was ready to adopt the others way of life without a high degree of friction misunderstanding and general outlook. Both would have perceived the world extremely different and what was sacred and important to one was an absurdity to the other. Culture clashes entrenched with deep emotions for one reason or another would have been inevitable.

I like to compare it to some extent to what has happened with aboriginal Australians and to some extent to the American Indians when they were taken over of Europeans and their treatment and the way they were perceived is still visibly traumatic to this day and age. Assimilation is never an easy thing, so its not a matter of 'Oh hello Welcome nice to see you, how can we work together situation'. Thats not really what human nature is like and history proved it time and time again. I don't think this analogy is too far fetched (even though it can sound like it) although, the technology divide was more intense then the Neolithic, but different enough to cause the same reactions and results devastation and difficulty on many levels absorbed by anger and fear of change and the superior bullying attitude that humans are famous for on one group over another. The same scenario could have repeated itself with the arrival of the indo-Europeans migrations later.

[bicicleur]

When we talk about Hunter gatherers and Early European Farmers I like to make an analogy with more recent examples of interactions to get a clear picture to what the clash would have been like when this took place although it does not seem too clear at present how this has happened. I believe that both groups were deeply set in their ways with huge cultural differences and believes and none of them was ready to adopt the others way of life without a high degree of friction misunderstanding and general outlook. Both would have perceived the world extremely different and what was sacred and important to one was an absurdity to the other. Culture clashes entrenched with deep emotions for one reason or another would have been inevitable.

I like to compare it to some extent to what has happened with aboriginal Australians and to some extent to the American Indians when they were taken over of Europeans and their treatment and the way they were perceived is still visibly traumatic to this day and age. Assimilation is never an easy thing, so its not a matter of 'Oh hello Welcome nice to see you, how can we work together situation'. Thats not really what human nature is like and history proved it time and time again. I don't think this analogy is too far fetched (even though it can sound like it) although, the technology divide was more intense then the Neolithic, but different enough to cause the same reactions and results devastation and difficulty on many levels absorbed by anger and fear of change and the superior bullying attitude that humans are famous for on one group over another. The same scenario could have repeated itself with the arrival of the indo-Europeans migrations later.

for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream
that is because the farmers couldn't exploit their technological advance in the Gorge and they had forgotten survival skills without neolithic technology
as you mention, distrust between both groups must have been huge
nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct

[Maleth]

for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream

It would have taken its natural course and some tribes would have survived longer in their way of life (like what happened in both Australian and America and in other more isolated locations world wide, all depending on geographical and economical situation which could permit it.

nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct

It would be all an evolution with different scenarios in different locations evolving over a period of hundreds of years. In all groups one would find the ultra nationalists who are not willing to change anything and if you do seems like its an insult to their forefather and would even remain so even if they starve to death.You get moderates and progressives....meaning people that are willing to learn from others and adopt best practices without much emotion and feeling of doom.

Our present traits would be similar ancient humans its just they did not term everything like we do today. Tribe leaders had a lot to do with how much they would have the willingness to preserve their way of life or moved forward and their perception of things influencing the people that followed. It all happens very gradual and people (of the same stock) in different areas would adopt lifestyles and economies that people in other areas would not accept simply because their overall experiences would be different. The world is going through a similar situation at present but on global level and not just regional. It will be two steps forward and one backwards, but its an ever evolving process.

[LeBrok]

for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream
that is because the farmers couldn't exploit their technological advance in the Gorge and they had forgotten survival skills without neolithic technology
as you mention, distrust between both groups must have been huge
nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct

I agree for most, except the highlighted part. Farmers could have traded their daughters for some services and alliances. Very often HGs lacking women, because of high mortality in small tribes, they need to "outsource" them. HGs are also known to steal women from other tribes or farmers. I doubt farmer women are ever attracted to HGs lifestyle. Though, they might have been attracted to handsome warriors of HG type, in romantic and sexual sens.

[Paleoguy]

I think your comment is a bit inappropriate. Of course is a speculation but its an educated one based on present data available about y dna. My only concern is that there is not enough data for the whole regions. Regions like Anatolia or Levant are vast and there is need for a lot more data to draw a more accurate conclusion. Anatolia to my point of view is a collection of ancient peoples regardless the fact that today they live under the state of Turkey.
If some haplogroups were more successful than others has a lot to do with their inherited immunity against illnesses. The haplogroup R appears to be resistible. Balkan populations were hit by plague more than two times in the last 1500 years but I dont know any plague in North with Balkan or Italian devastation results.

Maciamo, I have not seen any evidence that I2 is high or present at all among Kurds. This internet myth is based on some super outdated study that did not distinguish correctly between some branches of J and I2. A similar scenario existed for the Caucacus mountains, in which Ossetians or nearby population was shown to have high amounts of haplogroup I, later studies of different samples found zero I2 but plenty of J.

Turkish I2a Dinaric is from Balkan Muslims.

If I2a Dinaric was present in the ancient Balkan, than it would be common haplogroup in the Roman and Greek world. Yet this is not the case at all.