Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 61

Thread: The great pairings of Y-DNA haplogroups in prehistory

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,712
    Points
    704,021
    Level
    100
    Points: 704,021, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 24.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Post The great pairings of Y-DNA haplogroups in prehistory

    When G2a Neolithic farmers started advancing from the Near East into Europe, they encountered indigenous hunter-gathering tribes belonging to various haplogroups (C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2a, I2b, I2c, and possibly even H). Interestingly, most of these lineages didn't survive in significant number today, except I1 and I2a. I1 had a late start and only prospered in the North European Plain and Scandinavia from the Chalcolithic onwards.

    The great winner during the Neolithic period was haplogroup I2a, which consistently shows up alongside G2a in most Neolithic sites tested to date (Starčevo, Körös, Lengyel, LBK, Cardium Pottery, Megalithic), and seem to increase in frequency over time and as one moves towards Northwest Europe. Based on the few samples available it appears to have been particularly common in the Megalithic culture. All four Megalithic Y-DNA samples (from France and Spain) belonged to I2a1 or I2a2.

    Nowadays I2a is more common than G2a everywhere in Europe except in insular Greece and Cyprus, peninsular Italy and Sicily (but not Sardinia), Tyrol, south-eastern France (Auvergne, Provence), and about half of Iberia (Portugal, Asturias, Cantabria, Castile, Murcia). Everywhere else I2a dominates, even in regions with high Neolithic ancestry and Sardinia and Corsica (which have respectively 3x and 2x more I2a1a1 than G2a).

    Therefore, although I2a was just one of many Mesolithic hunter-gatherers' lineages in Europe when agriculturists arrived, it is the only one that readily embraced the new lifestyle and managed to supersede the original farmers in number. I2a's destiny was not only linked to its ability to chum with G2a, but we could say that G2a farmers catalysed I2a's success. I2a people integrated G2a tribes, learned the new Neolithic techniques from them and became so good at them that over time the student overtook the master.

    What is amazing too is the symbiosis that operated between I2a and G2a throughout the Neolithic period. It's hard to find one without the other. Their destiny was intertwined as soon as the two met in the Balkans. That would explain also why Italy and Greek islands have so much more G2a than I2a. If G2a spread directly from Anatolia by boat to the Greek islands and then over to Italy, I2a wouldn't have been part of the migration. On the other hand, I2a probably re-expanded many times from the Danube region to continental Greece since the Neolithic so that the whole Balkans became somewhat homogenised. As for Sardinia, it appears to have been colonised from the Iberia peninsula via the Balearic Island, following the west to east currents in this part of the Mediterranean. If the winds were the same in the Neolithic as they are today it would have been impossible to sail directly from Italy to Sardinia, except perhaps from Liguria via Corsica (but Neolithic farmers didn't have maps or compasses and Liguria wasn't the naval hub it later became under the auspices of the Genoan Republic).

    This symbiotic pairing between G2a and I2a is not unique in prehistory. I can think of several other cases in which a small group of men belonging to haplogroup brought a more advanced technology or lifestyle to another region, which were enthusiastically adopted by local men, who eventually spread it well beyond their ancestral borders.

    This is what happened with R1b and R1a in the Early Bronze Age. The R1b cattle pastoralists from the Yamna culture expanded north into the forest-steppe of R1a tribes, who quickly adopted their lifestyle, technologies (bronze working, wagons) and apparently also their Indo-European language, and spread them to the Baltic region, Siberia, Central Asia, South Asia and the Middle East. An R1b minority always accompanied these great R1a migrations, but the further they went and the higher the proportion of R1a increased against R1b (from 7:3 in Corded Ware to perhaps 30:1 in India).

    What is fascinating is that this adoption and lifestyle and technologies doesn't always happen, and actually is the exception rather than the rule. Only R1a tribes adopted the ways of R1b Yamna people. The cultures of Neolithic Europe collapsed when R1b tribes moved into their regions, and eventually R1b came to replace over half of the indigenous lineages in central and western Europe, and in some regions up to 80% of all lineages.

    One of the few native Mesolithic/Neolithic paternal lineages that seems to have benefited from the Indo-European migrations is I1. Now the dominant lineage in Scandinavia, it was apparently absent from Scandinavia during both the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods, and fairly rare in Neolithic Central Europe. It first appears in Scandinavia during the Corded Ware period. In all likelihood I1 picked up around Poland or North Germany by the invading Corded Ware people, and I1 was among the few indigenous lineages who managed to adapt to the new lifestyle and make the most of it. It probably took only one man, as all modern I1 people descend from a common ancestor who lived approximately 4700 years ago, at the beginning of the Corded Ware period. I1 had existed for thousands of years before that, but all other side lineages are now extinct.

    Another fascinating case is the pairing of Proto-Semitic haplogroup E-M34 and indigenous Southwest Asian haplogroup J1-P58. E-M34 is thought to have arrived from Northeast Africa to the Levant around 3750 BCE, during the Copper Age. The local Levantine lineages would have comprised haplogroups G2, J1, J2 and T. The proportions are unknown at present, but what seems clear is that J1 later became the dominant paternal lineage of Semitic people, even though Afro-Asiatic languages originated with haplogroup E1b1b, and Proto-Semitic with E-M34.

    In South Levantine countries like Lebanon and Jordan, E-M34 and J1-P58 are found in equal proportions (around 20% each in Lebanon and 30% each in Jordan). But everywhere else in the Middle East J1-P58 is 3 to 6 times more common than E-M34. This could obviously be a result of a strong founder effect during the Muslim expansion from Saudi Arabia, which could have spread mostly J1 lineages. But even Saudi Arabia has 4.5 times more J1 than E-M34 to start with, so J1 must already have superseded E-M34 by the Bronze Age, when Semitic speakers moved from Levant to Saudi Arabia.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111
    Points
    6,097
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,097, Level: 23
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 453
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Most of this stuff is borderline schizophrenic speculation

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Arame's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    182
    Points
    6,444
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,444, Level: 23
    Level completed: 79%, Points required for next Level: 106
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Armenia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks Maciamo.
    Interesting summary.
    What You think about possible pairing of E-V13 and J2 at last In Balkan as a second Neolithic wave?

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    this may be speculation, but it is a very interesting question which I've asked myself too, and I think it may be very interesting to exchange ideas

    IMO the only indogenous European mesolithic population was I. F, C1a2 and H were picked up by G2a in Anatolia or the northern Levant.
    Cardium ware was also found in the northern Levant before it spread to Mediterranean Europe.
    An Anatolian source of F, C1a2 or H could be Belbasi , Belbidi and Carain , west of Antalya : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belba%C5%9F%C4%B1

    There were I populations living along the Aegean coast and the Greek, Albanian and Montenegro coast of the Adriatic.
    There was a large population in the Danube Gorge and a more dispersed population in the Carpathian Basin.
    IMO these were the I populations that mixed with G2a. I dont think LBK people mixed with HG.
    There was also a large population along the shores of the Netherlands, NW Germany and Denmark : Swifterbant end Ertebölle.
    These tribes may have mixed with Lyengel and later TRB and British neolithic. But as we know now, Lyengel also had J2 people.

    Furthermore there seems to have been an expansion lateron with I2a1a-M26 people. Maciamo above mentions above this expansion started in Iberia, via the Baleares into Sardegna and Corsica.

    What strikes me even more, the G2a people seem to have had much more trouble to survive the invasions of R1a and R1b and of later Bronze and Iron age invasions.
    I2a2 was allready an equal partner with R1b in arsenic bronze Vucedol culture, 2800 BC. These same I2a2 where present in the subsequent Vatya culture with hillforts and probably horses.
    The most succesfull coöperation was I1 with R1a Corded Ware and R1b Bell Beaker.
    The only European G2a tribe that was succesfull later is G2a-L497.
    What is the difference, why were some I-tribes succesfull and G2a not?
    What was the difference between I and G2a?
    Were they really so intertwined and aqual as Maciamo says above?

    As for the Semitic tribes in SW Asia, mentioned above, I would like to point that E-M34 and J1-P58 didn't expand together.
    J1-P58 must have adopted the Semitic language when it came in contact with E-M34.
    But E-M34 expanded 3rd millenium BC with Akkadians and later Assyrians.
    IMO J1-P58 was not part of that.
    J1-P58 expanded into western Yemen, +/- 2200 BC, where it brought irrigated agriculture.
    From there it expanded +/- 1000 BC into Ethiopia for the myrhe and frankincense trade.
    They domesticated the camel and controlled trade through the Arabian desert.

  5. #5
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    As for Sardinia, it appears to have been colonised from the Iberia peninsula via the Balearic Island, following the west to east currents in this part of the Mediterranean. If the winds were the same in the Neolithic as they are today it would have been impossible to sail directly from Italy to Sardinia, except perhaps from Liguria via Corsica (but Neolithic farmers didn't have maps or compasses and Liguria wasn't the naval hub it later became under the auspices of the Genoan Republic).
    Maciamo, do you have some more details or some links to your sources?

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,588
    Points
    297,997
    Level
    100
    Points: 297,997, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    We have a sample from Barcin (an Anatolian Neolithic context) that is almost indistinguishable from LBK. If some of these amateur bloggers are to be believed, that sample has just about the same amount of WHG as LBK. I'm content to wait until we get some more samples from the ancient Near East, Greece and the southern Balkans to determine how much admixture took place in early Neolithic Europe.

    As to the I2a lineages, how much of the current I2a in Europe is descended from the I2a found in Neolithic sites versus so called "Slavic" I2a, as just one example? If most of it or a large percentage of it is descended from a population that was in far northern or far eastern Europe in the forest zone, for instance, and was never Neolithicized, but was instead caught up in the Indo-European expansion, then should they be included in any analysis of the relative survival of I2a versus G2a Neolithic lineages? Wouldn't we be comparing apples to oranges? Also, wouldn't we need actual projections of population numbers for these lineages in modern populations, not percentages of the yDna of certain countries to determine "survival" of a lineage?

    Then, how do we determine which G2a lineages were "Neolithic" versus those which came later?

    Until we have detailed subclade analysis of I2a and G2a with some way of assigning these subclades to "cultures", I don't see how we can reach reliable conclusions.

    Plus, at the end of the day, the male samples found in Neolithic contexts were autosomally very similar early Neolithic farmers, so what does it matter if some of their y lineages came from the Near East and some were absorbed in Europe? Maybe Bicicleur is correct and some I2a was absorbed at the Danube Gorges, but if that happened, Barcin tells us it accounted for a few percent autsomally at most. Then it looks like there was minimal mixing for a very long time. Eventually, some more I2a and I1 were absorbed as the farmers spread further. There was probably some founder effect. I don't think we have any evidence for anything else.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes Slavic I2a may never have been in contact with European neolithic G2a
    But what about the appearance of I2a2 in Vucedol next to R1b? Vucedol originated in the Pannonian Plain, on the right bank of the Danube. This was not a remote area far away from G2a farmers.
    Still I2a2 was not found in neolithic Hungary, the oldest I2a2 was found in early megalithic La Mina, Soria, Spain. So were did the Vucedol I2a2 come from? And what had they to offer Vucedol R1b that G2a didn't have?
    Another prominent example is I1. I1 is found in neolithic Hungary and later in the Nordic neolithic. It looks like they were part of LBK and later in TRB. So they were no HG in a remote area, they had been in contact with neolithic G2a for a long time (some 3000 years before their expansion). Why did they expand 4.7 ka and G2a not?

    I'd like to know more about the Barcin sample.

  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,588
    Points
    297,997
    Level
    100
    Points: 297,997, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Yes Slavic I2a may never have been in contact with European neolithic G2a
    But what about the appearance of I2a2 in Vucedol next to R1b? Vucedol originated in the Pannonian Plain, on the right bank of the Danube. This was not a remote area far away from G2a farmers.
    Still I2a2 was not found in neolithic Hungary, the oldest I2a2 was found in early megalithic La Mina, Soria, Spain. So were did the Vucedol I2a2 come from? And what had they to offer Vucedol R1b that G2a didn't have?
    Another prominent example is I1. I1 is found in neolithic Hungary and later in the Nordic neolithic. It looks like they were part of LBK and later in TRB. So they were no HG in a remote area, they had been in contact with neolithic G2a for a long time (some 3000 years before their expansion). Why did they expand 4.7 ka and G2a not?

    I'd like to know more about the Barcin sample.
    My point is that reasonable conclusions can't be drawn without good subclade resolution. Didn't one of the Allentoft steppe samples turn out to be I2a2? Is the subclade of that sample the same as the one from Vucedol? If it is, or a related subclade, could the Vucedol one have come from the steppe with R1b as an early intrusion?

    As to the I2a2 found in Neolithic sites in Spain, is there enough resolution to tell whether that particular lineage has living descendents? If it does, how many actual European men does it represent, especially compared to "Slavic" or "steppe" I2a2?

    For that matter, don't you think it would be important to determine population figures for non-Slavic and non steppe I2a in Europe before we talk about relative survival rates compared to Neolithic G2a for all of Europe? Also, let's just look at Spain, for example. How much native I2a survived the onslaught of R1b compared to G2a? How about in France?

    I'm not sure that, other than I-M26, much of the I2a in modern Europe derives from lineages that had anything to do with G2a. Even if they did, it's an analogous situation to R1b. There are massive founder effects where one clade went south to Italy, one went to Spain, one wound up in Britain etc. I may be wrong, but I have a feeling we may find a a higher percentage of E-V13 in Greek Neolithic sites than we've found so far. Then G2a was the majority, from what we know so far, in Cardial and in LBK. Why? I don't know, maybe the E-V13 mostly stayed put and the G2a went forward. Maybe when the Neolithic spread west and north, G2a stayed put and the I2a was in the vanguard of the outgoing wave. I don't know what happened; hopefully, we'll see what the story is with more samples and better resolution.

    As for the Barcin sample, I certainly didn't run the algorithms on the snps. That was done by others. The results were posted on anthrogenica and eurogenes. Not that I think any grand theory should be based on just one sample. That's why I said I'm content to wait for the Near Eastern, and Greek and southern Balkan samples that are supposedly in the pipeline.
    Last edited by Angela; 19-07-15 at 22:24.

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I2a2 :

    La mina CTS616 - no further resolution
    Vucedol M223 - no further resolution but subsequent Vatya is S18331 (Z2057 - L1229 branch)
    Yamnaya Ulan IV is S12195, L701-L699 branch, not the same branch as Vatya - the age of the Yamnaya sample is not well-known, somewhere between 4.85 and 4.15 ka

    As for E-V13, TMRCA estimated is only 4400 year, to young for neolithic Europe
    The sample found in cardial Catalunia 7 ka was classified E-V13 based on STR analyses. So I don't think it was E-V13 but something ancestral to E-V13.

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Interesting idea for uniform y-dna is the sexually obsessed shamans - smiths as early tribal leaders :)
    From wiki on Vucedol culture:
    "The community chief was the shaman-smith, possessing the arcane knowledge of avoiding poisonous arsenic gas which is connected to the technology of coppersmithing as well as understanding the year cycle. Still, the whole life of shaman-smith could not pass without biological consequences: slow loss of body movement coordination, and at the same time, stronger sexual potency. "That is why", according to Aleksandar Durman, "all eneolithic, or later gods of metallurgy are identified with fertility, and also why all gods in almost all early cultures - limp".[5]"

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Thanks Maciamo.
    Interesting summary.
    What You think about possible pairing of E-V13 and J2 at last In Balkan as a second Neolithic wave?
    Don't know about E-V13 I even assume it might be "mesolithic" but J2 is definitely a second, predominantly late Neolithic/Bronze Age wave.


    Looking how I2 and G2a are partners virtually in every Neolithic culture. Someone might ask, what if I evolved in Southeast (northern fertile crescent) Anatolia from IJ arriving from Iran. And what if those local I in Anatllia merged with G2a and those 'I' (together with some 'J' I suspect) are the ~30-40% UHG ancestors of the early farmers? In other words the 'I' among the early farmers might be of "different" origin than the 'I' among early mesolithic Europeans.


    Either this. Or as Maciamo said, the I2 were incooperated into the farming communities very early on the Balkans, looking at the diversity and frequency of 'I' in the Balkans it does make allot of sense.

  12. #12
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Don't know about E-V13 I even assume it might be "mesolithic" but J2 is definitely a second, predominantly late Neolithic/Bronze Age wave.
    No, J2 has been found in 7000 years old Neolitich remains in the Central Europe (Hungary, Czech Rep, Slovakia,...)

  13. #13
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,588
    Points
    297,997
    Level
    100
    Points: 297,997, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Interesting idea for uniform y-dna is the sexually obsessed shamans - smiths as early tribal leaders :)
    From wiki on Vucedol culture:
    "The community chief was the shaman-smith, possessing the arcane knowledge of avoiding poisonous arsenic gas which is connected to the technology of coppersmithing as well as understanding the year cycle. Still, the whole life of shaman-smith could not pass without biological consequences: slow loss of body movement coordination, and at the same time, stronger sexual potency. "That is why", according to Aleksandar Durman, "all eneolithic, or later gods of metallurgy are identified with fertility, and also why all gods in almost all early cultures - limp".[5]"
    Surely not as bad as the Ephors in "The 300" surely? Doddering, diseased old men slobbering over nubile young girls? That is seriously disturbing, Arvistro. I think it's time to go outside, no matter how hot it is. I feel the need for fresh air. :)

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    No, J2 has been found in 7000 years old Neolitich remains in the Central Europe (Hungary, Czech Rep, Slovakia,...)
    Please read my post carefully. I thought after bolding the important part it should be obvious .



    The absence of J2 in viertually 95% of Neolithic samples speaks for a later distribution. Some J2 reached Europe early, especially East Europe seems to be the case. But the main wave came later.

    I would love to see the autosomal DNA of those J2 individuals. We also have ~7000 year old neolithic yDNA 'T' sample which autosomally looks more like a mix of Yamna and Neolithic farmer. I assume those T and J2 came "together".

    I consider J2 as T to be an eastern agricultural "herder" haplogroup which came mostly with the "West Asian" autosomal signature.

  15. #15
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Please read my post carefully. I thought after bolding the important part it should be obvious .



    The absence of J2 in viertually 95% of Neolithic samples speaks for a later distribution. Some J2 reached Europe early, especially East Europe seems to be the case. But the main wave came later.
    95% of Neolitich samples come from few countries: Sweden, Germany, Spain and maybe Russia. There is a huge blank area in Europe which still needs to be studied.

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    95% of Neolitich samples come from few countries: Sweden, Germany, Spain and maybe Russia. There is a huge blank area in Europe which still needs to be studied.
    Germany, Italy, Spain, Scandianvia, Thrace, Britain, Hungary, Poland so far (Russia is coming). Thats a large territory imo especially since it compromises all major parts of Europe, expect East Europe.

    Well upcoming samples will certanly tell us more. And I hope for autosomal DNA too.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have always seen G2a and T1a together

    Central germany - early neolithic.
    Tyrol and western austrian mountain range.
    Julian mountains with Friuli and Slovenia.
    Ibiza islands , where we have 18% and 13% of these markers.
    Western Sicily.
    Central Italian mountains, umbria, marche areas.
    Auvergne and central french mountain range.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post

    Looking how I2 and G2a are partners virtually in every Neolithic culture. Someone might ask, what if I evolved in Southeast (northern fertile crescent) Anatolia from IJ arriving from Iran. And what if those local I in Anatllia merged with G2a and those 'I' (together with some 'J' I suspect) are the ~30-40% UHG ancestors of the early farmers? In other words the 'I' among the early farmers might be of "different" origin than the 'I' among early mesolithic Europeans.


    Either this. Or as Maciamo said, the I2 were incooperated into the farming communities very early on the Balkans, looking at the diversity and frequency of 'I' in the Balkans it does make allot of sense.
    Some facts :

    I is Gravettian Europe which started 33 ka. It only existed in Europe and spread from east to west.
    33 ka is about the age of the I1-I2 split.
    TMRCA for I2, I estimate it 27 ka.

    Oldest known neolithic I samples are I2a1a-CTS595 and I2a1-P37.2 , ancestral to I-M26.
    I2a1 and I2a1a both split +/- 24 ka.

    But AJV 58 - Ajvide PWC Swedish HG 4.8-4 ka was also I2a1a-CTS595 , Motala 6 was I2a1 and Motala 9 was L672, i.e. futher down I2a1a under I-M26 branch.

    Furthermore Belbasi-Belbidi-Carain caves were deserted during LGM

    It is dificult to find a specific Anatolian neolithic branch of I.

  19. #19
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Germany, Italy, Spain, Scandianvia, Thrace, Britain, Hungary, Poland so far (Russia is coming). Thats a large territory imo especially since it compromises all major parts of Europe, expect East Europe.

    Well upcoming samples will certanly tell us more. And I hope for autosomal DNA too.
    No strictly speaking Neolitich samples (no copper age or similar) have been found only in Hungary, Germany, France, Sweden and maybe Spain. Quite a lot of samples from Hungary turned out as J2 and E-M78. E-V13 appeared much later.

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Surely not as bad as the Ephors in "The 300" surely? Doddering, diseased old men slobbering over nubile young girls? That is seriously disturbing, Arvistro. I think it's time to go outside, no matter how hot it is. I feel the need for fresh air. :)
    Actually smiths is an argument for y-dna drifts. Their skills were super needed plus they had enhanced sexual appetite.
    If village smith wants your daughter's... hand would you object?

    In military leaders can change but smiths pass their knowledge to son(s).

    Actually it is a good question. Did early IEs have hereditary monarchy?

  21. #21
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for the Barcin sample, I certainly didn't run the algorithms on the snps. That was done by others. The results were posted on anthrogenica and eurogenes. Not that I think any grand theory should be based on just one sample. That's why I said I'm content to wait for the Near Eastern, and Greek and southern Balkan samples that are supposedly in the pipeline.
    I checked. K8 : Barcin has just 2 components 81.3 % ENF and 18.7 % WHG.
    We know I HG were WHG.
    But we don't know about neolithic J2, they may have been WHG too, while both descend from IJ
    Maybe ENF is neolithic G2

    we don't know

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I checked. K8 : Barcin has just 2 components 81.3 % ENF and 18.7 % WHG.
    We know I HG were WHG.
    But we don't know about neolithic J2, they may have been WHG too, while both descend from IJ
    Maybe ENF is neolithic G2

    we don't know
    Which calculator is that K8? One where Lithuanians have ~35% ENF or ~2%? Just to put in perspective.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    445


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Most of this stuff is borderline schizophrenic speculation
    I think your comment is a bit inappropriate. Of course is a speculation but its an educated one based on present data available about y dna. My only concern is that there is not enough data for the whole regions. Regions like Anatolia or Levant are vast and there is need for a lot more data to draw a more accurate conclusion. Anatolia to my point of view is a collection of ancient peoples regardless the fact that today they live under the state of Turkey.
    If some haplogroups were more successful than others has a lot to do with their inherited immunity against illnesses. The haplogroup R appears to be resistible. Balkan populations were hit by plague more than two times in the last 1500 years but I dont know any plague in North with Balkan or Italian devastation results.

  24. #24
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,712
    Points
    704,021
    Level
    100
    Points: 704,021, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 24.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Don't know about E-V13 I even assume it might be "mesolithic" but J2 is definitely a second, predominantly late Neolithic/Bronze Age wave.
    That's also the way I see it.

    Looking how I2 and G2a are partners virtually in every Neolithic culture. Someone might ask, what if I evolved in Southeast (northern fertile crescent) Anatolia from IJ arriving from Iran. And what if those local I in Anatllia merged with G2a and those 'I' (together with some 'J' I suspect) are the ~30-40% UHG ancestors of the early farmers? In other words the 'I' among the early farmers might be of "different" origin than the 'I' among early mesolithic Europeans.

    Either this. Or as Maciamo said, the I2 were incooperated into the farming communities very early on the Balkans, looking at the diversity and frequency of 'I' in the Balkans it does make allot of sense.
    The high frequency of I2a in Kurdistan also made me wonder if it wasn't the source of Neolithic European I2a. However the only kinds of I2a I have seen in Anatolia are all the "Dinaric" I2a1b2 (L621) variety, and typically the I2a1b2a1 (CTS5966) subclade, which is too young to be Neolithic.

    Anyway there are enough Mesolithic I2a, including I2a1a, to know that these haplogroups really were in Europe, even as far north as Scandinavia, before the Neolithic.

  25. #25
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,712
    Points
    704,021
    Level
    100
    Points: 704,021, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 24.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    What strikes me even more, the G2a people seem to have had much more trouble to survive the invasions of R1a and R1b and of later Bronze and Iron age invasions.
    I2a2 was allready an equal partner with R1b in arsenic bronze Vucedol culture, 2800 BC. These same I2a2 where present in the subsequent Vatya culture with hillforts and probably horses.
    The most succesfull coöperation was I1 with R1a Corded Ware and R1b Bell Beaker.
    The only European G2a tribe that was succesfull later is G2a-L497.
    What is the difference, why were some I-tribes succesfull and G2a not?
    What was the difference between I and G2a?
    Were they really so intertwined and aqual as Maciamo says above?
    I have said for many years now that G2a3b1 (P303, of which L497 is descended) was the branch of Balkanic Neolithic farmers that moved into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (probably bringing with them copper working) and were assimilated by the indigenous R1b tribes, thus becoming an Indo-European haplogroup. G2a3b1 subsequently spread back across the whole of Europe together with R1b, replacing many Neolithic G2a lineages. This is why G2a3b1 is the dominant form of G2a in Europe today, especially in northern Europe, where Neolithic farmers never ventured in large numbers but Indo-Europeans did.

    It is telling that pockets of G2a in mountainous parts of southern Europe (including Sardinia and the Apennines in Italy) have much less G2a3b1 and much more of Neolithic subclades like G2a2a2 (L91) or G2a3a (M406).


    As for the Semitic tribes in SW Asia, mentioned above, I would like to point that E-M34 and J1-P58 didn't expand together.
    J1-P58 must have adopted the Semitic language when it came in contact with E-M34.
    But E-M34 expanded 3rd millenium BC with Akkadians and later Assyrians.
    IMO J1-P58 was not part of that.
    J1-P58 expanded into western Yemen, +/- 2200 BC, where it brought irrigated agriculture.
    From there it expanded +/- 1000 BC into Ethiopia for the myrhe and frankincense trade.
    They domesticated the camel and controlled trade through the Arabian desert.
    I didn't mean that E-M34 and J1 expanded together, but rather that J1-P58 benefited from cultural or technological elements brought by E-M34 people, and that this is what permitted J1-P58 to colonize the Arabian peninsula and be a major player in the diffusion of Semitic languages.

    The first wave would have been E-M34 spreading quickly across the Middle East and spawning early Semitic languages like Akkadian. The second wave would be J1-P58 + E-M34 expanding from the southern Levant to Saudi Arabia and Yemen. The third wave was the 7th-century Muslim expansion that spread Arabic language around the Middle East and North Africa and that was mostly conducted by J1-P58 men and only a small minority of E-M34 men.

    The comparison I wanted to make between these two haplogroups was the same as with R1b and R1a. IMO, Proto-Indo-European language and bronze working originated with R1b1b2 people. Through contact with their R1a neighbours, R1a people acquired both R1b language and technology and spread it to new regions. A similar scenario happened with Semitic languages, which were spread in part by a relatively pure E-M34 branch at first, but later mostly by assimilated J1-P58 people. For example the Maghreb has only about 3% of E-M34 but about 20% of J1. This is just to show how a language can be adopted by a haplogroup and later diffused by mostly that haplogroup rather than by the original haplogroup that created the language.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •