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Thread: I1a bifurcating effect on the Lithuanian Y-N3 and mt-U5b prior to R1a1.

  1. #1
    ReichsRitter Sonnenburg's Avatar
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    I1a bifurcating effect on the Lithuanian Y-N3 and mt-U5b prior to R1a1.

    Bifurcation occurs when a small smooth change made to the parameter values (the bifurcation parameters) of a system causes a sudden 'qualitative' change in its behavior.
    Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region
    T. Lappalainen1, V. Laitinen2, E. Salmela1,3, P. Andersen4, K. Huoponen2, M.-L. Savontaus2 and P.Lahermo1
    1Finnish Genome Center, Institute for Molecular Medicine Finland.

    1. "I1a has been involved in bifurcating migrationsboth via Sweden and the Baltic states, and that the presenceof the haplogroup in Finland and Karelia is not merely dueto Swedish influence. The low frequency of I1a among theBaltic populations may be due to later effects of genetic driftor replacement. "
    2. "Another explanationfor the high frequencies would be migration from South-ern to Northern Europe, possibly via the Atlantic and Balticcoasts, but the archaeological evidence for this is limited. Thethird alternative scenario would be initially high H1 and U5bfrequencies in the entirety of Europe that were partly replacedby other haplogroups in Central Europe due to subsequent migrations."

    It would explain percentage of Y-N3 in Lithuanian population versus Y-R1a and also mtDna - U5b presence in Lithuania at 3.1 % compared to Russia 0.0%.[
    From Finnila ̈ et al. (2001)From Malyarchuk & Derenko (2001) and Loogva ̈li et al. (2004) ].
    Was I1a influence, as not Indo-Euro., important in Lithuanian language formation, or that was already 'done' by N3 also non Indo-Euro.?

  2. #2
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
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    I did not understand this post in itself and even less so the question or how this relates to language.

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    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I did not understand this post in itself and even less so the question or how this relates to language.
    He either has a problem forming ideas or expressing them in understandable form to others. The worse is that he gets annoyed and rude to people who don't understand him.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    ReichsRitter Sonnenburg's Avatar
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    Hello,
    it's about Lithuanian language being 'assembled' with big help from non-Indoeuropean pre-Suomi Language. Is that so hard? What are you guys need to start a discussion? It's just a discussion when you, obviously, know more... So what could be the issue to continue?
    For being rude..? Did you read how some of you ( seasoned members with titles) responded to my questions?
    I'm not rude - I'm just 'German', isn't this how the saying goes?
    The meaning is - I am straight forward. Don't get offended.

  5. #5
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenburg View Post
    Hello,
    it's about Lithuanian language being 'assembled' with big help from non-Indoeuropean pre-Suomi Language.
    Unfortunately there is no good study that I know about possible substrate(s) to Baltic languages. Only thing that is well settled and analyzed is Latvian having Livonian substrate. Another is that we have special locative functions in Old Lithuanian, also Latvian thought to be of Finnic source.

    About pre-FU, pre-IE substrate to Latvian/Baltic, the only word I came up mentioned in some linguistic sources was "sala" for island. Although even there several IE etimologies are proposed:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sala#Etymology_1_2

    So, can't help you there. If you find something would be interesting to read more.

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    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
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    Here is the link to the original study in case anyone wants it: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full

    It's a bit old (2008) and not exactly earth-shattering in its conclusions. Western Finns have higher I1 frequency but lower I1 diversity than Eastern Finns, suggesting that Western Finns have a greater proportion of I1 that came over from Sweden, while Eastern Finns have a bit that drifted in from the Baltic area. Meanwhile, the Baltic itself has had most of its I1 drift away over time, assuming that the I1 there was once frequent. As I understand it, hobbyist data and other studies have confirmed these patterns since this study was published.

  7. #7
    ReichsRitter Sonnenburg's Avatar
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    Thank you. Interesting information about Eastern Finland's I1 Y-DNA.

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    It's why we cannot everytime associate Y-I1 to Germanics expansions (after the first incorporation of some Y-I1 into germanics world and language, surely around Denmark) -
    some eastern branches of Y-I1 (East Finland, North Russia) were there before arrival of Germanics Y-I1 subclades. Subclades analysis are very important.
    the question here was, if I understood well, were there in baltic countries, a substrata chiefly formed of Y-I1 primitive population, later overrun by other ethnies strong for Y-R1a or Y-N3 - (I believed it was Y-N1??? I 've to read more) - other question: when first appeared Y-N in Baltic lands? Before of after current Y-R1a ? (other old Y-R1a were there, but not of I-Ean culture)

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    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It's why we cannot everytime associate Y-I1 to Germanics expansions (after the first incorporation of some Y-I1 into germanics world and language, surely around Denmark) -
    some eastern branches of Y-I1 (East Finland, North Russia) were there before arrival of Germanics Y-I1 subclades. Subclades analysis are very important.
    the question here was, if I understood well, were there in baltic countries, a substrata chiefly formed of Y-I1 primitive population, later overrun by other ethnies strong for Y-R1a or Y-N3 - (I believed it was Y-N1??? I 've to read more) - other question: when first appeared Y-N in Baltic lands? Before of after current Y-R1a ? (other old Y-R1a were there, but not of I-Ean culture)
    Your thinking is pretty close to mine on the topic now, except that I would emphasize that even though the modern distribution of I1 is not entirely due to Germanic migrations, it's still probably a pretty solid majority that is. I wish I had more answers beyond that... still plenty left to study.

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