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Thread: Over 50 ancient R1a samples in the context of archaeological cultures

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Over 50 ancient R1a samples in the context of archaeological cultures

    By now there are at least 53 Ancient samples with R1a haplogroup (+ 1 Medieval R1a from Usedom, marked as "Med" below). I've made a map showing their locations in the context of archaeological cultures (data from Ancestral Journeys website was of great help):

    http://s24.postimg.org/jakvc9379/Ancient_R1a_C.png



    Red Deer Island cemetery - http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/24870
    CW or Corded - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
    BattleAxe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded...e#Nomenclature
    Urnfield - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
    Zhizhitskaya* - http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p.../3551584/?lng=
    Iron Age* - http://s23.postimg.org/4ztqxfocr/Anaszkino_1.png and http://s30.postimg.org/7uf1w47gx/Anashkino_2.png
    Andronovo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture and http://www.csen.org/BAR%20Book/04%20...Bronze.Int.pdf
    Sintashta - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
    Karasuk - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasuk_culture
    Pazyryk - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture
    Xiaohe mummies - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lop_Nu...he_Burial_Site , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusun
    Mezhovskaya - http://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anci...ei_2002_496_pp
    Tagar - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture
    Tachtyk (Tashtyk) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashtyk_culture
    Altai Scythian - http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...8700-250_BC%29
    Tanais kurgan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais#History
    Xiongnu - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu
    Medieval (Usedom) - http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/se...ion_Freder.pdf

    *Note: Iron Age refers to another R1a sample from the same region where Zhizhitskaya. Iron Age sample was from Anashkino:

    Check pages 183 - 184:

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    By now there are at least 53 Ancient samples with R1a haplogroup (+ 1 Medieval R1a from Usedom, marked as "Med" below). I've made a map showing their locations in the context of archaeological cultures (data from Ancestral Journeys website was of great help):

    http://s24.postimg.org/jakvc9379/Ancient_R1a_C.png



    Red Deer Island cemetery - http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/24870
    CW or Corded - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
    BattleAxe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded...e#Nomenclature
    Urnfield - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
    Zhizhitskaya* - http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p.../3551584/?lng=
    Iron Age* - http://s23.postimg.org/4ztqxfocr/Anaszkino_1.png and http://s30.postimg.org/7uf1w47gx/Anashkino_2.png
    Andronovo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture and http://www.csen.org/BAR%20Book/04%20...Bronze.Int.pdf
    Sintashta - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
    Karasuk - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasuk_culture
    Pazyryk - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture
    Xiaohe mummies - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lop_Nu...he_Burial_Site , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusun
    Mezhovskaya - http://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anci...ei_2002_496_pp
    Tagar - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture
    Tachtyk (Tashtyk) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashtyk_culture
    Altai Scythian - http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...8700-250_BC%29
    Tanais kurgan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais#History
    Xiongnu - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu
    Medieval (Usedom) - http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/se...ion_Freder.pdf

    *Note: Iron Age refers to another R1a sample from the same region where Zhizhitskaya. Iron Age sample was from Anashkino:

    Check pages 183 - 184:

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf
    But there are zero R1a in Central Europe in Neolithic times
    Last edited by Sile; 02-08-15 at 12:22.
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    Belarus/Baltics/Karelia probably featured some r1a from Mesolithic to XXI century.

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    But let's remember that R1a from Karelia was not under M198, but a more ancient branch R1a1*.

    Just like that R1b from Neolithic Iberia was V88, the same branch which is now common in Africa.

    Here are modern matches for R1a from Tanais kurgan:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...Kurgan-has-R1a

    I've created his profile on Ysearch and searched for a matches, the closest 5 at the distance of 1 were:
    Surikov (Russia) 13 25 16 11 11 11 10 13 11 30 15 14 20 12 16 11 23
    Anokhin (Russia) 13 25 15 11 11 11 10 13 11 30 15 14 20 13 15 11 23
    TkáÄ(sic!) (Slovakia) 13 25 16 11 11 11 13 30 15 14 20 13 16 11 23
    Webber (Unknown, probably England) 14 24 15 11 11 11 12 11 10 13 11 30 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 19 31 12 15 15 16 11 10 19 21 15
    Constantinov (Russia) 13 25 16 11 11 11 12 10 13 11 30 15 9 10 11 14 19 32 12 13 15 19 21 11 15 14 24
    And matches for Corded Ware R1a from Eulau in Geemany:

    Best of 2008: Corded Ware DNA from German:

    One of the biggest hits of the year for this blogger was the discovery of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a in three Corded Ware skeletons from a burial site in Eulau, eastern Germany. It's an important result, because it links a major Bronze Age archeological complex with one of the most dominant Y-chromosome haplogroups in Europe today.

    All three individuals were confirmed to be paternally related via their shared Y-STR haplotype. Nevertheless, the outcome appears far from a random coincidence. Consider that in Europe today R1a shows highest frequencies in Poland and Western Russia, which are both located in former Corded Ware territory, and where the Eulau R1a haplotype appears to have its closest modern matches. Moreover, the Corded Ware culture is often classified as an Indo-European culture by archeologists and linguists, while at the same time R1a has been posited as a marker of the early Indo-Europeans by some geneticists. Needless to say, I'm expecting R1a to be a common, and perhaps dominant marker among Corded Ware samples when more of them make it to the lab.

    The consensus haplotype of the three individuals (based on most complete profile) gave two exact matches in an European population sample of 11,213 haplotypes in a set of 100 populations (as of July 2008, Release ‘‘23’’ from 2008–01-15): one individual from Poland (1/939 from Gdansk) and one from Russia (1/48 from Tambov).

    The Y haplotype was predicted using the Web-based program Haplotype Predictor (9). The three individuals of grave 99 belong to haplotype R1a, with a probability of 100% based on the Y-STR profile of individual 3 (10). To confirm haplogroup status, we further amplified an 85-bp fragment covering the Y-SNP marker SRY10831.2 characteristic for R1a (11). Primer sequences are given in Table S6. Sequences and sequenced clones from independent extract of all three individuals show the specific GA transition identifying R1a (Fig. S5).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    But there are zero R1a in Central Europe in Neolithic times
    Zhizhitskaya was a culture contemporary with Corded Ware (it was surrounded by Corded Ware cultures from all sides):

    They practiced agriculture, and they were also lake fishermen. Both N1c and R1a were found in that culture:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post3622337

    N1c1 was found in Zhizhitskaya culture in Smolensk Russia on the eastern border of Belarus dated to 4,500 years.

    The Zhizhitskaya archaeological culture was surrounded by Corded-Ware culture. The differences between the Zhizhitskaya and Corded-Ware is the material culture of the former being built on tombs in the lake near water. Furthermore, people of Zhizhitskaya had agricultural practices similar to those of central Europe. Make a mental note N1c1 in Zhizhitskaya is 4,500 years old.

    The Comb Ceramic culture which included the Narva culture encompassed territories of north-eastern Europe. There is some debate about the language of inhabitants of the Narva culture. Some scholars suggest that inhabitants were paleo-European speakers based on evidence of toponyms and hydronyms. The Comb Ceramic culture was replaced by Corded-ware horizon associated with IE family of languages by scholars. Proto-Finnic speakers migrated to Baltic shore around 3,000 from Volga-Ural direction as per Finnish scholars.

    Who could spread N1c1 in the Baltic region in the light of this information? All three - paleo-Europeans, Indo-Europeans and proto-Finnic could be responsible for spreading N1c1 into the Baltic region. It was certainly not proto-Finnic speakers in western Russia, Smolensk 4,500 years ago given linguistic evidence. From Smolensk Russia, N1c1 could travel along Daugava/western Dvina River into northern Belarus, Latvia and Lithuania.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...hlight=RISE493

    There is indeed something to that effect in another paper in the same volume as the DNA results. It says (pp. 67-68):

    A new cultural tradition was formed on the boundary of 4–3 mill. cal. BC, which was named Zhizhitskaya culture of pile dwellings. It was formed on the basis of usviatskaya middle Neolithic culture, which can explain finds of vessels attributed to these both cultures in one horizon. It was also on the boundary of 4–3 mill. cal. BC when bearers of Balkan agricultural traditions appeared in Sennitsky and Zhizhitsky archaeological microregions. A particular cultural complex was formed here under their influence.
    Russian archaeologists traditionally label as Neolithic all cultures with pottery (including hunter-gatherers with pottery), so it was not clear to me before that Zhizhitskaya people were actually practising agriculture. I thought they were lake fishermen.
    It is possible that Zhizhitskaya were originally N1c and R1a entered that population from neighbouring Corded Ware.

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    Was not there one even older R1a from that Belorussian study?

    Also I am not sure if that was N1c1 or N1c in that study. In materials it is marked N1c, it is most likely N1c1 (just they did not check?) but I think it was never explicitly stated so.

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    Here info on that study, featuring 6000 years old R1a:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02...ussia.html?m=1

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    Yes, I know this Russian study, unfortunately they don't say what subclade of R1a it was.

    Karelian hunter had M459*, a side branch of M459 (while its main branch evolved into M198).

    Was not there one even older R1a from that Belorussian study?
    You are right, one was Mesolithic - apart from those Zhizhitskaya ones. I will update the map later.

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    The same river Serteya had R1a 6000 years ago and R1a 4500 years ago.
    It might be one was local, other was Corded alternatively both could be local.

    Edit: N1c was also found there 4500 years ago. Interesting. Must read on Serteya.

    One would expect N1c to be intrusive based on data, but it could well be both were intrusive :)

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    This paper also has info on Serteya and Naumovo, IIRC:

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

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    R1a in NE Europe arrived from Syberia at some point. Probably.
    Question is when. Together with pottery or before?
    We only know that Mesolithic NE Europe has given only R1a so far (2/2).

    Another question is when and how R1a the Corded Ware daddy, ancestor of 99% modern ones, arrived to the North of Black Sea. We only know that Yamna samples were R1b so far.

    Third question is when N1c arrived to these lands. According to probability theory there is a better chance he arrived after R1a.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is possible that all of R (including both R1a, R1b and R2) ultimately came from these 20,000 years old Siberian ice age refugia:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463666



    People from these Siberian refugia also migrated to the Americas (being up to 38% of all ancestors of Native Americans):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463644

    I wonder if hg Q also existed in those Siberian refugia, or was it picked up later from Mongoloids? Because most of Native American ancestry is East Asian rather than Siberian (only up to 38% is Siberian), but they have mostly Q when it comes to Y-DNA.

    Of course Q is closely related to R (both descend from common ancestor haplogroup P).

    Today the most common haplogroup among Mongoloids is O, which evolved from NO (just like N did):



    Autosomal mutation which defines Mongoloid physical traits, is EDAR 370A, which evolved perhaps +/- 30,000 years ago (?):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463645

    Mongoloids are defined by mutation EDAR 370A, which evolved perhaps some 30,000 years ago:

    93% of all Han Chinese have it, and this mutation is believed to be responsible for many of typical East Asian features:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

    (...) is thought to be responsible for a number of differences between these populations, including the thicker hair, more numerous sweat glands, smaller breasts, and dentition characteristic of East Asians.[5] (...) The 370A mutation arose in humans approximately 30,000 years ago, and now is found in 93% of Han Chinese and in the majority of people in nearby Asian populations. (...)
    Interestingly, many of Scandinavian hunter-gatherers had this Mongoloid mutation, implying a prehistoric gene flow from East Asia:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477

    (...) The derived allele [370A] in the Motala samples lies on the same haplotype as in modern East Asians (Extended Data Figure 4) implying a shared origin. The statistic f4 (Yoruba, Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, Han, Onge Andaman Islanders) is significantly negative (Z=-3.9) implying gene flow between the ancestors of Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and Han so this shared haplotype is likely the result of ancient gene flow between groups ancestral to these two populations. (...)
    If you find any Mongoloid features in Swedes or Poles, they are likely from those prehistoric Motala-like (SHG) hunters:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2012...netically.html

    And not from Medieval Mongol invasions of Europe - "No Mongolian admixture in Poland":

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013...in-poland.html
    But N1c carriers in prehistoric Europe (such as those 4500 years old from Belarus) rather did not have EDAR 370A.

    Has that N1c sample from Zhizhitskaya culture been tested for "Mongoloid admixture" ???

    BTW - those Motala hunter-gatherers belonged to I2 haplogroup, and some of them still had that admixture.

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    We only know that Yamna samples were R1b so far.
    And that's strange.

    In Yamna we find R1b (so far), in Corded & Andronovo-Sintashta R1a, but autosomally there was large overlap between all of them.

    It's a similar mysterious case like with these Siberian refugia of Mal'ta and Afontova Gora. Only R was found there, but Q could also be there, because up to 38% of Native American ancestry is from those refugia, and Native Americans are mostly Q, which is closely related to R. Perhaps in both cases there were some founder effects of Y-DNA lineages migrating in various directions.

    As for that EDAR Mongoloid mutation - it arose 30,000 years ago, but it probably took a long time before it spread to modern frequency of 93% among Han Chinese. 30,000 years ago, haplogroups O and N were probably still at their ancestral NO stage.

    So it is possible that EDAR 370A arose before NO split into N and O, but it was initially present only at low frequencies, and was later under strong positive selective pressure only in the East (reaching the present-day peak frequency of 93% among Han Chinese). This would explain, why most of N1c in Europe has no Mongoloid features, while most of N in North-East Asia has them.

    Compare it to lactase persistence mutations, which arouse long time ago, but were increasing in frequency over long time periods.

    As for EDAR 370A among prehistoric SHGs - it probably came with the northernmost gene flow possible: along the Arctic Ocean.

    That EDAR 370A was probably under strong positive selection only among peoples who lived in extremely cold (!) climate.

    It is obvious just by looking at them, that Mongoloids are much more cold-adapted people than Caucasoids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    R1a in NE Europe arrived from Syberia at some point. Probably.
    Question is when. Together with pottery or before?
    We only know that Mesolithic NE Europe has given only R1a so far (2/2).

    Another question is when and how R1a the Corded Ware daddy, ancestor of 99% modern ones, arrived to the North of Black Sea. We only know that Yamna samples were R1b so far.

    Third question is when N1c arrived to these lands. According to probability theory there is a better chance he arrived after R1a.
    pottery came from China through Siberia into Europe, probably with N1c
    IMO R1a came from Trancaucasia and crossed the Caucasus maybe 11 ka, after the youngest dryas
    this has been discussed before :
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l-et-al-(2014)
    and
    http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2014/03/...gins-of-y.html

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Bicicleur do you know which are the oldest anthropologically "Mongoloid" skeletons found so far? IMO ancestors of East Asians evolved in northern extremities of Asia, and only later expanded southward, into what is now China, Mongolia, Koreas, Japan and farther south, partially replacing & partially mixing with previous inhabitants (this substrate is especially evident in South-East Asians).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It is possible that all of R (including both R1a, R1b and R2) ultimately came from these 20,000 years old Siberian ice age refugia:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463666



    People from these Siberian refugia also migrated to the Americas (being up to 38% of all ancestors of Native Americans):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463644

    I wonder if hg Q also existed in those Siberian refugia, or was it picked up later from Mongoloids? Because most of Native American ancestry is East Asian rather than Siberian (only up to 38% is Siberian), but they have mostly Q when it comes to Y-DNA.

    Of course Q is closely related to R (both descend from common ancestor haplogroup P).

    Today the most common haplogroup among Mongoloids is O, which evolved from NO (just like N did):



    Autosomal mutation which defines Mongoloid physical traits, is EDAR 370A, which evolved perhaps +/- 30,000 years ago (?):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post463645



    But N1c carriers in prehistoric Europe (such as those 4500 years old from Belarus) rather did not have EDAR 370A.

    Has that N1c sample from Zhizhitskaya culture been tested for "Mongoloid admixture" ???

    BTW - those Motala hunter-gatherers belonged to I2 haplogroup, and some of them still had that admixture.
    Mal'ta was R* , not R1 or R2
    IMO the origin of Q and R was near the Altaï Mts
    But I don't think 24000 y.o. Mal'ta R* survived, it went extinct.
    Another 17000 y.o. Afantova Gora skeleton was tentatively typed Q1a1 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog..._Ancient_sites ) while Native Americans are Q1a2-derived
    Maybe R1a, R1b and R2 survived LGM near the Hindu Kush :
    http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultu...fgh05-009.html
    http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultu...h02-01enl.html
    http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultu...fgh02-02enl.ht
    from where both R1a and R1b moved west to NW Iran after LGM
    till youngest dryas (12 ka) there was eastern epigravettian in both Trans- and Ciscaucasia (haplogroup I)
    but after youngest dryas they were replaced in Transcaucasia by R1a/R1b
    R1a crossed the Caucasus from transcaucasia somewhere after the youngest dryas
    R1b-V88 was in Anatolia 8 ka from where they left to Africa with cattle
    R1b-M73 & M269 also crossed the Caucasus but later than R1a
    IMO CW R1a ancestors lived on the steppe or in the forests north of the Caucasus

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Bicicleur do you know which are the oldest anthropologically "Mongoloid" skeletons found so far? IMO ancestors of East Asians evolved in northern extremities of Asia, and only later expanded southward, into what is now China, Mongolia, Koreas, Japan and farther south, partially replacing & partially mixing with previous inhabitants (this substrate is especially evident in South-East Asians).
    I don't know.
    I guess it was before LGM.
    There were 2 waves into Siberia : IUP (initial upper paleolithic with blades mad with Levalois technique) which came from Hindu Kush (48 ka) to Altaï (45 ka) and further through Mongolia ,probably both haplo N & O
    and EUP (early upper paleolithic with microblades made from cilindric cores) which arrived in Altaï mountains (38 ka : probably Q & R). This expanded along Yenessei, Angara & Lena rivers (Dyuktai cave).
    Does that make sense for the spread of Mongoloïd types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    pottery came from China through Siberia into Europe, probably with N1c
    IMO R1a came from Trancaucasia and crossed the Caucasus maybe 11 ka, after the youngest dryas
    this has been discussed before :
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l-et-al-(2014)
    and
    http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2014/03/...gins-of-y.html
    So, you suggest N1c was in Europe before 3000 bce and it is the small amount of samples why first N1c was caught 2500 bce?

    Do you think Swiderian culture was already R1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur
    Mal'ta was R*, not R1 or R2
    It is quite possible that R1 did not yet exist 24,000 years ago:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

    Moreover, Mal'ta boy was one individual, and he was R*.

    But his cousin could be R1, his another cousin could be R2, etc. They could be in the same population.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicileur
    which arrived in Altaï mountains (38 ka : probably Q & R).

    Q and R did probably not yet exist 38,000 years ago.

    R arose some 31,400 years ago (33,500-29,300) according to YFull:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

    Q arose some also around the same time as R according to YFull:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q/

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur
    Another 17000 y.o. Afantova Gora skeleton was tentatively typed Q1a1

    This is great news indeed, thanks!

    while Native Americans are Q1a2-derived
    Both Q1a1 and Q1a2 are descended from Q1a, and they could be literally cousins at the beginning.

    Is Q1a M378 ??? - http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-M378/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Bicicleur do you know which are the oldest anthropologically "Mongoloid" skeletons found so far? IMO ancestors of East Asians evolved in northern extremities of Asia, and only later expanded southward, into what is now China, Mongolia, Koreas, Japan and farther south, partially replacing & partially mixing with previous inhabitants (this substrate is especially evident in South-East Asians).
    How about the peking man?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Man
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Ray Banks has some age estimates too, but not for all haplogroups.
    Most of his estimates are older than YFull, e.g. for C age his estimate is 75000 years
    https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/c
    the Ust-Ishim bone was 45000 years old, according to Genetiker he had 2 out of 7 SNP's of K-M2335 http://www.yfull.com/tree/K-M2335/
    So Ust-Ishim was pré-NO. IMO opinion it is likely that NO split into N & O in Altaï Mts 45000 years ago.
    As for Q & R maybe they are younger than 38000 years, but I think older than what YFull says because there are so many known SNP's for Q1b branch
    If Q & R are less than 38000 years old, then P1 arrived in Altaï Mts 38000 years ago and Q and R were born a bit later

    Q in YFull :
    L274 = Q1
    L275 = Q1b
    L472 = Q1a
    F1096 = Q1a1
    L56 = Q1a2

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How about the peking man?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_Man
    the Peking man was probably a homo erectus, who left Africa +/- 1.900.000 years ago

    there were some 40.000 y.o. bones found of a modern human in a cave near Beijing
    his mtDNA is B , Y-DNA is unknown
    no artefacts or tools found - culture unknown

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan_man

    maybe some haplo N who had lost the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, you suggest N1c was in Europe before 3000 bce and it is the small amount of samples why first N1c was caught 2500 bce?

    Do you think Swiderian culture was already R1a?
    pottery existed more than 20.000 years ago near the Yangtze river, China
    13000 years ago it entered eastern Siberia, probably with haplo N
    it spread further west till Europe it crossed Ural some 9000 years ago
    maybe this was not N, but R1a
    the pottery may well have been spread by the women who were with haplo N : note that the Karelian R1a1* HG had mtDNA C1g
    a mesolithic sample near Irkutsk, Siberia also turned out mtDNA C : http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

    first Swiderian was allready in Poland before the youngest dryas, and also there would be a link with Solutrean. That is why I think it is haplo I
    Kunda, Narva and Zedmar seem to be Swiderian-derived, and they all had mt-DNA U5b or U4 : http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml
    I think all people of Swiderian or later derived cultures finally got extinct, most of them replaced by R1a (and maybe also N and other I)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    It is quite possible that R1 did not yet exist 24,000 years ago:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

    Moreover, Mal'ta boy was one individual, and he was R*.

    But his cousin could be R1, his another cousin could be R2, etc. They could be in the same population.


    Q and R did probably not yet exist 38,000 years ago.

    R arose some 31,400 years ago (33,500-29,300) according to YFull:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

    Q arose some also around the same time as R according to YFull:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q/


    This is great news indeed, thanks!



    Both Q1a1 and Q1a2 are descended from Q1a, and they could be literally cousins at the beginning.

    Is Q1a M378 ??? - http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-M378/
    You need to study your fyull dates, N is 10000 years older than R1, the likely conclusion, is that N ( China/mongolia ) and R1a ( BMAC ) met in central asia before heading west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Peking man was probably a homo erectus, who left Africa +/- 1.900.000 years ago

    there were some 40.000 y.o. bones found of a modern human in a cave near Beijing
    his mtDNA is B , Y-DNA is unknown
    no artefacts or tools found - culture unknown

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan_man

    maybe some haplo N who had lost the way
    He asked when first mongoloid features popped up. I'm sure Homo Sapiens mixed with East Asian Homo Erectus (the peking man like people) and created East Asian phenotype.

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