Dutch with mostly Scandinavian DNA

Jana

Junior Member
Messages
1
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Highlands Ranch
Ethnic group
Dutch
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a1a1a
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?
 
Welcome to Eupedia Jana.

I'm not sure about U5b, but U5 is pan European at the moment, and could have been like this for thousands of years. At this time it has the strongest signature in Scandinavia, but it doesn't mean it started there. It just found a very fertile ground there to grow. ;)
mtDNA-U5-map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml
 
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Maybe 23andme(if you tested with them) doesn't have a Dutch reference. Dutch as far as I know are very Scandinavian-like compared to Germans. They're the closest modern relatives to Ancient DNA from Medieval Anglo Saxons of England according to a recent study. So Dutch probably have a lot of decent from early Germanic-speakers who originated around Scandinavia and just south of it.

You should do the Eurogenes K15 test at GEDmatch. There are reference samples from the Netherlands and you'll definitely cluster with them since you're Dutch. U5 is over 25,000 years old and U5b isn't much younger. They're not specific to any modern ethnic group. It is a maternal legacy of Upper Palaeolithic Europeans.

U5b2a probably colonized Central/North Europe after the Ice age, was absorbed by Near Eastern farmers who arrived in Central/North Europe in 5000 BC, and then was absorbed again by Indo European-speaking migrants from East Europe circa 2500 BC. I also have U5b2a and my line is from Germany. U5b2a is one of the most popular U5-clades in Central/North/East Europe.
 
is your ancestry north of the river Rhine?
the river Rhine was, and still is an important frontier
it was the frontier of the Roman empire
for centuries they stopped or reduced the inflow of Germanic tribes
south of the river Rhine there was a mixture of Celtic and Germanic tribes
north of the river Rhine the Germanic tribes had allready expelled all Celtic tribes before Julius Ceasar reached the river Rhine.
 
Bicicleur, just to temper: Rhine was no more a barrier in the subsequent centuries of germanic colonization, rather a boulevard, it was a barrier for some time too in northern Germany-Netherlands at celtic times before becoming a longer and more southern barrier at Rome times; after, it did only slowen the mixtures; in the today Netherlands it act as a RELATIVE border, begun a bit gradual; in South it seems no more a border; no surprise; old surveys shew the Rhine acted as a way of colonization for Germanics as other rivers, under the Main and until Switzerland: more germanic populations in valleys, more celtic (+ pre-celtic + maybe (little) roman populations in the hills and mountains (Vôsges, Schwarzwalde). At finer scale, it is not sure the Mainz surroundings did not keep some traces of Roman and romanized colons...
 
By the way, I think Frisians of the XX° Cy are the closest to Scandinavians
 
This must be an individual case of yours if the datasets of the company are not scarce.
 
There is a strong North-South gradient in ancestry in the Netherlands. Frisian Dutch might be closer to Danes than to Southern Dutch people. That's simply because ancient Germanic peolpe expanded south from Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein and that the closer one is from the source the more Scandinavian one's genome tends to be.

As bicicleur said, the Rhine also marks an important historical boundary between Gallo-Romans and Germanics. Southern provinces like Limburg and Noord-Brabant are much closer to Belgium genetically but also culturally - not to mention historically as they are both the Dutch part of former Belgian medieval states.

All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Which company gave you those results? You notice that there is no Dutch category. So it's essentially Germanic (Scandinavian) vs Celtic (West and Central European), and your ratio makes me think more of the south of the Netherlands than to to the north. You are almost half Gallo-Roman. That's not what I would call nearly Scandinavian.
 
I heard from a Dutch genealogist that people of Netherlands score heavily Scandinavian in the commercial admixture test.
 
Bicicleur, just to temper: Rhine was no more a barrier in the subsequent centuries of germanic colonization, rather a boulevard, it was a barrier for some time too in northern Germany-Netherlands at celtic times before becoming a longer and more southern barrier at Rome times; after, it did only slowen the mixtures; in the today Netherlands it act as a RELATIVE border, begun a bit gradual; in South it seems no more a border; no surprise; old surveys shew the Rhine acted as a way of colonization for Germanics as other rivers, under the Main and until Switzerland: more germanic populations in valleys, more celtic (+ pre-celtic + maybe (little) roman populations in the hills and mountains (Vôsges, Schwarzwalde). At finer scale, it is not sure the Mainz surroundings did not keep some traces of Roman and romanized colons...

in peacefull times the Rhine is not a border, but in wartime it is
remember WW II
Belgium was liberated in 1944, but Holland north of the Rhine wasn't, resulting in the 'hunger winter' of 1944-45
There were also battles to take the bridges across the Rhine in Germany

on the other hand, the Franks invaded the Roman empire in wintertime, when the Rhine was frozen

the Rhine was also an important border during the Spanish inquisition in Belgium
many of the Belgian elite fled to the protestant Netherlands, across the Rhine delta to be safe for the oppressors
 
in peacefull times the Rhine is not a border, but in wartime it is
remember WW II
Belgium was liberated in 1944, but Holland north of the Rhine wasn't, resulting in the 'hunger winter' of 1944-45
There were also battles to take the bridges across the Rhine in Germany

on the other hand, the Franks invaded the Roman empire in wintertime, when the Rhine was frozen

the Rhine was also an important border during the Spanish inquisition in Belgium
many of the Belgian elite fled to the protestant Netherlands, across the Rhine delta to be safe for the oppressors

I shall temperate my own first post to you;
in fact rivers are rather a link close to their sources and along their course but very often began to be a frontier at their mouth near the sea when they are broadened;
yes, Rhine river acted as a border at some times of History I don't denied it, but borders move as we know, and even at its mouth it has not always been a frontier; so we have a gradiant, but not a too smooth one it's true; the regions just north of it have pops halfway to northerners in some way.
So I agree with you and Maciamo for a great part spite I splitted hairs.
 
All four of my grandparents were born in the Netherlands and all of my ancestry that I can trace, some of it back almost 500 years, is of Dutch origin. Yet, my autosomal DNA results came out 58% Scandinavian and only 42% West and Central European. What is the link between Scandinavia and the Netherlands?

Welkom Jana! I just read your posting, may be this can make things more clear:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Europe-a-case-study-the-Northern-Netherlands
 
Do they give a separate Dutch-ancestry? Because at least few years ago, they did not, and just divided the ancestry among German, French, and "general" Northern European.
 
Do they give a separate Dutch-ancestry? Because at least few years ago, they did not, and just divided the ancestry among German, French, and "general" Northern European.

Im afraid not, Holland was built under the lands of Middle Francia; between West Francia; France and East Francia; Holy Roman Empire. DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity. If you want to know how much Dutch you have, Geneology is your best bet. France and Germany have a similar history as Holland in antiquity since the Rhine River starts in Holland; the Romans Mentioned that the Rhine River was the rough borderline between Germanics and Galls; some Germanic tribes were reputed to have been intermerryinf with the Gauls on some occasions such as the Belgae.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Francia

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm
 
sorry, double posting
 
Last edited:
The history of the Netherlands begins with the Franks? The Rhine starts in the Netherlands?
ok...!?

Im afraid not, Holland was built under the lands of Middle Francia; between West Francia; France and East Francia; Holy Roman Empire. DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity. If you want to know how much Dutch you have, Geneology is your best bet. France and Germany have a similar history as Holland in antiquity since the Rhine River starts in Holland; the Romans Mentioned that the Rhine River was the rough borderline between Germanics and Galls; some Germanic tribes were reputed to have been intermerryinf with the Gauls on some occasions such as the Belgae.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Francia

http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm
 
The history of the Netherlands begins with the Franks? The Rhine starts in the Netherlands?
ok...!?

You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul
 
Last edited:
You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land in stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul


The essence of you statement, as I read it, is: 'DNA testing only can test for your ancestry from Antiquity' and that's why you can't have have separate Dutch DNA test!? I don't follow this reason. I think the situation in the Netherlands is not different from let's say Denmark, England or Germany... So or we have a strange kind of miscommunication or it's a lack of knowledge of the Dutch past...
 
You misread what I said, the Gauls and Germanic tribes both settled in the Netherlands. Of course history doesn't start with the Franks, didn't even say that. It's just that The franks had a land stretching from present day France, Holland and Germany. History of the Netherlands begins way earlier than the Franks. The Germanic Tribes, Gauls and even Stone Age Hunter Gatherers were in Holland before the Frankish Kingdom was established.

Anyway, here is the map of the Rhine River, here is where the Rhrine dumps out into the North Sea.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/rhine.htm

Here is the Wikipedia link of the Franks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Here is the link to the Gauls; including Belgae Gauls.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul

May be we miscommunicate, but I have no reason to believe why you can't make a separate DNA of the Dutch-ancestry like that of the Danes, Germans or Englishman.....
 
Scandinavian DNA comes from the frisians (=Anglo-Saxons). They emigrated from Denmark to the Netherlands (and the UK) around 400-450. Highest presence along the coast and along the river Rhine provinces Holland, Utrecht, Friesland, Groningen and the area of the Betuwe.
 

This thread has been viewed 34125 times.

Back
Top