new Y calls from mesolithic/neolithic Sweden

[bicicleur 2]

Genetiker has published new Y calls for 7 individuals from mesolithic/neolithic Sweden

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/more-y-snp-calls-from-stone-age-sweden/

It is quite obvious, there a quite a few false calls, both positive and negative.

These are the claims made by Genetiker :

Stora Förvar 11, a 7,500-year-old Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the island of Stora Karlsö in Sweden.
The calls show that Stora Förvar 11 belonged to Y haplogroup I1-M253.

Gökhem 4, a 5,000-year-old sample from the Funnelbeaker culture in Västergötland, Sweden
The calls show that Gökhem 4 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1b1-L161.1.

4 4,750-year-old samples from the Pitted Ware culture on the island of Gotland in Sweden
The calls show that Ajvide 52 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1a2a1-L1287.
The calls show that Ajvide 58 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1a2a1-L1287
The calls show that Ajvide 59 belonged to Y haplogroup I-M170.
The calls show that Ajvide 70 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1a2a1-L1287

a 4,500-year-old sample from the Pitted Ware culture on the island of Gotland in Sweden.
The calls show that Ire 8 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1b1a1-S2703.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Thanks for sharing bicicleur,

I1 has always been an interesting Y DNA haplogroup. It's strange because it's very popular in Scandinavia and parts of Germany/Netherlands and rare elsewhere and split from I2 over 20,000 years ago. First people assumed it was from the first humans to settle North Europe after the Ice age, and later it became clear I1's popularity is due to more much more recent events. But people I think changed their minds too much and overestimated its young age.

Now we have I1 from Neolithic Hungary and Mesolithic Sweden confirming it had a noticeable presence in European hunter gatherers 7,000-8,000 years ago. It was much more rare than its brother I2. In Late Neolithic/Bronze age Sweden/Denmark we can see I1 had similar frequencies as it does today in that region. So by 4,000 years ago whatever event(founder effect?) that caused I1 to go from being very rare to being very popular had already occurred.

The I1 from Neolithic Hungary was only tested for M253. There are over 200 Y SNPs that modern I1-folk have besides M253. Mesolithic Sf11 was negative for some of the Y SNPs modern I1-folk are positive for. This probably means he had pre-I1 not I1. He's probably an uncle not an ancestor to modern I1.

 

[Fire Haired14]

The I1 from Neolithic Hungary was only tested for M253. There are over 200 Y SNPs that modern I1-folk have besides M253. Mesolithic Sf11 was negative for some of the Y SNPs modern I1-folk are positive for. This probably means he had pre-I1 not I1. He's probably an uncle not an ancestor to modern I1.

Now that I look at Geneticker's work agian,

It isn't clear whether Sf11 had I1 or pre-I1, because he's also positive and negative IJ, I, and I1 SNPs. So, I guess Sf11 might have had I1 not pre-I1. Geneticker's analysis is confusing. I've tried to ask him questions, but when ever I comment on his blog my comments go under moderation and are never approved. I've used pseudo accounts to post but my comments are never accepted. It's frustrating.

Sf11 wasn't tested for many I1 subclades. So, for all we know I1 as it is today existed in the Mesolithic. This is very exciting news. The I1 from Neolithic Hungary(from hunter gatherer admixture) confirms to me I1 had a presence in Mesolithic Europeans, and wasn't extremely rare.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Thanks for sharing bicicleur,

I1 has always been an interesting Y DNA haplogroup. It's strange because it's very popular in Scandinavia and parts of Germany/Netherlands and rare elsewhere and split from I2 over 20,000 years ago. First people assumed it was from the first humans to settle North Europe after the Ice age, and later it became clear I1's popularity is due to more much more recent events. But people I think changed their minds too much and overestimated its young age.

Now we have I1 from Neolithic Hungary and Mesolithic Sweden confirming it had a noticeable presence in European hunter gatherers 7,000-8,000 years ago. It was much more rare than its brother I2. In Late Neolithic/Bronze age Sweden/Denmark we can see I1 had similar frequencies as it does today in that region. So by 4,000 years ago whatever event(founder effect?) that caused I1 to go from being very rare to being very popular had already occurred.

The I1 from Neolithic Hungary was only tested for M253. There are over 200 Y SNPs that modern I1-folk have besides M253. Mesolithic Sf11 was negative for some of the Y SNPs modern I1-folk are positive for. This probably means he had pre-I1 not I1. He's probably an uncle not an ancestor to modern I1.

YFull has 301 SNP's for I1.
They estimate TMRCA of I1 4700 years.
Stora Forvar was 7500 years old, i.e. 2800 years older.
If Stora Forvar is ancestral to I1, I guess he should miss about 30-35 of these 301 SNP's (10-12%) and be positive for all the others.
If he misses substantially more SNP's then he can't be ancestral.

In the Genetikers list I see 10 negative calls and 7 positive.
I'd say he is not ancestral to I1.

It would be interesting to make the same excercise for the Neolithic Hungarian I1.
Does anybody have the Y-SNP calls for this individual?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Now that I look at Geneticker's work agian,

It isn't clear whether Sf11 had I1 or pre-I1, because he's also positive and negative IJ, I, and I1 SNPs. So, I guess Sf11 might have had I1 not pre-I1. Geneticker's analysis is confusing. I've tried to ask him questions, but when ever I comment on his blog my comments go under moderation and are never approved. I've used pseudo accounts to post but my comments are never accepted. It's frustrating.

Sf11 wasn't tested for many I1 subclades. So, for all we know I1 as it is today existed in the Mesolithic. This is very exciting news. The I1 from Neolithic Hungary(from hunter gatherer admixture) confirms to me I1 had a presence in Mesolithic Europeans, and wasn't extremely rare.

that's what I told in my 1st post :

It is quite obvious, there a quite a few false calls, both positive and negative.

So everyting should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[EAB]

It is really interesting. The Goths from Gotland had been linked to the megoliths in Europe (or claimed affinity). Now we see how they were rather uncontained to the island if this was the case. Furthermore, the Ustase Croats claimed descendence from the Goths, which didn't make sense as I2 was not Scandinavian. But not it has been shown time and time again I2 used to be in Scandinvia an awful lot. Wonder what they heard to believe these things.