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Thread: Bronze Age Bulgarian sample

  1. #26
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    Genetiker's prediction is that 192.1, who seems to be genetically different from the other two Iron Age samples, and was a sacrificial victim, may be E-V13. E1b1b-CTS10679/PF1875/M5048
    E1b1b1-V68-M78-Z1919-V1083/CTS202/Z825
    See:
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/

    Also see Bicicleur's thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Thracian-E-V13

    Unfortunately, Genetiker didn't get anything for V2, the Bronze Age sample.

    Here is his autosomal analysis:
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...arian-genomes/

    He claims 192.1 has no Gedrosia but the rest have it.

    I'm not sure how much credence to put in any of this given the small number of snps.

    If this is all true, then it's tempting to think that he was a member of the local population who was subjugated by "Indo-Europeans" arriving in the Bronze and Iron Age, since E-V13 was already present since the late Neolithic.

    However, also according to Genetiker, K8, in a prestige burial, was J2-M410-PF4610-L26-PF5087-PF5160-PF5197-YSC0000253-Z7402

    So, was the J2 in the Balkans since the Bronze Age a different type of J2, and this one was part of the steppe migrations?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Genetiker's prediction is that 192.1, who seems to be genetically different from the other two Iron Age samples, and was a sacrificial victim, may be E-V13. E1b1b-CTS10679/PF1875/M5048
    E1b1b1-V68-M78-Z1919-V1083/CTS202/Z825
    See:
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/

    Also see Bicicleur's thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Thracian-E-V13

    Unfortunately, Genetiker didn't get anything for V2, the Bronze Age sample.

    Here is his autosomal analysis:
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...arian-genomes/

    He claims 192.1 has no Gedrosia but the rest have it.

    I'm not sure how much credence to put in any of this given the small number of snps.

    If this is all true, then it's tempting to think that he was a member of the local population who was subjugated by "Indo-Europeans" arriving in the Bronze and Iron Age, since E-V13 was already present since the late Neolithic.

    However, also according to Genetiker, K8, in a prestige burial, was J2-M410-PF4610-L26-PF5087-PF5160-PF5197-YSC0000253-Z7402

    So, was the J2 in the Balkans since the Bronze Age a different type of J2, and this one was part of the steppe migrations?
    Can this Genetiker be trusted? I mean he's some amateur blogger, correct me if i'm wrong.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Can this Genetiker be trusted? I mean he's some amateur blogger, correct me if i'm wrong.
    I don't know. He's been right about most of the uniparental markers, I think. The calculators are the calculators. I suppose anyone could run the genomes through them? However, there aren't all that many snps. His interpretations of the data are another issue.

    I'm just posting the K12b for each of them just for ease of reference.

    P192.1

    • 45.82% Caucasus
    • 26.87% Atlantic_Med
    • 21.68% North_European
    • 2.36% Sub_Saharan
    • 2.01% Northwest_African
    • 1.26% Siberian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Gedrosia
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    T2G2 Also Iron Age, but a higher status burial

    • 54.44% Gedrosia
    • 19.46% Sub_Saharan
    • 13.43% Atlantic_Med
    • 11.30% South_Asian
    • 1.34% Caucasus
    • 0.03% East_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% North_European
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    K8 The highest status Iron Age burial (J2M410)

    • 32.79% Atlantic_Med
    • 29.27% Gedrosia
    • 17.54% North_European
    • 17.50% Caucasus
    • 2.90% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan


    V2 Bronze Age

    • 44.15% North_European
    • 20.14% Sub_Saharan
    • 15.06% Gedrosia
    • 9.62% Siberian
    • 7.67% Caucasus
    • 3.35% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.01% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Atlantic_Med
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    Here is the Danish Bronze for comparision

    • 36.03% Atlantic_Med
    • 25.03% Gedrosia
    • 20.05% Siberian
    • 12.66% Southeast_Asian
    • 5.08% Sub_Saharan
    • 0.84% North_European
    • 0.31% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Caucasus
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    Amazing that the Bronze Age Danish sample has virtually no North European, and such high Siberian and south east Asian. There's significant Atlanto Med and Gedrosia.

    The Sub-Saharan in V2 looks totally off so there just may not be enough snps.

    This is a comment that appeared on the Genetiker blog.

    "But let’s look at them step by step:
    – V2[Bronze Age] seems to be North European with strong West Asian admixture (Gedrosia), but it’s very noisy.

    – T2G2 [Iron Age] seems to be predominantly West Asian (Gedrosia), but again very noisy.
    – P192-1 [Iron Age] is more Southern than present-day Bulgarians and Frenchmen, but more Northern than Greeks and Portuguese, while the West Asian component is astoundingly weak.
    – K8[High status Iron Age] in contrast has a very strong West Asian admixture, and besides that he’s quite Mediterranean, and also somewhat Northern.


    Even though P192-1 and K8 are both from Iron Age Bulgaria, they look as if they were from different ethnicities. And if they really were both Thracians, then P192-1 may have been rather from a Thracicized, maybe pre-IE substrate."

    That seems about right, doesn't it for 192-1 and K8? The other two may just not have enough snps for accuracy.

    P192-1 is not your standard EEF person. What migrations and mixing formed him? Does anyone have the K12 for Otzi?

    K8 looks like a mix to me.

  4. #29
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    Yep, Europeans were not very well mixed yet in Bronze Age with IE newcomers.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    We have high coverage Bronze age Danes from Allentoft 2015 and they aren't similar to results for the low coverage Dan Geneticker has. This gives me doubt for the Ancient Bulgarians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    We have high coverage Bronze age Danes from Allentoft 2015 and they aren't similar to results for the low coverage Dan Geneticker has. This gives me doubt for the Ancient Bulgarians.
    Did Genetiker run the Allentoft Bronze Age Danes through the same calculators? You have to compare apples to apples, if you know what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yep, Europeans were not very well mixed yet in Bronze Age with IE newcomers.
    I think that's a big part of what we're seeing in a lot of places.

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    Gedrosia is a strange component. I don't know how stable it is. If you look at the 192.1, it has approximately 46% Caucasus and no Gedrosia. K8, from the same time period, has only 17 Caucasus, but it has 29% Gedrosia. Together, that equals 46% from the same part of the world. (Together they make up "West Asian" on 7b. Yes, I know they aren't exactly the same from calculator to calculator.) The Atlantic Med scores are similar. The only difference is the North Euro in K8.

    Maybe that's making too much of it?

    Anyway, here are the K12 scores for 192-1 and K8 since they have the most snps. I think the other two are so noisy because there aren't enough snps.

    P192-1

    • 42.86% Mediterranean
    • 19.81% West_European
    • 19.50% West_Asian
    • 9.70% East_European
    • 7.77% Northeast_Asian
    • 0.36% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% Neo_African
    • 0.00% Palaeo_African
    • 0.00% South_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    K8

    • 39.88% West_European
    • 24.25% East_European
    • 14.34% West_Asian
    • 12.79% Mediterranean
    • 5.86% South_Asian
    • 2.87% Palaeo_African
    • 0.01% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% Neo_African
    • 0.00% Northeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Southwest_Asian


    192-1 has West Euro and East Euro, but there's a big increase with K8 and Mediterranean goes down in him as a result. The West Asian isn't all that different. It's 20 in P192 and 14 in K 8. There weren't those kind of West Asian scores in Central European EEF, correct? Where did it come from that it was in the Balkans already before the Iron Age? Who brought it? Why wasn't it mixed with EHG ancestry?

    I took a look at the scores for the modern populations in Dv3 and compared them to 192-1 results for that calculator. I remember someone saying about this sample when it was first discussed that it was Tuscan like, but Tuscans are both more West Euro and more Med. He seems closer to the Greeks. The differences don't seem to be caused by any "Slavic" gene flow because the East Euro stays the same while the West Euro goes down almost the same small amount as the West Asian goes up. It's all getting very confusing, because he's not like the high status Iron Age person, and even less like the Bronze Age person, but he's very much like the prior inhabitants. This raises a large question for me as to how much change was actually brought to some areas by these post Neolithic migrations.

    Mediterranean: 41.9
    West Asian: 25.7
    West European: 13.5
    East European: 11

    Anyhow, this comes with a big warning that even these two samples don't have the optimum number of snps.There are 11,345 for 192-1 and 16,093 for K8. Does anyone know how many the Allentoft samples had, by the way?

    (By comparison, the T2g2 only had 697 snps, and the Danish sample 6872, so I can see how those results might be off.)

    They really should try to resequence these with the newer technology.

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