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Thread: Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post

    In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.

    If we only knew where White Croatia was.

    Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

    Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..

    english croatian polish

    day dni dni

    brothers bratiju bracia

    goes iže idzie

    holy svetuja świata

    territory krajina kraj

    wrote pisah pisal

    only edino jedynie

    Here are some words that are used by Poles and Croats today and year 1100. ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet


    L. Niederle held that in Prikarpatju [2] used to live with the Croatian tribe poludržavnim structure which was the center of Krakow. According to the thesis O. Šahmatova, Croats lived in the territory of Galicia [3] in the 9th century, and their main city was Džarvab. M. Barsov, toponomastic analyzing the voluminous material, trying to prove that the Croats belonged to a territory that included Prikarpatje, the area of the peaks Tatranskih Carpathians to the Tisza and its tributaries in the south Pripjeta, Dnjistra to the east and the Vistula in the north.

    Medieval fortification Prikarpatja Ukrainian Carpathians and more than a century, attracting the attention of a wide circle of scientists, and amateur archaeologists. During this period it was discovered and excavated more than 200 hill-forts. Among them, known for writing the monument as a center of economic, political and cultural life of the place: Galic, Terebovlja, Peremišilj (today Przemysl, Poland), Zvenigorod, Vasiljiv etc...



    http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats...-slavic-tribe/

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

    Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..

    english croatian polish

    day dni dni

    brothers bratiju bracia

    goes iže idzie

    holy svetuja świata

    territory krajina kraj

    wrote pisah pisal

    only edino jedynie

    Here are some words that are used by Poles and Croats today and year 1100. ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet


    L. Niederle held that in Prikarpatju [2] used to live with the Croatian tribe poludržavnim structure which was the center of Krakow. According to the thesis O. Šahmatova, Croats lived in the territory of Galicia [3] in the 9th century, and their main city was Džarvab. M. Barsov, toponomastic analyzing the voluminous material, trying to prove that the Croats belonged to a territory that included Prikarpatje, the area of the peaks Tatranskih Carpathians to the Tisza and its tributaries in the south Pripjeta, Dnjistra to the east and the Vistula in the north.

    Medieval fortification Prikarpatja Ukrainian Carpathians and more than a century, attracting the attention of a wide circle of scientists, and amateur archaeologists. During this period it was discovered and excavated more than 200 hill-forts. Among them, known for writing the monument as a center of economic, political and cultural life of the place: Galic, Terebovlja, Peremišilj (today Przemysl, Poland), Zvenigorod, Vasiljiv etc...



    http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats...-slavic-tribe/
    The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
    Example from Baska tablet;
    "Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
    "Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
    "Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
    "Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
    "Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
    "Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
    "vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
    "vъ edino" typical for Bulgarian,Macedonian dialects.
    When i read the Baska tablet to me is more similar with present Bulgaro-Macedonian then with Croatian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
    Example from Baska tablet;
    "Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
    "Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
    "Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
    "Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
    "Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
    "Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
    "vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
    "vъ edino" typical for Bulgarian,Macedonian dialects.
    When i read the Baska tablet to me is more similar with present Bulgaro-Macedonian then with Croatian.
    Slavic.jpg

    If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..

    In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....

    It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Slavic.jpg

    If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..

    In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....

    It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...
    Well it's not the same,with reformation on languages many "archaic" dialects went extinct and continue to do so,that's pitty,they choose dialect made it official and majority spoke it,prior languages were much more similar among South Slavs,however South Slavic languages are more similar amongst themselves then Eastern or Western among them,now you have six states all create their own languages,which i call it dialects regardless they "innovate" things to make them as much different,the things they did perhaps when they were creating separate ethnicities and their own languages.

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    You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins
    How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...
    So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post.



    How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?



    What does language do with genes..?

    Hungarians are genetically Slavs but they not speak Indo-European language..

    Serbs coming from Lusatia but they not speak Sorbian language..

    Most Serbian R1a is from Volga Carpathian region but today Serbs not speak Russian or Ukrainian..

    Majority Croatian genes are from southern Poland but Croats not speak Polish..

    Serbs have in population second haplotype E1b who has no connection with Slavs but these 20% Serbs speak Slavic... same as Montenegrins..

    So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?
    I looked at linguistic tree...

    Slavic.jpg

    Here are Slovenian and Croatian from same source ..This means that originate from one language or same source..

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uages_tree.svg
    Last edited by hrvat22; 12-09-15 at 17:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...
    Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe. Now, what is the source of South Slavic language? Serbs or Bulgarians brought it in from Ukraine? If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.
    There is easier explanation however, Croats, Serbs and even Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavs came from same area somewhere in Ukraine.

    Unless we really go back to year 600 BC, the times when whole Slavs spoke same language, then it is possible that South Slavs came from Poland, but we can't speak of any differentiation of South Slavs yet, to Serbs or Croats, which happened hundreds of years later.
    In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    LeBrok
    Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe.
    Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from Lusatia however genes tell a different story ..

    If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.
    How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..

    In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.
    I said that some words are similar, but then is not same type of Slavic language..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post

    How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..
    I have seen the best genetic connection with Czechs.

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    Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.
    Of course the specific R1a subclass matter to solve this puzzle, Like M458 and Z280

    If M458 turns to be Slavic in origin (spread only by Slavs), but I2a Dinaric turns not slavic, than indeed, genetically speaking Greeks might be more Slavic than Bosnians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.
    If we assume that Greek R1a is autohton in Balkans then migration goes from Greek to other countries...

    R1a..

    Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L 366-C
    Vasiliada 520 52, Grèce

    >Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295> L366-x1
    Croatia..

    Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L 366-C
    Tryavna, Bulgarie

    R-L366YP346 * L366 * YP1450... 1 SNPsformed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpmore
    • id:YF02279 Rus

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L366/

    Then migration goes from Greek to other countries, Croatia, Bulgaria, Rusia..etc..

    Or haplotype...


    >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP41 8>YP1013
    Grecce

    Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP418 *
    Bulgaria

    >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP41 8*
    Russia

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP417/
    R-YP418 (age: 2075 ybp)

    They were brothers, two thousand years ago .. where I do not know .

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    No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.
    Only if they steal females from generation to generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop.
    Sure but not in this case. The territory is vast and population is not small. There are no hot spots of M458 in Balkans to indicate explosion/fast growth of this subclade.
    All Balkans show 2-5% of M458, and looks like consistent one time "flood" of some people. From known history it resembles Slavic invasion more than anything.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.

    Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?

    My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavonac View Post
    ...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?
    R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.

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    DF27 peaks among Basques and Catalans. None of these people have Celtic ancestry. Native Catalans didn't even speak an Indo European language before the Roman conquest...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.
    I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavonac View Post
    I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.


    Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?

    My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?
    Croats may have a half of I2a but it does not change direction of settling tribes of Croats to Dalmatia ..

    In southern Poland is not mentioned Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs. only Croats....


    Name, music, costumes, customs, flags, symbols, language has nothing to do with genes ... All who have surname Horvat may have R1a and it does not mean anything except that they come from the same ancestors ... But Croatian type of R1a has high frequency in southern Poland..

    I2a is not Indo-European haplotype and now belongs to Slavs and Slav speakers who are Indo-Europeans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavonac View Post
    I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.
    According to genetics Dalmatia has less Illyrian and Roman genes than northern Croatia ..

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    Originally Posted by Slavonac
    ...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?
    Most of R1b came to Croatia or with the Croats or the Vlach...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Croatia



    Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?

    Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
    1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from Lusatia however genes tell a different story ..
    Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_...serbs03_01.png

    And you already have a people there, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_...serbs03_01.png

    And you already have a people there, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

    Porfirogenet...
    Serbs..
    ..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the Frankish Kingdom..

    Frankish Kingdom...

    Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg.jpg

    Frankish Kingdom is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...

    However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, because Serbs do not exist at that time ..

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