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Thread: Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Porfirogenet...
    Serbs..
    ..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the Frankish Kingdom..

    Frankish Kingdom...

    Attachment 7454

    Frankish Kingdom is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...
    Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.

    However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, because Serbs do not exist at that time ..
    :facepalm: Ok, whatever :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavonac View Post
    Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?

    Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
    1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.
    I replied in a private message...If you need me I'm here..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.



    :facepalm: Ok, whatever :)
    Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....

    There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...


    For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....

    There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...


    For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...
    Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?
    Why the Serbs, Macedonians, Albanians and Bulgarians do not unite under name of Turkey.?

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    I don't know, ask them. Anyway, what does it have to do with my question, and Croats?

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    Ethnic group
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    Southern Poland...

    R1a....

    Subgroup: 6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP16 26
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: N78724
    Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Gierczyce, Poland


    Dalmatia, Croatia..

    >Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP39 29
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 97870
    Most Distant Ancestor: Soccotta 1600s Zadar County Dalmatia
    Marker Location: Ždrelac, Pašman, Croatia

    Common ancestor these two people is mutation Y2608 ,...mutation R-YP1626 from Poland is old (age: 1405 ybp)

    YP3929 mutation from Croatia should be same approximate age...

    Conclusion ...

    Split between these two people or their ancestors happened sometime around 600 A.D probably in southern Poland which coincides with historical information about arrival of Croats to Dalmatia...

    It is interesting that in Dalmatia in immediate surroundings there is a person with same haplotype ..

    R-CTS3402

    Subgroup: 6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608-A1 (another Big Y needed)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 351765
    Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Ruista, Croatia

    But that person is Serbian origin, and according to legend or myth his ancestors comes from Kosovo ...

    Therefore that person was through male line Croatian origin who in the Turkish time become Orthodox Christian and later become Serb but his genes remained unchanged ....

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    Update..

    Mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin from southern Poland..

    http://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

    Mutation I-S17250*, I-Y5596, I-Z16983, I-Y4882 are White Croatian and Croatian origin from all over Europe..

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post

    For now Croatian genetics shows that most of its male population comes from White Croatia to Croatia..This means that file of Porphyrogenitus from 10th century which tells about arrival of Croats is true...
    Do you read serious scientific sources or popular nationalistic myths?

    Everyone can believe what he wants, there are people who still believe that sun revolves around earth.

    Fourth sides based on a ficitional story, how much more?

    Because serious scientific sources completely different view Porphyrogenitus’ story, which is already seen (based on earlier traditions other populations).

    I gave what dr Dzino Australian scientist Croatian origin writes about Porphyrogenitus’ story as fictive story, as myth, here another scientist:

    F. Borri Institut für Mittelalterforschung, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften

    " The article examines Constantine Porphyrogenitus’ (913–59) witness on the arrival of the Croats in Dalmatia during the seventh century. The emperor’s narrative proposes a migration from a land called White Croatia, located somewhere in central Europe, and a battle with the Avars in order to secure their new territory. The migration, although becoming an important element in nationalist thought, is not confirmed by any other source, neither contemporary, nor later, being reported only by Constantine. I propose that the migration was instead a literary pattern deployed by the emperor in order to explain the complex developments which brought a new elite, called Croats, to a leading position in tenth-century Dalmatia. "

    The basis for the Porphyrogenitus’ story and scientific analysis (of course parts)

    " If we do not know of a direct source for Constantine’s DAI, a source that probably did not exist anyway, it is still possible to define a common pool for the traditions described in Chapters 30 and 31. As we will see, certain elements – such as the existence of brothers at the very beginningof a population’s history, or the crossing of a river (normally the Danube) – are mentioned by many authors in describing Barbarian migrations, often of Scythian groups. Moreover, from the very start of Greek ethnography, similarities of names in places distant from one another were explained through the movement of consistent masses of men: a unifying gaze related ethnonyms and place names distant in space and time in the effort to rationalize a situation contemporary to the author. Perhaps Constantine understood the presence of previously unknown ethnonyms only through the migration of a population. Already Thucydides had explained the complicated ethnic geography of fifth-century bc Greece as a result of successive migrations, mainly the Dorian one, allegedly taking place in the eleventh century bc. Also, the story of the seven siblings finds suggestive parallels in Herodotus, the main model for the ethnography of the Barbarians of the northern steppe. Herodotus described an embassy to the Adriatic composed of five men and two women, Hyperboreans from the lands north of the Danube, echoing very closely the migration of the five brothers and two sisters from White Croatia to Dalmatia. It is therefore possible that Constantine Porphyrogenitus found in Herodotus a model for settlement to apply to a population which, in his mind, had followed a similar route.

    Other narrative elements of the Croatian migration seem to be dependent on the Bulgarian Wanderung described by Theophanes and Patriarch Nicephorus. The events are reported in Theophanes’ Chronography for the year 680 AD, the year 6171 from the world’s creation. The same anno Mundi, possibly by coincidence, is mentioned in the DAI, although Constantine does not quote it correctly, describing instead an episode linked to Arab expansion. Theophanes described a land north of the Black Sea, extending between the Sea of Azov and the River Kouphis, probably the Kuban, called Great or Old Bulgaria, which was inhabited by the Onogundurs and the Cutrigurs. In the years of the Sicilian expedition of Constans II (663–8), Krobatos, who was ruling the region, died leaving five sons after him. The first son, called Batbaian, obeyed his father and remained in Great Bulgaria. The second, Kotragos, crossed the RiverDon and settled there.The fourth and the fifth went over the Danube: one reached Pannonia, becoming a subject of the Avar Khan, while the other travelled to Pentapolis, close to Ravenna. After this diaspora the Khazars came, submitting to Batbaian and his followers. Theophanes added that the Bulgars going to Pannonia became the lords of the Seven Tribes, a Slavic confederation neighbouring Avar lands to the west and the south.

    Up to this point there are many overlapping narrative elements, although no single one of the story lines here mentioned was Constantine’s direct source. It appears clear, however, that the narrative elements employed by the emperor were largely present in texts that he could easily access. The narrative concerning the Bulgar Urgeschichte apparently furnished Constantine with the key to interpretingCroatian history, a history which he was not able to find in his sources because theCroatswere a group of recent formation. Owing to the numerous resonances between characters like Kotragos and Korbatos and the Hrvati, the Bulgars, absent in the pages of the DAI, offered the Croatian past which Constantine was looking for. Many elements of the Croatian migration could be explained by this.

    Constantine, therefore, framed the scanty information he possessed on the Croatian past according to the models that previous authors deployed to describe Scythian populations, in order to create a new history. Roman imperial historiography shared similar attitudes, connecting populations gathered around recent names with other, more ancient and prestigious ones. A good example, though distant in time, is clearly Jordanes who equated Goths and Gets, a population already mentioned by Herodotus. I believe that the information concerning Bulgars and Cutrigurs was used in the writing of Chapter 30, since Constantine considered them close to the Croats. Even Constantine’s dating of the Croats’ arrival during Heraclius’ reign could be linked to Nicephorus’ witness on Koubratos being elevated to the dignity of patρ_kioς by the same emperor. Similar motifs, like that of the brothers, one of them eponymous, are the same as those used by Herodotus in describing the Scythian past. The narrative of Chapter 31 must also have been dependent on further sources which, unfortunately, I have not been able to identify. The absence of a clear Croatian origo gentis, transmitted from father to son through generations from White Croatia or even further, is moreover confirmed by the disparate and heterogeneous nature of the material that Constantine was forced to use, and by the appearance in the DAI of two divergent versions, only partially elaborated. Through a single clear intent, the different traditions were simultaneously collected in the same treatise in a way which we may judge to be uncritical, though apparently the Konkurrenz der Ursprünge did not represent a contradiction for Constantine Porphyrogenitus, nor perhaps for his audience either.

    Who, therefore, were the Croats? At the moment this question is still difficult to answer. Milo Barada suggested that the Croats were a group formed at the edges of the Avar empire and Walter Pohl proposed the Croats to be border guards of the Avar empire, developing in an ethnic group only in the ninth century. I suggest that we should date this process even later.

    What we can affirm with a degree of certainty is that Constantine lent importance to the Croats because he thought they might make good allies against the Bulgars, and he wanted to bring this dynamic, recently formed group to the attention of his successor. The emperor, however, expressed this judgement in a text destined to have a very poor circulation, dedicating to the Croats much less space in writings reaching a wider audience. Moreover, Constantine’s predictions never came about, and the Croats did not become a leading power in the Balkans. The same emperor stated that the amazing military power of the Croats was in decline at the time he was writing, which is perhaps a trace of the difficulties that the group was experiencing in affirming itself. After the death of Romanus II (963), the conquests of Emperor John (969–76)
    must have limited the importance of the Croats as an adversary of the Bulgarians. Under Basil II (976–1025), finally, both Byzantines and Venetians further undermined the chances of this recently formed group. In later years the Croats were mentioned in the Greek world almost only by authors who were quoting the Life of Basil or the Book of Ceremonies.

    In conclusion, we can assert that the Croatian migration did not take place, but that Constantine Porphyrogenitus created it relying on the literary models traditionally applied to describe the Landnahme of Scythian Barbarians. "

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    Croatian migration did not take place,
    Prove with genetics...

    Historians refute Porphyrogenetus because fairy tale about Serbs.. but it does not refute story about Croats...


    Majority of Bulgarian I2a types are mutation (I-CTS10228) which is father of White Croatian I-S17250 mutation, part of them has and White Croatian mutation S17250,... this is a possible link with Bulgarians and Croatians or White Croatians in the early days of Bulgarian history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Prove with genetics...

    Historians refute Porphyrogenetus because fairy tale about Serbs.. but it does not refute story about Croats...


    Majority of Bulgarian I2a types are mutation (I-CTS10228) which is father of White Croatian I-S17250 mutation, part of them has and White Croatian mutation S17250,... this is a possible link with Bulgarians and Croatians or White Croatians in the early days of Bulgarian history...
    No.

    You can believe what you want, for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all.

    However everyone can see what serious scientists write about Porphyrogenetius' story.

    Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin, Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats, by Daniel Dzino:

    page 112

    " The story of the arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia' is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity. The narrative is no different from too obviously fictive story that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, we cannot see it is realistic, or even original, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople. "

    ...
    Dr Borri and Dr Dzino tell us that Porphyrogenetius' Croatian myth was derived of myth of the arrival of Bulgars, mentoined in Theophanes and Patriarch Nicephorus. Dr Borri speaks about common pool of the tradition mentioned by many authors in describing Barbarian migrations (often of Scythian groups).

    Science is handled on the basis of facts and analysis. But science requires hard work.
    ...

    Of course always there is someone who doesn't want read what scientists write and listen what scientists speak.

    There are still people who believe that earth is flat, they don't want see scientific facts, but it is their right to believe in fiction, who cares.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    No.

    You can believe what you want, for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all.

    However everyone can see what serious scientists write about Porphyrogenetius' story.

    Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin, Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats, by Daniel Dzino:

    page 112

    " The story of the arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia' is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity. The narrative is no different from too obviously fictive story that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, we cannot see it is realistic, or even original, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople. "

    ...
    Dr Borri and Dr Dzino tell us that Porphyrogenetius' Croatian myth was derived of myth of the arrival of Bulgars, mentoined in Theophanes and Patriarch Nicephorus. Dr Borri speaks about common pool of the tradition mentioned by many authors in describing Barbarian migrations (often of Scythian groups).

    Science is handled on the basis of facts and analysis. But science requires hard work.
    ...

    Of course always there is someone who doesn't want read what scientists write and listen what scientists speak.

    There are still people who believe that earth is flat, they don't want see scientific facts, but it is their right to believe in fiction, who cares.
    Some Croatian historians say that Croats come from Iran, therefore historians can say anything but genetics does not..

    The narrative is no different from too obviously fictive story
    Prove with genetics for Croats, therefore genetics denies your claim and statement mentioned historians....For Serbs is a fictional story, and this is confirmed by genetics..

    for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all.
    Thomas the Archdeacon 13st..

    The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia.


    Last edited by hrvat22; 10-12-15 at 09:12.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    historians can say anything but genetics does not..

    Prove with genetics for Croats, therefore genetics denies your claim and statement mentioned historians....For Serbs is a fictional story, and this is confirmed by genetics..
    Do not be naïve.

    Dr Francesco Borri is expert and authority.

    His work is very unfavorable for Croats because he places that Croats occur only after the ninth century.

    Tomorrow at some Arbitration his expert opinion can be crucial.

    Dr Dzino Australian scientist by Croatian origin, unlike you, is wise, he does not want to be judged on the story of a Byzantine emperor Porphyrogenitus, which is unfavorable for Croats, he clearly says that it is a fiction.

    You need to finish faculty of history, and master and doctorate, you should herald the scientific papers until you reach the level that publish work in a respectable journal, for this you need fifteen years, only then you can be factor like to dr Borri.

    Writing dr Borri, and authors of similar opinions, sets the question of jus, who has lived in Dalmatia and around territories.

    Dalmatia and Istria are the most in the spotlight, in a pile of documents related to Wikipedia and similar sites, appears to name to Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae tribe, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning sheep, Albanian dele.

    And so subtle people around the world may believe Albanians here have a connection to Dalmatia and once lived in Dalmatia, Dalmatia word itself is of Albanian origin.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dalmatae

    And you can imagine how Albanians understand:






    Your thinking harm Croats and this thinking is only in favor of the Albanians and all those who support the Albanians.

    Unfortunately hatred between Croats and Serbs is great and I have no illusions that this something can be done. They from outside, who worked on that hatred, they succeeded.

    But Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are brothers by blood and we know it.

    Nations in the 19th century determinated by faith, Catholic Serbs became Croats, Orthodox Croats - Serbs, Serbs and Croats Muslim became Bosniacs, Bosnian Orthodox and Catholics – Serbs and Croats.

    We would discuss till tomorrow morning but apparently it is not worth.

    Dr Borri has established standards and he is an expert, to understand that what I write you would no longer chase your genetic imagination and referred to Porphyrogenetus.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    His work is very unfavorable for Croats because he places that Croats occur only after the ninth century
    We have Croatian scientists who claim that Croats are from Iran, others claim that we are in the Balkans 20,000 years


    I-Z16983 (age: 1495 ybp)



    http://yfull.com/tree/I-Z16983/


    Dr Dzino Australian scientist by Croatian origin, unlike you, is wise, he does not want to be judged on the story of a Byzantine emperor Porphyrogenitus, which is unfavorable for Croats, he clearly says that it is a fiction.
    For some Croatian scholars is fiction because Serbs according to Porphyrogenitus living at half of Croatian territory...I understand them..

    Fact is that story of Serbs is fiction but it is not for Croats .. For Croats Porphyrogenitus is entirely accurate and it is proven with genes...


    You need to finish faculty of history, and master and doctorate, you should herald the scientific papers until you reach the level that publish work in a respectable journal,
    This is my journal


    https://web.archive.org/web/20110722...r%20Hg%20I.pdf



    Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae tribe, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning sheep, Albanian dele.
    These people are mainly fled to Albania and Kosovo..

    But Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are brothers by blood and we know it
    If we believe the genes we are not brothers we are Croatians.

    Nations in the 19th century determinated by faith, Catholic Serbs became Croats, Orthodox Croats - Serbs, Serbs and Croats Muslim became Bosniacs, Bosnian Orthodox and Catholics – Serbs and Croats.
    List of the Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács in 1526..

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360/...Du-1526-godine

    Half of military were Croatians which exist in Bosnia, along the river Drina, Niksic (Montenegro), sandžak (southern Serbia)...Serbs on this list does not exist..

    Evliya Çelebi (Çelebi), the famous Turkish travel XVIII. (1660 - 1661)

    Near Foca on the Drina River, in the old town Prača, it (Çelebi)
    "They gave 50 Croatian young men under arms for companions". To the Gacko field "gets 300 of Croatian gazija (heroes)". Attribute gazija (hero) could be given only to Muslims ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fo%C4%8Da



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacko


    He located Croats in the Bay of Kotor (Montenegro). He states, that the inhabitants of Herceg-Novi are Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Kotor

    From the town of Risan army went to conquer rebels in the mountains of Piva and Niksic (central Montenegro), First they arrived in nahija Piva. There said, that they are all clean, true Croats, which gives him the title enemies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nik%C5%A1i%C4%87

    Ottoman historian Aali (1542nd-1599th), who was born in Gallipoli

    As for the tribe of Croats, which is attributed to the Bosna River, their importance is reflected in the happy disposition; They are known in Bosnia and after the river they are named..

    No doubt Bosniaks, belong to the Croatian people, they are characterized as a simple soldiers with kindness and devotion..


    Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (1506 - 1579)
    Emperor give eferman (command) that Roman monks in Budapest, Timisoara and Dubrovnik, and all area of Croatian people are not asking for charity, if this people belongs on Greek Patriarchate..

    John Skylitzes, Latinized as Ioannes Skylitzes (1040-1101)
    Bulgaria's leaders ask Mihajlo, who was ruler of those who call themselves Croats, who lived in Kotor and Prapratnica (Montenegro), and who had a lot of land under him, to help them and to work together with them and give them his son who will be declared as emperor of Bulgaria "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

    wikipedia..
    Mihailo, Michael in Cyrillic, the original king of Doclea in the Montenegrin history, chief Duklean state of the Vojislavljević from 1046th to 1081st year.

    etc,etc..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    List of the Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács in 1526..

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360/...Du-1526-godine

    Half of military were Croatians which exist in Bosnia, along the river Drina, Niksic (Montenegro), sandžak (southern Serbia)...Serbs on this list does not exist..
    They were on the other side :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    They were on the other side :)
    Yes, Croats from Bosnia who converted to Islam fought for Turkey ... their descendants are today Bosniaks Muslims of Bosnia ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    We have Croatian scientists who claim that Croats are from Iran, others claim that we are in the Balkans 20,000 years
    Congratulations.

    What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is holy scripture.


    No doubt Bosniaks, belong to the Croatian people
    Serbs say that Bosniacs are Serbs.

    Croats say that Bosniacs are Croats.

    Bosniacs deny that they are Croats, and Bosniacs deny that they are Serbs, and what.

    Tomorrow is new day, and Balkan bickering continue.


    ...
    By the way, story of Porphyrogenetius is unfavorable for Croats.

    Dr Francesco Borri, who is now a postdoctoral studies, on basis of Porphyrogenetius argues that Croats as ethnic group emerged only in 9th century.

    You vs Dr Borri, layman vs scientist.

    ...
    Dr Dzino, who is Croatian origin is smart, he knows that Porphyrogenetius story is not good for Croats and he claims that it is fiction, myth.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Congratulations.

    What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.
    These historians who claim that Croats live in the Balkans 20,000 years have used 10 year old genetics research...today is completely different and genetics proves migration of Croats from White Croatia to Dalmatia ...

    It is holy scripture.
    99.9% accurate, historical records may or may not be accurate but genetics is exact


    Serbs say that Bosniacs are Serbs.

    Take Genetics and prove it

    Tomorrow is new day, and Balkan bickering continue.
    There is no need to be nervous, sir, genetics is here to help, as well as aspirin ..hahaha


    You vs Dr Borri, layman vs scientist.
    Genetics alone against all, and we will see who would win

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Congratulations.

    What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.



    It is holy scripture.




    Serbs say that Bosniacs are Serbs.

    Croats say that Bosniacs are Croats.

    Bosniacs deny that they are Croats, and Bosniacs deny that they are Serbs, and what.

    Tomorrow is new day, and Balkan bickering continue.


    ...
    By the way, story of Porphyrogenetius is unfavorable for Croats.

    Dr Francesco Borri, who is now a postdoctoral studies, on basis of Porphyrogenetius argues that Croats as ethnic group emerged only in 9th century.

    You vs Dr Borri, layman vs scientist.

    ...
    Dr Dzino, who is Croatian origin is smart, he knows that Porphyrogenetius story is not good for Croats and he claims that it is fiction, myth.
    Here is my opinion. Not scientific, just personal.
    Bosnia's are not Slavic Serbs, neither Croats. They are largely pre-Slavic population that lost their language as the result of invaders but kept their conscious as not Slavs. Physically many Bosnia-ks resemble Albanians. Of course the Slavic element is present there but in smaller percentage. I base my assumption in the relatively low R1A haplo among Bosnians.
    Croats of Dalmatia are closer to Bosnia's. Serbs and the rest of Croats are more or less the same, with religious differences.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    These historians who claim that Croats live in the Balkans 20,000 years have used 10 year old genetics research...today is completely different and genetics proves migration of Croats from White Croatia to Dalmatia ...

    99.9% accurate, historical records may or may not be accurate but genetics is exact

    Take Genetics and prove it

    There is no need to be nervous, sir, genetics is here to help, as well as aspirin ..hahaha

    Genetics alone against all, and we will see who would win
    Childish (not offense).

    Selection of Porphyrogenitus as a key starting point is wrong.

    And Croatian historians don’t appreciate Porphyrogenitus.

    About Croat-Serb border
    For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:

    From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and Chlebena becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.

    According to Porphyrogenitus unambiguously situation is :



    This means that Bosnia is Serbian county and it is in Serbia. And Pagania, Zachumia, Terebunia are Serbian lands too.

    For example Porphyrogenitus says: “Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs”.

    But for Croats is much better what dr Dzino, historian of Croatian origin says that story of Porphyrogenetius is fiction, myth.

    Porphyrogenetius is unfavourable for Croats.

    Everyone can see, Croats as ethnic group emerged in ninth century, according dr Francesco Borri who argues it based on story of Porphyrogenitus.

    ...
    I will not think if you Croat, or Serb from Croatia etc.

    Also, I will not be defender of Croats, or Serbs.

    I only say that your choice of Porphyrogenitus is wrong, and whole your story based on Porphyrogenitus

    Building tower in the air (about genetics), without foundation (Porphyrogenitus).

    ...
    As for the selection of Ken Nortvedt, one source is insufficient, you should a lot of sources. Although he is respectable, but what you put it was not published in a scientific paper.

    It would be proper to seek scientific papers in relevant journals, for example the European Journal of Human Genetics, the American Journal of Physical Anthropology etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Childish (not offense).

    Selection of Porphyrogenitus as a key starting point is wrong.

    And Croatian historians don’t appreciate Porphyrogenitus.

    About Croat-Serb border
    For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:

    From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and Chlebena becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.

    According to Porphyrogenitus unambiguously situation is :



    This means that Bosnia is Serbian county and it is in Serbia. And Pagania, Zachumia, Terebunia are Serbian lands too.

    For example Porphyrogenitus says: “Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs”.

    But for Croats is much better what dr Dzino, historian of Croatian origin says that story of Porphyrogenetius is fiction, myth.

    Porphyrogenetius is unfavourable for Croats.

    Everyone can see, Croats as ethnic group emerged in ninth century, according dr Francesco Borri who argues it based on story of Porphyrogenitus.

    ...
    I will not think if you Croat, or Serb from Croatia etc.

    Also, I will not be defender of Croats, or Serbs.

    I only say that your choice of Porphyrogenitus is wrong, and whole your story based on Porphyrogenitus

    Building tower in the air (about genetics), without foundation (Porphyrogenitus).

    ...
    As for the selection of Ken Nortvedt, one source is insufficient, you should a lot of sources. Although he is respectable, but what you put it was not published in a scientific paper.

    It would be proper to seek scientific papers in relevant journals, for example the European Journal of Human Genetics, the American Journal of Physical Anthropology etc.
    Porphyrogenitos file on Serbs has not been confirmed with genes ..

    therefore these people do not exist today in the Balkans..

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    I used movement of haplogroup I from 2011 .. Here is map from year 2013..

    http://i.imgur.com/3JEYtfw.png?1

    For now it is clear that in the Balkans comes a group of people from one place (I2a) ... which concludes that on Balkans could only come Croats because historical records agree with that..

    It's for area of former Yugoslavia...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I very much doubt about white Croatia cause that is a myth,the name Croat-Hrvat is unexplained itself,note the name of Bulgarian ruler of Old Great Bulgaria that was in that area,Can you make your mind where it was then?Germany,Ukraine,Poland not located to this day more.Bulgarian theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group,in modern times Walter Pohl,As such, Croatian name would not be an ethnonym, but a social designation for a group of elite warriors which ruled,among others.The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne The ring was inscribed in Greek "Chouvr(á)tou patr(i)k(íou)", indicating the dignity of patrikios that he had achieved in the Roman world, In the Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers Kubrat is mentioned as Kvrt,see Kubrat ring inscriptions HRTV,the nobility of early Croatia could be link with him?
    Last edited by Milan; 21-03-16 at 01:07. Reason: spelling mistakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    I very much doubt about white Croatia cause that is a myth,the name Croat-Hrvat is unexplained itself,note the name of Bulgarian ruler of Old Great Bulgaria that was in that area,Can you make your mind where it was then?Germany,Ukraine,Poland not located to this day more.Bulgarian theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group,in modern times Walter Pohl,As such, Croatian name would not be an ethnonym, but a social designation for a group of elite warriors which ruled,among others.The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne The ring was inscribed in Greek "Chouvr(á)tou patr(i)k(íou)", indicating the dignity of patrikios that he had achieved in the Roman world, In the Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers Kubrat is mentioned as Kvrt,see Kubrat ring inscriptions HRTV,the nobility of early Croatia could be link with him?

    I do not know much about genetics of Bulgarians, Bulgarian I2a mostly originate in southern Poland and there may be connection with White Croats..First haplotype in Bulgarians is E1b, so Bulgarians are mixed population, in wider Carpathian, Ukrainian, Polish territory there are some Croats and their influence so it's possible connection with Bulgarians.

    If some Croats appear in Bulgaria does not mean that Croats coming from Bulgaria. Croats to Balkan come from southern Poland and western Ukraine and it is genetic fact, Serbs coming from a place neighboring White Croats to Greece and from Greece to west Balkans, unfortunately today in west Balkans does not exist mutation which proves mentioned arrival of Serbs.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You mix much genetics with ethnonym as well one people ethnogenesis as a whole,because nowadays Romania bear a name of Rome,doesn't mean their population resemble in genetics the early people of Rome.

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