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Thread: Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

  1. #101
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    White Croats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    White Croats?

    White Croats

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    The epithets "white" for Croats and their homeland Croatia, as well "great" (megali) for Croatia, is in relation to the symbolism used in ancient times. The epithet "white" is related to the use of colors for cardinal directions among Eurasian people. It meant "Western Croats", in comparison to lands where they lived before. The epithet "great" signified "subsequently populated" land, but also "old, ancient, former"[17] homeland for newly arrived Croats to the Roman province of Dalmatia.[18][19][20]
    According to this White Croatia wasn't the original land of Croats at all. Being called White means that they were already on a move to current location, West from original position. Perhaps even in current or very close to current location, West location, White location.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    According to this White Croatia wasn't the original land of Croats at all. Being called White means that they were already on a move to current location, West from original position. Perhaps even in current or very close to current location, West location, White location.
    Some think that term White means young because in the Slavic terminology white means young, old Croatia or Great Croatia was in the wider area of Carpathians, Ukraine and Poland and White Croatia is only her young remainder in southern Poland.

    However genetics will show migration in that area and
    after that we will be smarter because everything else is thinking which may or may not be accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    http://news-bar.rtl.hr/vijesti/regij...om-makedonskim
    Linguists agree: Croats and Serbs speak the same language - Macedonian!

    After their colleagues from other scientific fields published an amazing discovery, and linguists from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" finally completed extensive research on the languages ​​of the South Slavs. And their findings deny even Miroslav Krleza.

    - Croatian and Serbian are two separate languages, they are only dialects of the original language spoken by the South Slavs. Nearest the original South Slav Macedonians language so we can say that the Macedonian language is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, but in these countries only use a slightly different dialects. Just all these nations developed their little fun dialects - explained linguists in the conclusion of scientific work.

    In the study by experts from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" carefully examined the development of words paying special attention to the words that are not the same in Macedonia and one of the later formed dialects. A notable example of the word "ubavo", which, for example, Croats and Serbs took the word "good" in most of the Croatian or "good" in a large part of Serbia and Zagorje. At the same time the Macedonian words "beautiful" have given a new, completely opposite meaning by adding the letter G in front of it.

    - Our research has no errors. I used to think that the Serbian and Croatian two separate languages, but I was wrong. This study and its conclusions are irrefutable. Serbs and Croats speak the same language - Macedonian - briefly commented linguist Sanda Ham.

    Renowned linguists add an amendment regarding scientific article. They found that the Bulgarian language is not the same as Macedonian. With the help of historians have discovered that, for the dissemination of the old Slavic tribes Macedonians in Bulgaria probably gone and one Macedonian speech impairments so they Slavicized Bulgarians accepted fact Macedonian with a speech impediment, which today mostly in only slightly modified version.

    How are the results of this research persuasive, and it shows as numerous universities worldwide, but the day after the publication was renamed the Department of South Slavic languages ​​at the Department of Macedonian language.
    In the study by experts from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic"
    Franjo Arapovic is a Croatian basketball player.

    Your statement is from satirical Croatian portal.

  6. #106
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    Ethnic group
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    For now, this is https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ White Croatian mutation.

    All behind it are White Croatian origin by the male line.

    Ethnonyms Croat in toponymia..

    When it comes to toponyms with a motivated Croatian name outside of Croatia, it is worth mentioning the village Hrvati (Croats) near Tuzla and Kladnja (Bosnia), as well as the Gornji i Donji Hrvati (Upper and Lower Croats) near Zvornik (Bosnia) in Podrinje(border between Bosnia and Serbia) from where the last Catholics left in Srijem and Bačka (Serbia) at the beginning of the 18th century. Under Avala(hill) in Belgrade (capital city of Serbia) until the 19th century there was exist Rvatsko Selo (Croatian village) at the beginning of the 19th century. On the way between Novi Pazar on Sandzak (Serbia) and Leposavic in Kosovo lies village Hrvatska (Croatia), and village Hrvatske Mohve (Croatian Mohve, after 1945 the village was renamed to Vučje Lokve). Near Podgorica ( capital of Montenegro) there was village of Rvatska Stubica (Croatian Stubica). In the area of ​ former Red Croatia (Part of Bosnia and Hecegovina, Montenegro and part of Albania) Croatian name was quite common during the Ottoman rule. Thus Spičani (the inhabitants of the area between Budva and Bar(Montenegro)) called themselves Red Croats, Porta called them Croats and their leader Croat. The Croatian name in the toponym is also confirmed in Ohrid, Prespa and Bitola (Macedonia), near the Marathon Field(Greece) and not far from Mycenae(Greece),
    In all these areas there are also I2a types with mutation I-S17250.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 19-09-17 at 11:52.

  7. #107
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    Update..


    May 4, 2017
    In fact there is still only one known man who is CTS10228+ S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-, he has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland.



    https://i2aproject.blogspot.hr/2017/...621-and-i.html





    Subclade CTS10228 is ancestor of White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

  8. #108
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Croatia



    Stiljsko, southwestern Ukraine ..From VI. until the 9th century
    of this micro-region in intercourse
    rivers Barvinka, Ilovac, Kolodnica and
    The tooth, which is left by Dnjistra,
    gave insight into existence in IX. one
    of the largest in East Timor
    a region with a strong fortified Croatian
    city. Its fortified area
    it is almost 250 ha long and the length of the defenses
    the line reaches 10 km. Around
    on a site of 200 km2
    .
    there were numerous Croatian sites
    VI.-XI. (naseobine, gradina, grobi-
    what, cult centers). Found rich
    Archaeological material proves that it was old
    Croatian township functioned in
    time from the middle of the IX. to the beginning of XI.

    https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...ak_jezik=17599

    https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiljsko

  9. #109
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    Ethnic group
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    Ethnonym Croatian at Azov
    Among the names on the tablets are those of three men: Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Those names scholars interpret as anthroponyms of the Croatian ethnonym Hrvat.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais_Tablets

    For now around Azov there are this branches of I2a.

    : I2a2 'Dinaric-S' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196 probably S17250+ and PH908+

    I2a2 'Dinaric-Unassigned' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196

    I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>S17250>Y4882 (I-Y4882)

    I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>S17250>Y4882 (I-Y4882)

    I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>A6105 (I-A6105

    I2a2 'Dinaric-N' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196)

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

    The Tablet A is the larger and older inscription, dated to 175-211 AD
    If it is established that mentioned subclades come to the area of Azov before (175-211 AD) it would in fact mean that these subclades brought Croatian ethnonym to Azov and that Croatian ethnonym exist in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine before two thousand years.

    The personal names on the Tanais Tablets are considered as a proto-type of a certain ethnonym of a Sarmatian tribe those persons did descend from,] and as well today is generally accepted that the Croatian name is of Iranian origin and that can be traced to the Tanains Tablets.


    If it turns out that these I2a subclades came before (175-211 AD) to Azov and that there was no return migration(Croatian name) to White Croatia it would in fact mean that .. The origin hypotheses of the Croats, Iranian theory is not true.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._of_the_Croats

  10. #110
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In 1861, in the statistical data about population in Volhynia governorship released by Mikhail Lebedkin, were counted Horvati with 17,228 people.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

    Volýn) is a historic region in Central and Eastern Europe straddling Poland, Ukraine and Belarus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia

    We have one person with I2a I-S17250 in this area, Ukraine (id:YF01658)

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12911/

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

    Common male ancestor with today Croatians that person has in subclade I-S17250 ( (White Croatia) which in fact means that migration of White Croatians to Volhynia probably starts parallel with beginning of Slavic migration to Balkans or possible in a later period.

    It is also interesting to find Sungir 6 male in the same branch with Volhynia mutation.

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/

    DNA analysis shows that the medieval individual Sungir 6 (730-850 cal BP) belong to mtDNA Haplogroup W3a1 and Y-DNA Haplogroup I2a1b2.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sungir

    The calls show that Sungir 6 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1b2a1a1a1a3-A16681.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-for-sungir-6/

    That person (Sungir 6) also has male ancestor(I-S17250) in White Croatia.

  11. #111
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    For now in Southeast Poland we have subclade I-Y3120 an ancestor of White Croatian subclade I-S17250

    I-S20602

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196 (S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-) (I-S20602/YP196*)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 56266
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Gmina Dębica, Poland

    In this area we also have a ancestor of subclade I-Y3120

    I-CTS4002

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Disles B' (I-CTS4002*) P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ CTS4002+ FGC20479- CTS10228-
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: N113464
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Moskorzew, Poland
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS4002/

  12. #112
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    I was exploring surname Horvat in Europe and here's what we have for now.

    R1a

    Vaclav Charvat, b. 1894 Czech Republic R-L260 Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337

    Primož Hrovatin, b. 1780 Slovenia R-M512

    Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337

    Andras Endre Horvath, b.c.1920 Menfo,Gyor,Hungary Hungary R-M512

    Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905

    Kroboth Austria R-M512
    R1a1a1b1a1a (M458+ L260+)
    226920 Horvath Austria I2a-P37
    325181 Horvath Hungary R1b-M269
    N59833 Horvat Croatia I1-M253
    650445 Horváth Hungary J-FGC41825
    N49136 Horvat Slovenia R1a-M198
    28392 Horvat Slovakia R1a-M198
    314821 Horvath Hungary Q-M242
    328212 Horvath USA I2a2a-M223
    In the first group quoted we have a common ancestor R-L260 (4500 ybp) https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L260/ Horvat from Hungary has sub-branch YP256 and Horvat from Slovenia and Czech Republic has sub-branch YP1337 since these two mutations are same age(2400 ybp) they probably have same source somewhere in Poland.

    In the sub-branch YP1337 where iz Horvat from Czech Republic and Horvat from Slovenia there are two subclades in Croatia in Zadar County https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y132940/

    What are the options?

    Possible Croatian migration in the Turkish period.

    But there is also a possibility of White Croatian migration in the later period when R1a M458 is mixed with remaining White Croats in South Poland and then they migrate to the surrounding countries. Why?? Because Croats in Croatia have less R1a M458, and it is strange that in such wide area persons with surname Horvat has this R1a M458. Normally there is a possibility that in northwestern Croatia R1a M458 prevails before arrival of the Turks.

    In any case in the future we will know more.

  13. #113
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    Rovinj, Istria, Croatia

    R-M198

    Subgroup: >Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP29 5 (YP295 not tested; Big Y or Z280 SNP Pack needed)

    Name: Not Disclosed
    Mostar, Herzegovina

    Subgroup:>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP2 34>YP295>L366-B (Big Y needed)

    Name: Not Disclosed

    Kit Number: 251078
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Mostar, Bósnia-Herzegovina
    Gacko, eastern Herzegovina

    Subgroup:>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP2 34>YP295>L366-x1 (L366, more STRs and/or Big Y needed)

    Name: Not Disclosed

    Kit Number: 388203
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Гацко, Босна и Херцеговина
    These people are in the branch https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP235/

    It is interesting that in this branch there is a mutation R-Y17488 with the person in the Lviv province, southwestern Ukraine .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Oblast

    And person in southern Poland in Svetokriška.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A...ie_Voivodeship

    While in sub-branche R-YP295 there is a person in southwestern Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivskaya oblast.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_Oblast

    Probably that these persons are related(we'll see in the future), ie Croatian and Herzegovinian mutations probably have a source in this area of southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

  14. #114
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    Ethnic group
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    It is important to point out opinion of the Russian historian about the relationship between Croats and Serbs.

    Denis Jevgenjevic Alimov, 38-year-old associate professor of Slavic and Balkan universities in St. Petersburg, author of the recently published an intriguing book "Croat Etnogenesis"-......Question.. Can it be said that Croats and Serbs in those ancient times were one tribe, that they arrived together in these lands?........Answer...With great certainty we can argue that even in those ancient times Croats and Serbs were not one tribe. They are bordered with each other, permeated for centuries, but there is no evidence that they ever were a common tribe or clan.
    Croatian newspapers,


    https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanost...pleme/6175906/


    This is important to say from a historical point of view because genetics show that to Roman Dalmatia one tribe comes from one direction(Croats from White Croatia), Serbs are neighbors of White Croats who do not come to Roman Dalmatia, they come to Greece, they stay there for some time and from Greece they come to Roman Dalmatia, such genetic paths do not have inhabitants of today's Roman Dalmatia or Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosniaks etc.

    De Administrando Imperio ("On the Governance of the Empire") is the Latin title of a Greek work written by the 10th-century Eastern Roman Emperor Constantine VII.

    It should be known that the Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey, in a region called by Boïki, where their neighbor is Francia
    Now, after the two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, came as the refugee to Heraclius, the emperor of the Romaioi, and the same Emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a region in the theme of Thessalonica to settle in,
    Then, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart totheir own homes
    And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumians and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romaioi, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for theyhad expelled from those parts of the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries,
    Europe - Growth of Frankish Power, 481-814

    https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/h...er_481_814.jpg
    Last edited by hrvat22; 02-12-18 at 08:51.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is interesting that in Sanskrit exist and Croatian Slavic words, only candidate (for now) who brought those words to Sanskrit is haplotype R1a, Z93 branch.

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

    http://www.sutrajournal.com/sanskrit...y-james-cooper



    Sanskrit (/ˈsænskrɪt/; Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, translit. saṃskṛtam, pronounced [sə̃skr̩t̪əm] (listen)) is a language of ancient India with a history going back about 3,500 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

    This in fact means that archaic Croatian Slavic language was spoken before circa 4000 years ago and that part of words has remained unchanged to this day. It would be in time of Yamnaya culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture

    YFull tree speaks that branch Z93 is formed 5000 ybp.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    Branch L657 that came to India is formed 4200 ybp

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is interesting that in Sanskrit exist and Croatian Slavic words, only candidate (for now) who brought those words to Sanskrit is haplotype R1a, Z93 branch.
    Why is not possible that it was "always" in Slavic and Balto-Slavic vocabulary? It is not secret that there was perhaps in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage. And it's possible that both of them (Sanskrit and Slavic) picked up this words from ancient times, and no one "brought" it to Slavic. If anyone can prove that vulgar Slavic word "jebati" is derived from Sanskrit, then we should give him nobel prize. Since it's not derivation, but common inherited word from Proto-Indo-European language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    Why is not possible that it was "always" in Slavic and Balto-Slavic vocabulary? It is not secret that there was perhaps in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage. And it's possible that both of them (Sanskrit and Slavic) picked up this words from ancient times, and no one "brought" it to Slavic. If anyone can prove that vulgar Slavic word "jebati" is derived from Sanskrit, then we should give him nobel prize. Since it's not derivation, but common inherited word from Proto-Indo-European language.
    The striking similarities in Sanskrit and Russian indicate that during some period of history, the speakers of the two languages lived close together.
    The linguistically proven facts show the amazing affinity of Russian and Sanskritlanguages, obviously pointing out that these two languages must have lived closed together in some periods of antiquity.
    Only haplotype who could come from that common place to India is R1a Z93. Sanskrit is 3500 years old. There are many words which are similar in these languages and from time period when vocabulary was much smaller.

    Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language. As one of the oldest documented members of the Indo-European family of languages, Sanskrit holds a prominent position in Indo-European studies. It is related to Greek and Latin
    We see that migration of R1a Z93-Z94 is coming to Anatolia and Mitanni.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

    Mitanni is not far away from Greece. In Bulgaria we have ancient DNA
    Kairyaka Necropolis
    R1a1a1b2-F992
    1750-1625 BC
    The Y-SNP branch R1a-Z93 is defined by F992,

    https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1a-Z93

    In today Anatolia and Greece exist Z93, Z94 branches. So connection of Greek language with Sanskrit is probably through this connection or peoples which are coming from a common place.


    Anatolians were Indo-European peoples of the Near East identified by their use of the Anatolian languages.[1] These peoples were among the oldest Indo-European ethnolinguistic groups, one of the most archaic, because Anatolians were the first or among the first branches of Indo-European peoples to separate from the initial Proto-Indo-European community that gave origin to the individual Indo-European peoples
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_peoples

    The Anatolian languages are an extinct family of Indo-European languages that were spoken in Asia Minor (ancient Anatolia), the best attested of them being the Hittite language.
    Hittite (nešili) was the language of the Hittite Empire, dated approximately 1650–1200 BC,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

    Luwian was among the languages spoken during the 2nd and 1st millennia BC by groups in central and western Anatolia and northern Syria
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language

    I do not know when people with R1a Z93, Z94 exactly come to Anatolia (whether with Turks or earlier) but very likely part of them coming in time of beginning of these oldest Indo-European language in that area.

    First of all, Lithuanian is a very old language. It is related to Sanskrit (a classical language of India) Latin and Ancient Greek.
    http://www.lsk.flf.vu.lt/en/departme...nian-language/

    There is no direct migration from areas where they speak Sanskrit to Anatolia or elsewhere (Greek, Latin language) so their common bond is somewhere else. Possible is in the area of origin Z94 branch (Andronovo_culture).
    But original, first connection must be in Yamnaya culture because every quoted language is on its side of the world, only genetic link for all these languages is Yamnaya.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
    Last edited by hrvat22; 17-12-18 at 17:33.

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    Pre-Anatolian (before 3500 BCE)Pre-Tocharian
    Pre-Celtic and Pre-Italic (before 2500 BCE)
    [Pre-Germanic?]
    Pre-Armenian and Pre-Greek (after 2500 BCE)
    [Pre-Germanic?
    Pre-Balto-Slavic
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (2000 BCE)
    • Pre-Anatolian (4200 BCE)
    • Pre-Tocharian (3700 BCE)
    • Pre-Germanic (3300 BCE)
    • Pre-Celtic and Pre-Italic (3000 BCE)
    • Pre-Armenian (2800 BCE)
    • Pre-Balto-Slavic (2800 BCE)
    • Pre-Greek (2500 BCE)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-E...Indo-Europeans

    This is evolutionary tree of Indo-European branches from wikipedia.

    However if we follow YFull tree subclade R-Z94 is formed 4700 ybp, R-Z93 is formed 5000 ybp, R-Z645 is formed 5500 ybp and R-M417 is formed 8600 ybp.

    This means that common ancestor of Balto-Slavs and people who spoke original Sanskrit lived around 5500 ybp (R-Z645). It is evident that these Slavic words which exist in Sanskrit were spoken at least 5500 years ago. Because no one could bring these Slavic words to Sanskrit except people with mutation R-Z93,R-Z94.

    Normally there are also R1b subclades, their migraton and languages but I specifically talk about Slavic language and migration of R1a people.

    If YFull tree gives accurate information then Slavic words and language(among them and Croatian) exist in the time of the first Indo-European language (by wikipedia) "Pre-Anatolian" while on that scale Pre-Balto-Slavic is younger.

    It's interesting and Pre-Tocharian language.

    Tocharian, also spelled Tokharian(/təˈkɛəriən/ or /təˈkɑːriən/), is an extinct branch of the Indo-European language family. It is known from manuscripts dating from the 6th to the 8th century AD
    In that direction also migrate people with R-Z94 but according to Eupedia it is in time period around 2000 BC, but according to wikipedia and David Anthony Tocharian is old 3700 BCE. I do not know direction of R1b migration to that area so I can not say wich people and from where bring that language if is really true that is old 3700 BCE.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 18-12-18 at 10:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Only haplotype who could come from that common place to India is R1a Z93. Sanskrit is 3500 years old. There are many words which are similar in these languages and from time period when vocabulary was much smaller.
    Most likely, there was in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage of language. Then why is weird if some languages are common for Sanskrit and Slavic? (*jebati , sansk. "yabhati", *ljubiti , sansk. "lyubhati")... etc...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srbadija View Post
    Most likely, there was in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage of language. Then why is weird if some languages are common for Sanskrit and Slavic? (*jebati , sansk. "yabhati", *ljubiti , sansk. "lyubhati")... etc...)
    Where is that common stage, in which area?

    5000 ybp one tribe is divided and part of tribe goes to the east (Z93, Indo-Iran). This mean that Balto-Slavs bring their Slavic language from Yamnaya because there last time see "Indo-Iranians" ie. when they were in the same house and when lived their common ancestor (R-Z645 5500 ybp). Therefore from that time (5500 ybp) they have no more contacts, so they could not exchange words in that "later contact" or stage as you claim.

    Sanskrit is old 3500 years, this means that this stage (if it exists) of Lithuanian and Sanskrit language is somewhere in the time 4000 years ago in Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan? And from there Lithuanian language comes to Lithuania? For now I not seen R1a branches that come from Kazakhstan or that area to Lithuania.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 18-12-18 at 18:09.

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    Here are autosomal results with Croatian samples (fifteen persons), it is interesting to see how close autosomally Croatians are with southern Poland and southwest Ukrainian Lviv area.

    https://i.imgur.com/PLCF8ZL.png

    http://oi66.tinypic.com/jiys0h.jpg





    City which is supposed to be White Croatian capital Сті́льсько is in Lviv region so this is interesting.

  22. #122
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    In a new scientific work about Huns, Avars and Hungars in Hungaria are probably found Dinaric north branches or subclades in branch I-Y3120.
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

    Probable candidate is in branch I-Y4460 which in the present state(YFull) has a source somewhere in the Ukraine. Ancestor of mentioned I-Y4460 is somewhere in the area of southern Poland age around 2500 ybp (YFull).

    If on Azov exist ethnonym Croat from 3rd century it is possible that these ethnonym coming with these peoples (I-Y4460) which would mean that some Croatians exist in south Poland and in that time (2500 ybp).

    If we look at public DNA I2a database in the area of Azov exist and people in the branch I-Y4460, and in the future we will know the subbranches and the age of these subbranches and whether they (ancestors) were there in the time of the 3rd century.

    I-Y4460

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>A6105 (I-A6105)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 216083
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Zaporizhia, Zaporiz'ka oblast, Ukraine,
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Za...88!4d35.139567

    I-Y3118

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 93493
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Советская, Краснодарский край, Россия
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kr...9!4d39.7055977

    I-Y3118

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: 417289
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Сагуны, Воронежская обл., Россия
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vo...3!4d39.8644374

    I-Y3118

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
    Name: Not Disclosed
    Kit Number: N97830
    Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
    Marker Location: Ирмино, Луганская область, Украина
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lu...41!4d39.307815

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap


    Normally in this area exist and peoples with branch I-S17250 and they are also candidates for bringing Croatian name to Azov area but with regard to new scientific work if that is so then in Hungary (10th century) should be and I-S17250 peoples whether they come from direction of Ukraine with I-Y4460 peoples or from Poland.


    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

  23. #123
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    During 10th century according to the Primary Chronicle, Vladimir the Great (958 – 15 July 1015) founded the city of Belgorod in 991. In 992, he went on a campaign against Croats, most likely the White Croats that lived on the border of modern Ukraine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...hristian_reign


    Belgorod is a city in the Kiev area
    Bilhorod Kyivsky (Ukrainian: Білгород-Київський; Russian: Белгород Киевский, Belgorod Kievsky) was a legendary city-castle of Kievan Rus' that was located on the right bank of Irpin River (now located in Ukraine) and was mentioned in chronicles.
    The city was quite prominent in the 10th-12th centuries but ceased to exist after 1240 destruction of Kiev by the Mongols. Currently there is a small village of Bilohorodka, Kiev Oblast near the location of the defunct city.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod_Kievsky

    It is possible that this military campaign from 10th century is associated with arrival of these I2a north branches to Hungary.

    Interestingly source of branch I-Y4460* is in Kiev area.

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/


    We have this historical data which are also interesting.

    Vladimir's father was prince Sviatoslav of the Rurik dynasty. After the death of his father in 972, Vladimir, who was then prince of Novgorod, was forced to flee to Scandinavia in 976 after his brother Yaropolk had murdered his other brother Oleg and conquered Rus'. In Sweden, with the help from his relative Ladejarl Håkon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway, he assembled a Varangian army and reconquered Novgorod from Yaropolk. By 980, Vladimir had consolidated the Kievan realm from modern-day Belarus, Russia and Ukraine to the Baltic Sea and had solidified the frontiers against incursions of Bulgarian, Baltic tribes and Eastern nomads
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...hristian_reign

    On YFull tree in branch I-Y4460 we have people from Sweden, Finland, Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria(I2a project), Baltic Tribes(Lithuania, Estonia,Latvia(I2a project)), Eastern nomads( Russia, eastern Ukraine, possible Moldavia?) Poland, Greece.

    It is possible that this branch I-Y4460 has been expand in the time of Vladimir the Great.

    The Rus' provided the earliest members of the Varangian Guard. They were in Byzantine service from as early as 874. The Guard was first formally constituted under Emperor Basil II in 988, following the Christianization of Kievan Rus' by Vladimir I of Kiev. Vladimir, who had recently usurped power in Kiev with an army of Varangian warriors, sent 6,000 men to Basil as part of a military assistance agreement
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

    Bulgarian and Greek I-Y4460?









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    Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks
    I did not follow in detail MtDNA for Croats or White Croats but I can say it's basic MtDNA from which we can not find out too much.

    H11a is the oldest found H haplogroup in a European hunter-gatherer (forager), says the scientific report "Genetic History of Northern Europe". It's found in a male individual called Spiginas1 (ca. 4440–4240 BC) from Lithuania who belongs to the mesolithic Narva culture.
    https://www.geni.com/projects/H11a-M...rial-DNA/33944

    H11 is found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe, but also in Central Asia, where it might have been propagated by the Indo-European migrations (see below). H11a was identified in a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Narva culture in Lithuania
    • H11
      • H11a: found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe and in Central Asia / found in Mesolithic Lithuania, Middle Neolithic Germany and Megalithic Spain
      • H11b: found in Poland, Slovakia, Serbia and England
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

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