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Thread: Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

  1. #126
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    I started topic "Balkan genetic influence in Slavic peoples"https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post582082 in which I presented information that eastern and western Slavic peoples have a certain percentage of Balkan genetic if we follow public autosomal results. It is my opinion that "Balkans" in fact represents a common source ie White Croatian and some other older tribes in the area of the old Slavic homeland.

    It would actually proof that Balkan Croats coming from area of White Croatia and that a good part of Slavic peoples has same source. Since the Baltic genetic also occurs among Slavic peoples it proves Balto-Slavic connection which exists in language.

    Baltic and Slavic languages share several linguistic traits not found in any other Indo-European branch, which points to a period of common development.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

    When migrations of R1a peoples in that area (Baltic, Poland etc) are identified then we'll see from where is that connection or "common development".

  2. #127
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    Based on SNP analysis, the CTS10228 group is 2200 ± 300 years old. The group’s demographic expansion may have begun in Southeast Poland around that time, as carriers of the oldest subgroup are found there today.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0

    This information is known(from 2020), for now everything points to the fact that White Croatia or White Croats have originate in southeastern Poland. And that this is the place from which White Croats spread towards Roman Dalmatia but also towards Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.

    Archaeogenetic data are missing for the final conclusions, but I hope that they will begin to arrive.

  3. #128
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, I think this is true. I'm hungarian, but more than half of my ancestors were rusyns from the northeastern Carpathians. All of my ancestors (rusyns and hungarians too) lived Northeast Hungary, and I don't have any croatian ancestor.

    But my eurogenes K13 results:
    1 Croatian 3.12
    2 Moldavian 4.93
    3 Hungarian 7.46
    4 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.51
    5 South_Polish 8.39
    6 Ukrainian 8.62
    7 East_German 10.2
    8 Serbian 10.27
    9 Austrian 10.72
    10 Polish 11.57

    Mytrueancestry results:
    1. Croatian (6.337)
    2. Slovenian (8.138)
    3. Moldavian (9.529)
    4. Austrian (10.47)
    5. South_Polish (10.52)
    6. Ukrainian_Lviv (11.32)
    7. Hungarian (11.50)
    8. Ukrainian (12.31)

    So according to my opinion: my northeastern Carpathian DNA heredity is very close to the modern croatian, without any modern croatian link. It can only mean one thing. The croatians and the rusyns are also descendants of the white croats, the "harvati" people.

    Anyway I determined many Y chr haplogroup of my ancestors and according this, my ancestral hpg-s:

    E-V13-CTS9320-Z17107-A19238
    E-V13-Z5018-L241-A7065*
    I1-L22-FGC14412*
    I1-Z60-A378*
    I2a-L621-S17250-A1328*
    I2a-L621-S17250-A7358*
    I2a-L621-S17250-not completed yet
    I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118*
    I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118* (completely different family without any deeper common SNP)
    Q-L332-BZ3944*
    R1a-not completed yet
    R1a-L664-S2866*
    R1a-M458-L260-YP415*
    R1a-Z280-S24902-YP4090
    R1a-Z280-Z92-Y138015*
    R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP4706*
    R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP1701*
    R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP234*
    R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-PH864*
    R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-Y3219*
    R1b-U106-DF98-S22116*
    R1b-U106-L48-Z326-S21728*
    R1b-U152-S8172*

    I think many of them are common in the modern croatians.

  4. #129
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    Yes, when we look at most of autosomal results, many Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, etc. have the Balkan in a large percentage. In my opinion it is a common White Croatian but also a Proto-Slavic connection. Not a Balkan connection but a common connection in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. This is also your case.

    If we follow your Y dna, you don't really have any direct ties with Croatia(although there are branches of your Y dna in Croatia as well), but obviously you have an autosomal relationship with White Croatia. If we look specifically at yours Y dna markers they show older mutations, ie mutations that migrated earlier from White Croatia and which Croats have less. Y4460 and I-Y4882 Croats have less and this probably shows that migrations started even before main Croatian mutation I-PH908 occurred, and this would be two thousand years ago.

    Despite that, your results show the Croatian connection, which is significant, and in this is probable secret of the Balkans ancestry in autosomal results for the Slavic peoples. The common, old link is in proto-Slavic area ie White Croatia.


  5. #130
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    We have new archeogenetic data which may indicate direction of movements part of White Croats to Croatia. The place of this archeogenetic samples is Pohansko (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohans...%C5%A1t%C4%9B).

    For now there are several mutations of I2a I-S17250 branch. I-Y4882 I-Y5595 I-A815. These mutations belong to the former dinaric north branches. These branches of I2a predominate in Slovenia and northwestern Croatia. Also and R1a https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2608/ which exists in Croatia.

    This could point to two migrations of Croats. One from the direction of the Czech Republic to Slovenia and northwestern Croatia and for now one from the direction of southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine to Bosnia and southern Croatia. We'll be smarter when start arriving archeogenetic data for I2a branch I-PH908.
    It is interesting that De Administrando Imperio also indicates two places from where Croats coming.
    White Croats, which was allegedly beyond Bavaria, in both cases would have been much more towards the northwest and far away from Bohemia or southern Poland, where it must be expected the White Serbs and the White Croats lived. Therefore, how was it then possible that the same writer in two chapters of the same work thought differently about the geographical position of the White Croats?
    De Conversione Croatorum et Serborum, Tibor Živković, page 112.


    There are also some archaeological similarities with the area of Croatia and the Czech Republic.
    Close analogies for the cross applique from Ždrijaci can be found only in two localities from the Czech Republic. One cross of the application was found next to the fifth discovered church in Mikulčice, i.e. at the most important Great Moravian site and in the center of the Great Moravian State, in the pre-Great Moravian horizon of the 7th and 8th centuries. Another, typologically identical but fragmentary cross was discovered in children's grave 71 next to the church of St. Petra at the Budeč site
    Starohrvatsko groblje na Ždrijacu u Ninu
    (The Early Croatian Cemetery at Ždrijac in Nin)
    Belošević, Janko
    https://www.bib.irb.hr/335372

    D. Jelovina classifies this type of spur in the "second group" and marks it as an import, in which he agrees with the opinion of Z. Vinski. Analogies with this finding from the rest of Europe are not known. , nowhere is it about this type of decoration and this way of decorating. It is worth mentioning the princely tombs from Blatnica and Mikulčice which contain spurs with decoration in metopes. "
    Early medieval finds from the Brekinjova Kosa archaeological site (results of excavations in 2011 and 2015)https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...k_jezik=307466

    Mikulčice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikul%C4%8Dice
    Last edited by hrvat22; 25-04-21 at 08:30.

  6. #131
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    I am that Croat at yfull under Y2608*. Origins place in centar of old Croatia. Hope to see if this will match my results?

  7. #132
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    Yes, this branch should have connections with the White Croats. It will be interesting to follow development of the situation in your case. When something new occur, report it here.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    About Croat-Serb border
    For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:

    From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and Chlebena becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.
    Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).
    Porphyrogenitus mentions Χλεβίανα ie Livno in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    Διεμερίσθη οὖν ἡ χώρα αὐτῶν εἰς ζουπανίας ιαʹ, ἤγουν ἡ Χλεβίανα, ἡΤζένζηνα, τὰ Ἤμοτα, ἡ Πλέβα, ἡ Πεσέντα, ἡ Παραθαλασσία, ἡ Βρεβέρη, ἡ Νόνα,ἡ Τνήνα, ἡ Σίδραγα, ἡ Νίνα·καὶ ὁ βοάνος αὐτῶν κρατεῖ τὴν Κρίβασαν, τὴν Λίτζανκαὶ τὴν Γουτζησκά. Zemlja je njihova podijeljena u 11 županija: Hlijevansku (Hlebiana), Cetinsku(Tzenzina), Imotsku (Imota), Plivanjsku (Pleba), Pesentsku (Pesenta), Primorsku(Parathalassia), Bribirsku (Breberi), Nonsku (Nona), Kninsku (Tnena), Sidrašku(Sidraga), Ninsku (Nina); a ban njihov vlada Krbavom (Kribasan), Likom (Litzan)i Gackom (Goutziska).
    Their country is divided into 11 counties: Hlijevanska (Hlebiana), Cetinska (Tzenzina), Imotska (Imota), Plivanjska (Pleba), Pesentska (Pesenta), Primorska (Parathalassia), Bribirska (Breberi), Nonska (Nona), Kninska. Tnena), Sidraška (Sidraga), Ninska (Nina); and their ban ruled Krbava (Kribasan), Lika (Litzan) and Gacko (Goutzisk)
    Otherwise it is a political state in the time of the 10th century. Previously ie in other chapters Porphyrogenitus mentions Croats in Ilirik and Panonia.

  10. #135
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    As for Laconia, I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper).

    Hrvatsko je ime u toponimiji potvrđeno i na Ohridu, Prespanu i Bitoli, u blizini Maratonskoga polja i nedaleko od Mikene
    The Croatian name is also confirmed in toponymy in Ohrid, Prespan and Bitola, near the Marathon field and not far from Mycenae.
    It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytskyi_Oblast) not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    As for Laconia, I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper).
    Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.
    I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.



    I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.
    When you say "it is carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians" it is a historical context. I’m talking about the original context ie about the time of Slavic migration to the Greece.

    Have these branches of I2a been in Greece since the time of the Slavs or they come with Vlachs or Albanians we will know this in the future when these people research their genetics to the last branches. However, whether they came with Vlachs or Albanians, the source of their branches should still be in White Croatia but younger mutations coming from Albania with Vlachs or Albanians(assimilated into these communities) to Greece.

    But as I say we will know this in the future and this is why I am talking about the original state because from their haplotypes I cannot know whether they came with the Albanians or in the 7th etc century with the Slavs.

    We must always stick to what we know at the moment. By the way, if you have some scientific papers ie specific informations about migration of Vlachs or Albanians to that area of Greece, you can present it with a translation to see what it is about.

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    Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?

  14. #139
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    E-v22 in bosnia
    Interesting
    There was a lombard remain
    From pannonia late antiquity who was e-v22
    Maybe the e-v22 has a connection
    To nomads
    Or it arrived to bosnia in roman times

    P.s
    From time to time i look at serbian dna
    Forum and in there dna research :

    There are some e-v22 cases in some regions
    In serbia for example

    Maybe you can join the e-v22 dna project :
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v22/about
    A guy named richard is the administrator of it
    Last edited by kingjohn; 01-12-21 at 15:41.
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes,interesting and confusing 😀 I’m a member of the group. E-v22 are spread all over the world. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered😀 my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?
    Certainly, according to autosomal data connection with White Croats is visible. However, we do not know migration path of your male ancestors (E-v22) ie local Balkan migration or wider migration from the time of Slavic etc. migration. It would be interesting and explore your I-S17250 from maternal side.

    For northwest Bosnia(Krajina) there are several options regarding the origin of I-S17250. Maybe he has been there since the migration of Croats (7th-9th century) ie originally of Croatian origin, possible could be migration of indigenous people from Dalmatia (Croats) in Turkish times. There is also possibility of Vlach migration from Montenegro, Herzegovina, Dalmatia etc. but this should be seen in autosomal results.

    For E-v22 we have little information so we can’t say much. But as far as I can see(YFull), the same branch exists and in Poland, but it is also present in Turkey, Czech Republic, Albania etc. and for now all options are open.

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    Regarding Bosniaks in Krajina, majority are from Lika Croatia. They fled to Krajina during the Osman empire withdrawal from Lika area. There’s little written about this but many oral stories. Language and dialect are very similar between people who live there now and people in Krajina.

  18. #143
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    All options are open until you start researching the listed haplotypes. Then you will see where your male cousins on your mother's and father's side appear. What we could say at this point is that subclade I-S17250 has source probably in White Croats or ancestors of White Croats and that you have a male cousin on your mother's side there (​Southeastern Poland and southeastern Ukraine) like other Croats etc with this subclade.

    According to Pamjav et. al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans"

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Yes,interesting and confusing ������ I’m a member of the group. E-v22 are spread all over the world. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered������ my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.

    indeed
    from iberia in the west to mongolia in the east
    was even found in ancient dna from mongolia
    BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) late Xiongnu_sarmatian
    ( a person who was autosomally sarmatian though if my memory is correct)
    so the sources can be multiple
    as you say :
    pheonicians expansion
    but also
    roman influence - the romans were not such a great archers ( they used many auxiliaries from area which overlap with modern day lebanon and syria )
    and stationed them in dacia and britain and other roman teritories
    that could explain at least in part some e-v22 cases

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    I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvanas View Post
    I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?
    We are not talking about this theory. We are talking about genetics which confirms or not this theory. I'm from Croatia and as far as I know the Croats are presumed to be Slavs and this is the Slavic-White Croatian theory.

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    Thank you. Inform me if I can help with my DNA results somehow.

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    You or anyone else who knows more Croatian Ydna branches, etc feel free to help because we have little public information's.

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    It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by mavrodisdewbrod View Post
    This mutation could not be White Croatin origin ..because it is old two thousand years, five hundred or six hundred years older than existing time of White Croats..The truth is that this mutation is ancestor of White Croatian mutation but probably this tribe with I-CTS10228 at that time was called completely differented...
    Sent from my SM-G991B using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by kile View Post
    It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?

    Sent from my SM-G991B using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    Certainly a mutation I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 cannot be White Croatian origin because White Croats are not mentioned then. My opinion is that White Croatian mutations can be aged around 2000 ybp considering that Tanais Tablets are dated to the late 2nd–3rd century AD..

    However this connection of I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 with southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine probably shows and the source of the Croatian I2a branches and the possible origin area of the White Croats.

    We will probably know more in the future whether and some Croats arrive via the Czech Republic, etc.

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