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    Ethnic group
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    Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

    Historians often point to Bohemia, Silesia, Lesser Poland or Ukraine as the places where White Croatia happened to be located..



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia

    http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...y-of-Lviv.html



    . In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula

    So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
    originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
    extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
    course Date: Tue, 20 May 2014



    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1400615460



    Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group


    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap


    I2a movement through history

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110722...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    Another haplotype among Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now I do not know source of same .... probably is in southern Poland but it remains to be determined ..

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...5UvaRd3c&hl=en

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap


    For now Croatian genetics shows that most of its male population comes from White Croatia to Croatia..This means that file of Porphyrogenitus from 10th century which tells about arrival of Croats is true...It confirmed and Chronicle of Priest of Duklja from 12th century..and Historia Salonitana 13th century...



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Salonitana



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroni...iest_of_Duklja

    http://www.academia.edu/1231887/De_C...um_et_Serborum

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    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...783#post105783

    The newly discovered subclade, marked by A2512 (Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

    The blog post makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134.

    In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton, with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.

    But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs per se, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

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    I-CTS10228 (age: 2010 ybp)...

    This mutation could not be White Croatin origin ..because it is old two thousand years, five hundred or six hundred years older than existing time of White Croats..The truth is that this mutation is ancestor of White Croatian mutation but probably this tribe with I-CTS10228 at that time was called completely differented...

    I-Y3548 (age: 1458 ybp)

    Yes, only this mutation could be White Croatian origin...

    Since behind other mutations exist Croats not just behind main mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 supports the fact that mutation I-Y3548 is White Croatian origin....

    It is interesting that after this White Croatian mutation exist mutations in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Bulgaria etc..This means that from Great Croatia migration went in several directions...

    It is also interesting that behind Croatian main mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 exist mutation in Czech Republic brought by Croats who fled from the Turks...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, already long time ago I posted this: https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

    But - if I remember correctly - you did not believe me back then. This only confirms what I wrote back then.

    Serbs/Sorbs/Sarbs/Surbs (these are synonyms, e.g. Sorbs were originally called "Surbi" in Latin) also came from the north.

    Many toponyms located in Poland prove it (Serby, Sarbinowo, Sarbsko, Sarbia, etc. - just to mention a few).

    I2a movement through history
    This map shows that I-M170 originally came into Europe from Asia Minor.

    More likely it crossed the Caucasus and then above the Black Sea went westward.

    That was after splitting from IJ - and I went north, while J stayed south of the Caucasus.

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    Unfortunately, the names of Serbs in Poland and elsewhere have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs because according to documents on Balkan Serbs, they come as Bojke and later in Greece are named as Serbs...These terms are related to Lusatian Sorbs which still exist in this area and have no genetic connection with Balkan Serbs ...

    Which proves that there is no migration of people from eastern Germany to Balkans and genetics completely crashes Porphyrogenitus and his story about arrival of Serbs...

    Obviously this is a fictional story based on the state in the 10th century when Serbs as a rule exist in the Balkans...

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    Couple of important things you omitted, before making such an important conclusions:


    1. You believe Porphyrogenitus' book when he writes about Croats, but not when he writes the same thing about Serbs.


    2. You're making conclusions about Serbian migration (or non migration) by comparing current distribution with movements from 15 centuries ago. If you want to prove that today's Serbs didn't come from Boika in 6th century, you'd have to know genetic structure of Boika from 5-6th century. We should also compare various ancient DNA material, for example: (source)

    "The Emperor Constantine III (641) transferred a part of the Slavs from the Balkans (Vardar region) to Asia Minor. There these migrants founded the city of Gordoservon, the name of which gives grounds for supposing that among its founders there were Serbs The city was also known under names Gordoserbon and Servochoria."


    3. Considering toponymy, it is obvious that modern Serbia was inhabited by tribe of Moravians. As you know Serbs and Croats were just one among many tribes who came on Balkan, and to simplify it down to only those 2 tribes is not correct.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...vic_tribes.png

    Šafarik even deemed that 'Serbs' was the oldest generic name of the Slavs (source), which makes things even more complicated if it's true. To get the idea of probable Balkan Croatian and Serbian genetic structure one should probably sample skeletons from 7-9th century:

    Serbs:"In the Balkans, Serbs settled first around rivers Tara, Ibar, Drina and Lim"
    Croats:"The Croats colonized Nin at the beginning of the 7th century. The first Croatian state community was formed at the end of the 8th and beginning of the 9th century. Nin was the first Croatian royal town,with its period of glory being from the 7th to the 13th centuries."


    4. There is a possibility that Croats and Serbs were already intermixed even before they migrated on Balkans.

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    Ike
    You believe Porphyrogenitus' book when he writes about Croats, but not when he writes the same thing about Serbs.
    I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia.


    If you want to prove that today's Serbs didn't come from Boika in 6th century, you'd have to know genetic structure of Boika from 5-6th century. We should also compare various ancient DNA material, for example:
    It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.

    Considering toponymy, it is obvious that modern Serbia was inhabited by tribe of Moravians. As you know Serbs and Croats were just one among many tribes who came on Balkan, and to simplify it down to only those 2 tribes is not correct.
    Croats have hundreds of toponyms and hydronyms that are brought from White Croatia..

    Šafarik
    He spoke before genetics, if he would speak today he certainly be based on genetics.


    There is a possibility that Croats and Serbs were already intermixed even before they migrated on Balkans.
    Prove with genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia.




    It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.



    Croats have hundreds of toponyms and hydronyms that are brought from White Croatia..



    He spoke before genetics, if he would speak today he certainly be based on genetics.




    Prove with genetics.
    which are the hydronyms?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    which are the hydronyms?

    http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg

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    Many of those toponyms existed very much earlier,do research yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia.
    Did you even read paragraph 2?

    It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.
    Of course it does. If it doesn't the thread starter wouldn't have try to elaborate it in post #5.

    He spoke before genetics, if he would speak today he certainly be based on genetics.
    That thing has nothing to do with genetics.

    Prove with genetics.
    I am not trying to prove anything, but to say that genetics still didn't prove anything alike to what you claim.

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    These terms are related to Lusatian Sorbs which still exist in this area and have no genetic connection with Balkan Serbs
    Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?

    Of course they do. All Slavs have genetic connections with each other.

    They share similar haplogroups and subclades, at different frequencies.

    Which proves that there is no migration of people from eastern Germany to Balkans
    Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.

    One group went from Poland to Germany, the other one from Poland to Balkans.

    according to documents on Balkan Serbs, they come as Bojke
    As what? A Slavic-speaking group called Bojko lives in Poland & Ukraine as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko


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    Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?
    Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280 CTS3402..Common ancestor of Lusatian Sorbs and Serbs is old four thousand seven hundred years R-Z282 (age: 4776 ybp)

    Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.


    Serbs are never live in Poland at least not in southeastern Poland..


    As what? A Slavic-speaking group called Bojko lives in Poland & Ukraine as well
    Bojkos haplotipes are different from Croatian





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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280
    This is not true, Sorbs have both types.

    Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280.

    In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.

    Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.

    In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.

    Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.

    For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.

    Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?

    It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.

    I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names).

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    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
    SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade

    In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


    The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
    It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855

    S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:

    • Z16971 (probably White Croats descendants),
    • Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
    • A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).


    Y4460 is divided further into two subclades:


    • Z16973 with subbranch Y3118 and
    • S8201 & Y8942
      second one with a subclade:
    • Y13498

    Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades.
    But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
    SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade

    In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


    The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
    It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855

    S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:

    • Z16971 (probably White Croats descendants),
    • Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
    • A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).


    Y4460 is divided further into two subclades:


    • Z16973 with subbranch Y3118 and
    • S8201 & Y8942
      second one with a subclade:
    • Y13498

    Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades.
    But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.


    Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group.


    Ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 is mutation I-Y3548

    http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/

    That White Croatian mutation is ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882, I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971. Therefore they can not be Drevlyans, Dregoviches or Moravians...Only after breakup of White Croats...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is not true, Sorbs have both types.

    Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280.

    In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.



    Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.

    In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.

    Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.

    For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.

    Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?

    It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.

    I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names).

    Which type M458 and Z280...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?

    Of course they do. All Slavs have genetic connections with each other.

    They share similar haplogroups and subclades, at different frequencies.



    Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.

    One group went from Poland to Germany, the other one from Poland to Balkans.



    As what? A Slavic-speaking group called Bojko lives in Poland & Ukraine as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

    I want to ask you what is your prove to support this,apart from that what is your prove that then in Polish lands when Sclavenes made first appearance was spoken Slavic?Poland history started In 966 AD, Duke Mieszko I of the Piast dynasty adopted Western Christianity if im not mistaken,Sclavenes are first mentioned in 540 A.D. in tottaly different context,4 centuries earlier! who were the Sclavenes has yet to be discovered,without imagining or even claiming something that made appearance 4 centuries earlier and history of Sclavenes which belong to South Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    I want to ask you what is your prove to support this,apart from that what is your prove that then in Polish lands when Sclavenes made first appearance was spoken Slavic?Poland history started In 966 AD, Duke Mieszko I of the Piast dynasty adopted Western Christianity if im not mistaken,Sclavenes are first mentioned in 540 A.D.4 centuries earlier! who were the Sclavenes has yet to be discovered,without imagining or even claiming something that made appearance 4 centuries earlier and history of Sclavenes which belong to South Slavs.
    The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html

    Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them fully preserve their genetics and have the most percentage of R1a haplotypes from all Slavs ...That any movement of Lusatian Sorbs was to Serbia it would be seen today in the genes as can be seen for Croats who come from White Croatia to Croatia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html

    Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them fully preserve their genetics and have the most percentage of R1a haplotypes from all Slavs ...That any movement of Lusatian Sorbs was to Serbia it would be seen today in the genes as can be seen for Croats who come from White Croatia to Croatia..
    Why someone need a movement from Lusatia?why someone should come from Lusatia to be Serb?Serbinum was mentioned in Bosnia since Ptolemy,Herodotus mention names as such many other ancient historians,it is find from Germany,Caucasus,Egypt,Balkans,India,Aghanistan.It is ancient name,apart from that i care less for Serbs or Croats if you think i will argue over your idea that all I2a din are white Croats,cause it is ridicoulous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    Serbinum was mentioned in Bosnia since Ptolemy or earlier.

    What does this have to do with arrival of Croats from White Croatia..

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    You are guided by book that is considered didactic by contemprorary researchers,many even consider it a forgery although don't say that with those words,apart from that they all write 3-4 centuries after this developments if contain any truth,to compare Administrando de imperio and Chronicles of Priest of Dukla,Historia Solitana which are also dismissed i guess you have never read those books,our sources always considered the Slavic speaking people native to the Balkan peninsula, two of those book in fact mention coming of Goths but warriors not migrant farmers,who speak the same language with us but came much earlier then "Slavic migration" and if you want to do research on Goths that's another thing,the only name they are missquoted by ancient historians are the Thracian Getae and the Sclavenes (South Slavs),neither of those mythical lands you mentioned,which in fact didn't existed as polity when Sclavenes came to existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    You are guided by book that is considered didactic by contemprorary researchers,many even consider it a forgery although don't say that with those words,apart from that they all write 3-4 centuries after this developments if contain any truth,to compare Administrando de imperio and Chronicles of Priest of Dukla,Historia Solitana which are also dismissed i guess you have never read those books,our sources always considered the Slavic speaking people native to the Balkan peninsula, two of those book in fact mention coming of Goths but warriors not migrant farmers,who speak the same language with us but came much earlier then "Slavic migration" and if you want to do research on Goths that's another thing,the only name they are missquoted by ancient historians are the Thracian Getae and the Sclavenes (South Slavs),neither of those mythical lands you mentioned,which in fact didn't existed as polity when Sclavenes came to existence.
    Genetics show that Croats coming from White Croatia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Genetics show that Croats coming from White Croatia..
    No it doesn't. It comes from what you suspect was White Croatia some 1500 years ago.

    Do you have any 10th century samples from Libice?
    "For a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libice_nad_Cidlinou


    You should look for White Croats genetics there better:
    https://glosbe.com/sh/en/hrbat


    Bile Karpaty.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    No it doesn't. It comes from what you suspect was White Croatia some 1500 years ago.

    Do you have any 10th century samples from Libice?
    "For a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libice_nad_Cidlinou


    You should look for White Croats genetics there better:
    https://glosbe.com/sh/en/hrbat


    Bile Karpaty.jpg

    http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

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