Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

[hrvat22]

Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?

Certainly, according to autosomal data connection with White Croats is visible. However, we do not know migration path of your male ancestors (E-v22) ie local Balkan migration or wider migration from the time of Slavic etc. migration. It would be interesting and explore your I-S17250 from maternal side.

For northwest Bosnia(Krajina) there are several options regarding the origin of I-S17250. Maybe he has been there since the migration of Croats (7th-9th century) ie originally of Croatian origin, possible could be migration of indigenous people from Dalmatia (Croats) in Turkish times. There is also possibility of Vlach migration from Montenegro, Herzegovina, Dalmatia etc. but this should be seen in autosomal results.

For E-v22 we have little information so we can’t say much. But as far as I can see(YFull), the same branch exists and in Poland, but it is also present in Turkey, Czech Republic, Albania etc. and for now all options are open.

 

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Regarding Bosniaks in Krajina, majority are from Lika Croatia. They fled to Krajina during the Osman empire withdrawal from Lika area. There’s little written about this but many oral stories. Language and dialect are very similar between people who live there now and people in Krajina.

 

[hrvat22]

All options are open until you start researching the listed haplotypes. Then you will see where your male cousins on your mother's and father's side appear. What we could say at this point is that subclade I-S17250 has source probably in White Croats or ancestors of White Croats and that you have a male cousin on your mother's side there (​Southeastern Poland and southeastern Ukraine) like other Croats etc with this subclade.

According to Pamjav et. al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans"

 

[kingjohn]

Yes,interesting and confusing ������ I’m a member of the group. E-v22 are spread all over the world. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered������ my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.

indeed
from iberia in the west to mongolia in the east
was even found in ancient dna from mongolia
BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) late Xiongnu_sarmatian
( a person who was autosomally sarmatian though if my memory is correct)

BUR002 - Tamiryn Ulaan Khoshuu (Burkhan Tolgoi), Arkhangai

E-BY7758 (E1b)

U2e1

1955

Mongolia - Late Xiongnu

so the sources can be multiple
as you say :
pheonicians expansion
but also
roman influence - the romans were not such a great archers ( they used many auxiliaries from area which overlap with modern day lebanon and syria )
and stationed them in dacia and britain and other roman teritories
that could explain at least in part some e-v22 cases

 

[Sylvanas]

I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?

 

[hrvat22]

I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?

We are not talking about this theory. We are talking about genetics which confirms or not this theory. I'm from Croatia and as far as I know the Croats are presumed to be Slavs and this is the Slavic-White Croatian theory.

 

[Sylvanas]

Thank you. Inform me if I can help with my DNA results somehow.

 

[hrvat22]

You or anyone else who knows more Croatian Ydna branches, etc feel free to help because we have little public information's.

 

[kile]

It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?

This mutation could not be White Croatin origin ..because it is old two thousand years, five hundred or six hundred years older than existing time of White Croats..The truth is that this mutation is ancestor of White Croatian mutation but probably this tribe with I-CTS10228 at that time was called completely differented...

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[hrvat22]

It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Eupedia Forum mobile app

Certainly a mutation I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 cannot be White Croatian origin because White Croats are not mentioned then. My opinion is that White Croatian mutations can be aged around 2000 ybp considering that Tanais Tablets are dated to the late 2nd–3rd century AD..

However this connection of I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 with southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine probably shows and the source of the Croatian I2a branches and the possible origin area of the White Croats.

We will probably know more in the future whether and some Croats arrive via the Czech Republic, etc.

 

[hrvat22]

In a new scientific work about Huns, Avars and Hungars in Hungaria are probably found Dinaric north branches or subclades in branch I-Y3120.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Probable candidate is in branch I-Y4460 which in the present state(YFull) has a source somewhere in the Ukraine. Ancestor of mentioned I-Y4460 is somewhere in the area of southern Poland age around 2500 ybp (YFull).

If on Azov exist ethnonym Croat from 3rd century it is possible that these ethnonym coming with these peoples (I-Y4460) which would mean that some Croatians exist in south Poland and in that time (2500 ybp).

If we look at public DNA I2a database in the area of Azov exist and people in the branch I-Y4460, and in the future we will know the subbranches and the age of these subbranches and whether they (ancestors) were there in the time of the 3rd century.



https://www.google.com/maps/place/Z...:0xe1878ebf93796a8c!8m2!3d47.8388!4d35.139567



https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...102a3a583f19580!8m2!3d45.6415289!4d39.7055977



https://www.google.com/maps/place/V...102a3a583f19650!8m2!3d50.8589713!4d39.8644374



https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...x84dcec6753643bb8!8m2!3d48.574041!4d39.307815

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap


Normally in this area exist and peoples with branch I-S17250 and they are also candidates for bringing Croatian name to Azov area but with regard to new scientific work if that is so then in Hungary (10th century) should be and I-S17250 peoples whether they come from direction of Ukraine with I-Y4460 peoples or from Poland.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

More detailed results for I2a genetics (Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin) have arrived and there we have three I-Y4460 and one I-Y4882. It is genetics which comes with conquerors from Ukrainian territory(from east). That could mean at this point that ancestors of these peoples which originated in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine probably bring Croatian ethnonym to the wider Ukrainian area ie 2000 ybp, and probably Sarmatian population receives that ethnonym from the west.

If we assume that ancestors of I-Y4460 migrated before occurrence of mutation I-S17250 this would mean that Croatian ethnonym(Croat etc) among that population(southeastern Poland, southwestern Ukraine, eastern Ukraine) exists at least 2200 ybp.

 

[hrvat22]

MyTrueAncestry has a White Croatian mark for genetic data. The main source is sample of Early Medieval Trogir Croatia 718 AD and Byzantine Period Outlier Marmara Ilipinar Anatolia 750 AD

Given that the mentioned White Croatian persons had to live for some time in new areas it is very likely that the migration from White Croatia began during the 7th century. We see and wider migration. Probably from Slovenia all the way to Turkey. Greece for sure.

However, this is not yet a confirmation because we need archaeogenetic samples from the Carpathians. The problem is that the Slavs burned the dead, so there probably won't be many of those samples.

The dating of this grave in Trogir is interesting because 718 AD is very close to time of Constantine V (720 - 768 A.D.) and his gold coins found in medieval Croatian graves.