Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Cardial aDNA from Spain - 7400 ybp

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Arame's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    182
    Points
    5,963
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,963, Level: 22
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Armenia



    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Cardial aDNA from Spain - 7400 ybp

    New aDNA from Spain.

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...sv181.abstract

    A common genetic origin for early farmers from Mediterranean Cardial and Central European LBK cultures

    The spread of farming out of the Balkans and into the rest of Europe followed two distinct routes: an initial expansion represented by the Impressa and Cardial traditions, which followed the Northern Mediterranean coastline; and another expansion represented by the LBK tradition, which followed the Danube River into Central Europe. While genomic data now exist from samples representing the second migration, such data have yet to be successfully generated from the initial Mediterranean migration. To address this, we generated the complete genome of a 7,400 year-old Cardial individual (CB13) from Cova Bonica in Vallirana (Barcelona), as well as partial nuclear data from five others excavated from different sites in Spain and Portugal. CB13 clusters with all previously sequenced early European farmers and modern-day Sardinians. Furthermore, our analyses suggest that both Cardial and LBK peoples derived from a common ancient population located in or around the Balkan Peninsula. The Iberian Cardial genome also carries a discernible hunter-gatherer genetic signature that likely was not acquired by admixture with local Iberian foragers. Our results indicate that retrieving ancient genomes from similarly warm Mediterranean environments such as the Near East is technically feasible.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    15-07-13
    Location
    Ticino
    Posts
    138
    Points
    5,103
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,103, Level: 21
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 447
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A7992

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Unluckily, they couldn't have Y-dna...

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,825
    Points
    249,460
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,460, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I went to the Supplementary Info first since sometimes that's where you find the guts of the paper.

    This is their PCA of ancient and modern populations. I have problems with PCAs, especially when they include ancient samples, for all sorts of reasons: it only captures two dimensions, the ancient samples are "projected" onto the plot, even when they're not projected, the plot can be altered depending on which and how many ancient samples are chosen, etc.

    With all those caveats, here it is. :)

    Attachment 7408

    Sardinians are, as predicted, overlapping some of the EN samples.

    However, as to the MN, doesn't this seem rather contrary to what has been stated by bloggers etc.? The MN, at least by this measure, is not very different from the EN, is it?*

    More generally, if it turns out from the upcoming Lazaridis et al paper that these Early Neolithic people are a pretty good match for the Near Eastern people of 8000 BC, then there have been significant changes to the genomes of the people of the Near East. They have been pulled significantly east, but also south. I wonder how much of the southern movement is the result of newer SSA? Those alleles are so significantly different that even 10% could make a big difference in terms of a PCA. (The Bedouin are different. Look how far they pull away. This is why I don't like the Allentoft admixture results. The Bedouin are not a good proxy for the early farmers who came to Europe. This is what led Lazaridis astray too, in suggesting that perhaps there was a 20% admixture with HGs in Europe. They did also say, of course, it could just be a few percent.)

    The closest populations would seem to be the Druse and the Lebanese, but even they are south, and east of, say, southern Europeans. In terms of the southern dimension, the EN seem to be slightly closer to the Italians and MN slightly closer to the Iberians and French and Hungarians and other central Europeans? That's overstating it perhaps, since Northern Italians and Tuscans seem to be on the same "southern" line as Oetzi, Baalberg and a Copper Age sample. It's the Sicilians who seem to be on the same line as the EN samples?

    In terms of an "eastern" (Yamnaya?) "Indo-European" pull, the Iberians seem to have the least of it.

    Well, these are just my preliminary impressions. When I have more time, I'll have to look at it again. I also haven't read the areas of the paper where this is discussed, but I often find that I don't always agree with the conclusions of the authors, so, no harm, no foul. :)

    Ed.* I don't want to imply there are no differences, because there are, but it's a smaller difference than I imagined going by internet chatter.
    Last edited by Angela; 04-09-15 at 01:44.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,825
    Points
    249,460
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,460, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Along with the PCA I posted above, the pigmentation data and LT data is interesting. "At he phenotypic level, CB13 has derived alleles for the SLC24A5 pigmentation genes (Tables S6-8) and appears heterozygous for the SLC45A2 skin pigmentation gene (Tables S6-7), both associated with light skin in Europeans. The same light skin-related genotypic combination is also seen in several Early, Middle and Late Neolithic individuals from Hungary (Gamba et al.2014). Despite the uncertainties associated with the low coverage, the Hirisplex pigmentation prediction (Walsh et al.2013) yields the highest probably of this individual having dark hair (0.679). Due to a combination of missing (including the critical rs1281382 SNP for blue eyes) and heterozygous sites at the OCA2/HERC2 haplotype (Table S9), the colour of the iris could not be conclusively determined.

    At the rs4988235 site (which has a regulatory effect on the LCT gene), CB13 shows the ancestral variant associated with the inability to digest milk during adulthood (Itan et al 2009)."

    I would think this is yet more evidence that it is highly unlikely that the Indo-Europeans or the steppe migrations in general brought light skin pigmentation to Europe, since these Cardial farmers were derived not only for SLC24A5, but for SLC42A5.

    If they moved to Spain by sea from the Balkans, they either picked these alleles up there, or they already had one or both in Anatolia. Hopefully the ancient Anatolian genomes will clarify matters.

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-05-12
    Posts
    111
    Points
    6,097
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,097, Level: 23
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 453
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Country: Canada



    I thought the fact that light skin was mostly spread by Neolithic farmers was unanimous by now? I think Siberian tribes played a role too, but not as much.Very light skin, however, is a more recent phenomenon it seems that seems to date post-Neolithic, that emphasized the SLC mutations.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Just more Early Neolithic DNA to add to the bucket list. This is nothing new(I have tons of respect for the intelligence and hard work of the authors).

    Maybe in the next several days I'll have Part 2 of my first post for my blog mtDNA Atlas. In that post our look for shared haplotypes between pops inclu. Ancient), founder effects, and try to find diversity in mtDNA H(Most popular and least defined, some studies tested SNPs of each major subclade in West Asia and Europe). This new high coverage mtDNA from Cardial are under typical modern clades.

    No one can agrue the Hs(H4a1a, H3) in these Cardiel people is of Mesolithic origin. They very clearly were brought over from Turkey, East Meditreaen area.

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,825
    Points
    249,460
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,460, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    I thought the fact that light skin was mostly spread by Neolithic farmers was unanimous by now? I think Siberian tribes played a role too, but not as much.Very light skin, however, is a more recent phenomenon it seems that seems to date post-Neolithic, that emphasized the SLC mutations.
    It was approaching consensus, I think, after Lazaridis et al and Gamba et al came out. However, the finding that the EHG and some of the SHG were derived for SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 led some people to conclude that "fair" pigmentation was spread by people carrying that ancestry, i.e. Indo-Europeans, even the Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were rather "mixed".

    As to why Stuttgart, and the Hungarian Neolithic farmers, and Oetzi carried derived versions, perhaps the theory was that there was some diffusion from the steppe into central Europe ahead of the actual steppe migrations? I don't know.

    Anyway, that seems less likely to me now as a possibility given these results, but we'll know for sure when we have ancient dna from the early Neolithic in the Balkans and in Anatolia.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I would think this is yet more evidence that it is highly unlikely that the Indo-Europeans or the steppe migrations in general brought light skin pigmentation to Europe, since these Cardial farmers were derived not only for SLC24A5, but for SLC42A5.
    I added CB13 to my Pre-Historic West Eurasian Phenotype:

    Steppe had just as much SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 as EEF. Both are sources. In Basque for example where there's little Steppe ancestry, EEF is the main source obviously. Ultimately both might be mostly of a Near Eastern origin, but EHG could be another source.

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    More generally, if it turns out from the upcoming Lazaridis et al paper that these Early Neolithic people are a pretty good match for the Near Eastern people of 8000 BC, then there have been significant changes to the genomes of the people of the Near East. They have been pulled significantly east, but also south. I wonder how much of the southern movement is the result of newer SSA? Those alleles are so significantly different that even 10% could make a big difference in terms of a PCA. (The Bedouin are different. Look how far they pull away. This is why I don't like the Allentoft admixture results. The Bedouin are not a good proxy for the early farmers who came to Europe. This is what led Lazaridis astray too, in suggesting that perhaps there was a 20% admixture with HGs in Europe. They did also say, of course, it could just be a few percent.)
    Both Allentoft and Haak show a strange thing in their ADMIXTURE runs. Once Bedouin becomes a separate instance the amount of EEF is pushed up in all other samples. I really can't explain.

    However, another strange thing is in the f3 stats on page 23. Baltics seem more related than Bulgarians, Ukranians and what not. Also Loschbour is even more related than the French!


  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Another thing: In the Supplementary info figure S6 La Brana seems more related to CB13 than for instance Loschbour, but also Stuttgart! Isn't that Treemix related, and does Treemix include IBD's?

    EDIT: I think I entirely missed the point of those SE graphs. But the oddness of that F3 stat remains.

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    I thought the fact that light skin was mostly spread by Neolithic farmers was unanimous by now? I think Siberian tribes played a role too, but not as much.Very light skin, however, is a more recent phenomenon it seems that seems to date post-Neolithic, that emphasized the SLC mutations.
    SHG had it as well which implies it was spread by both.

    Begging the question where did it originate and where was it transferred?

    If farmer to northern Eurasia then farmer encroachment onto the steppe explains it simply enough.

    If northern Eurasia to farmer then that leads to a mystery of where it was transferred - either the farmers started out somewhere adjacent to northern Eurasia or northern Eurasians somehow arriving where the farmers were?

    (And as SHG had it I think that implies it was northern Eurasia to farmer somehow.)
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 05-09-15 at 01:57. Reason: clarity

  12. #12
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    So does this mean the Basal Eurasian in the Bedouin is in the HGs not the farmers?

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Concerning this MN farmer of Spain you have some good pieces in secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/ on the Net, with some "maps". I thank him by the way.
    the point is the HG element in farmers seems heavier in MidN than in EarlyN and that this element was closer to Hungary HG than to Western HG like La Brana, if I red well (I did it quickly). it push me to bleieve the most of foragers DNA was piicked in S-E Europe and not in Near-Eastern, or that the first HG of Anatolia was augmented in Balkans (what physical anthropology seems confirming).
    I 'll give my point (if it is different from others) abit later. Good reading!

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    @MOESAN

    Thanks. This is the F3 stats I talked about. Could it mean that Baltics are more related to KO1 than WHG? Also Loschbour is oddly high in that list.


  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    This is the D stats from which they conclude that the WHG admixture in EEF if more akin to KO1 than La Brana and thus must have been picked up in the East:


  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    @MOESAN

    Thanks. This is the F3 stats I talked about. Could it mean that Baltics are more related to KO1 than WHG? Also Loschbour is oddly high in that list.

    we see Haak LBK_En in central Germany comprising of Ydna of G2a and T1a with Gamba's Hungarians are the same and that Gamba's hungarians and remedello with marker I2a are the same. We can state that the ancient hungarian area was pannonia ............this triangle of Pannonia, north-italy and central germany shows that the same people must have come from the same area in the east..........I doubt very much it is the steppe, more like Northern-Anatolia

    all these samples below are Neolithic mtdna proven by Genbank ( you cannot get better than a genbank study ) and all appear (plus extras) in the areas I stated above

    KC553980(HAL36) Brotherton Haplogroup H23 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263GA750GA1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G C10211T A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553981(HAL11) Brotherton Haplogroup H 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G T16093C
    G16129A T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553982(HAL32) Brotherton Haplogroup H26 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G T11152C A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553983(HAL39) Brotherton Haplogroup H1e 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G G5460A A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553984(DEB9) Brotherton Haplogroup H88 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8596G A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553985(DEB21) Brotherton Haplogroup H1j 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N T4733C A4769G A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553986(KAR6a) Brotherton Haplogroup H1bz 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G1719A G3010A C3107N A4769G A8860G
    C14380T A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553987(KAR11b) Brotherton Haplogroup H 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T152C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553988(KAR16a) Brotherton Haplogroup H46b 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C2772T C3107N A4769G A8860G A11893G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553989(OSH2) Brotherton Haplogroup H89 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A6932G C8068T A8860G
    T12696C A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553990(OSH3) Brotherton Haplogroup H1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553991(OSH1) Brotherton Haplogroup H16 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T152C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G C10394T
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553992(OSH7) Brotherton Haplogroup H5b 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G C456T A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G G5471A A8860G
    A15326G T16304C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553993(SALZ18a) Brotherton Haplogroup H10i 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G C13503T T14470A
    A15326G T16093C T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553994(SALZ21b) Brotherton Haplogroup H1e7 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G T1766C G3010A C3107N A4769G G5460A
    A8860G A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553995(ESP30) Brotherton Haplogroup H1e1a5 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G G5460A C5960T
    A8512G A8860G G8865A C14902T A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N
    A16561N
    T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553996(HQU4) Brotherton Haplogroup H7d5 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A4793G A8860G A15326G
    C15409T G16388A T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553997(SALZ57a) Brotherton Haplogroup H3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T152C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G T6776C A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553998(SALZ77a) Brotherton Haplogroup H3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G T6776C A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC553999(ESP15) Brotherton Haplogroup H6a1a 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T239C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N G3915A A4727G A4769G
    A8860G G9380A T11253C A15326G T16362C A16482G G16558N A16559N C16560N
    A16561N
    T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554000(BZH6) Brotherton Haplogroup H1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G A8149G A8860G
    A9377G T9467C A13671G T14319C A15326G T16189C T16519C G16558N A16559N
    C16560N
    A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554001(BZH4) Brotherton Haplogroup H1e7 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G G5460A A8860G
    A15220G A15326G A15401G A16293G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N
    T16562N
    C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N
    G16569N

    KC554002(ROT6) Brotherton Haplogroup H5a3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G C456T G513A A750G A1438G C3107N T4336C A4769G
    A8860G A15326G G15884A T16304C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N
    C16563N
    A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554003(ALB1) Brotherton Haplogroup H3b 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G A2581G C3107N A4769G T6776C A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554004(ROT1) Brotherton Haplogroup H3ao2 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N C4577T A4769G T6776C A8860G
    A15326G C16256T T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554005(ROT2) Brotherton Haplogroup H5a3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G C456T G513A A750G A1438G C3107N T4336C A4769G
    A8860G A15326G G15884A T16304C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N
    C16563N
    A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554006(QUEXII1) Brotherton Haplogroup H4a1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N C3992T A4024G A4769G T5004C
    A8860G G9123A C14365T A14582G A15326G G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N
    T16562N
    C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554007(QUEXII2) Brotherton Haplogroup H4a1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N C3992T A4024G A4769G T5004C
    A8860G G9123A C14365T A14582G A15326G G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N
    T16562N
    C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554008(QLB26a) Brotherton Haplogroup H1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554009(QUEVIII3) Brotherton Haplogroup H3a1a2c 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C2259T C3107N A4745G A4769G A8860G
    G9025A A13542G C13680T C14872T A15326G G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N
    T16562N
    C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554010(QLB28b) Brotherton Haplogroup H1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G
    T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N
    G16566N
    A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554011(BZH1) Brotherton Haplogroup H11a 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T195C A263G A750G T961G A1438G C3107N A4769G T8448C
    A8860G G13759A A15326G A16293G T16311C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N
    T16562N
    C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554012(BZH8) Brotherton Haplogroup H2a1a3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G G951A C3107N C6173T A8860G T13095C A15326G
    A16240T C16354T G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554013(BZH14) Brotherton Haplogroup H82a 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T195C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A8860G A15326G
    A16220G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554014(EUL41a) Brotherton Haplogroup H4a1a1a5 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A73G A263G A750G A1438G C3107N C3992T A4024G A4769G
    T5004C G8269A A8860G G9123A A10044G C13545T C14365T A14582G A15326G G16558N
    A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N
    T16568N
    G16569N

    KC554015(EUL57B) Brotherton Haplogroup H3 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N T152C A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G T6776C A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554016(QUEVIII4) Brotherton Haplogroup H7h 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G A4793G A8860G A15326G
    G16213A T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554017(Sardinia) Brotherton Haplogroup H1aw1 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G A8701G A8860G
    A15326G C15912T T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    KC554018(Latsch) Brotherton Haplogroup H90 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G C3107N A4769G C5435T A8860G T8911C
    T10237C T15109C A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N
    C16563N
    A16564N C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  17. #17
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I find this F3 very confusing indeed! I've not the key neither for me nor for you helas! I 'll take my pills (my nerves again!)

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Thanks SIle but this table is chinese language for me: all seems of a kind of mt-H? right?
    where came they from?
    thanks beforehand

  19. #19
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,825
    Points
    249,460
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,460, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    We'll have to see what the Lazaridis et al paper has to say. I think they tested 49 ancient genomes from Anatolia. It will be presented in the first week of October, and I would think it will be on line around that time.

    From what I have seen posted here, Eurogenes maintains that it will show that there was very little difference between the Anatolian farmers and the EEF farmers of central Europe(a matter of a few percent). Certainly there's very little difference between the Barcin Anatolian farmer from 4700 BC whose genome we already have and the EEF of early Neolithic Europe. Time will tell about the earlier ones.

    If the farmers did pick up a few percent in Europe, I would think it would have happened in the Balkans, perhaps around the Danube Gates where there was a pretty numerous community of sedentary fisher/gatherers. They probably were more similar to KO1 than to La Brana or Loschbour.

    If it was only a few percent and most of this kind of ancestry was already absorbed in the Middle East that would mean that a group resembling the EHG more than the WHG may have been spread from the Near East, or parts of it, to Europe. (We've discussed in other threads whether that might be connected to a Gravettian movement from the Middle East into Europe for which some modern scholars argue.) We already can speculate that a WHG like group was spread on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar, since there are such high levels of it in North Africans.

    We also don't know if this EEF/ENF signature was in the Greek islands or other parts of southern Europe contemporary with or before the actual development of agriculture in the Near East, i.e. "Mesolithic" times in Europe because we don't yet have ancient dna from that time and place. Time will tell as to that as well.

    I don't know when we're going to stop applying modern political labels to ancient people.

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I find this F3 very confusing indeed! I've not the key neither for me nor for you helas! I 'll take my pills (my nerves again!)
    Don't take your pills yet, you'll be too groggy to read this!

    In Haaks admixture run in K=20, once WHG becomes a separate instance a strange thing happens with Loschbour. It all of a sudden shows some EEF admixture. Very strange:


  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks SIle but this table is chinese language for me: all seems of a kind of mt-H? right?
    where came they from?
    thanks beforehand
    They came from brotherton paper of Neolithic Mtdna of the H marker only, the paper is used by Laz and Haak, so from 2013 to 2015 laz and Haak papers found ydna for these H mtdna markers ..like

    KC553986(KAR6a) Brotherton Haplogroup H1bz 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G1719A G3010A C3107N A4769G A8860G
    C14380T A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N
    A16564N
    C16565N G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    Is T1a ydna tested - Neolithic from 5200BC to 5500BC from central Germany

    this one below
    KC553983(HAL39) Brotherton Haplogroup H1e 23-APR-2013
    G1N A2N T3N C4N A5N C6N A7N G8N G9N T10N
    C11N T12N A263G A750G A1438G G3010A C3107N A4769G G5460A A8860G
    A15326G T16519C G16558N A16559N C16560N A16561N T16562N C16563N A16564N
    C16565N
    G16566N A16567N T16568N G16569N

    was G2a neolithic from central germany

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    @Angela
    your post #19 is sensible for the most for me;

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We already can speculate that a WHG like group was spread on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar, since there are such high levels of it in North Africans
    No need for speculation. We know for sure:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/

  24. #24
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,320
    Points
    34,830
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,830, Level: 57
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 620
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Don't take your pills yet, you'll be too groggy to read this!

    In Haaks admixture run in K=20, once WHG becomes a separate instance a strange thing happens with Loschbour. It all of a sudden shows some EEF admixture. Very strange:

    the modification doesn't concern Loschbour only but also others populations - these different poolings are not more or less "regionally" specialized ones, they seem implying different criteria of assignation of some groups of genes to a basis population; at some stages of study some ancient populations were choosen as global "homogenous" criteria (basis) to compare to them, it seems at some others stages, they were themselves anlysed based upon criteria where other populations were choosen as basis for others ; sorry for my bad english and perhaps for my mistaked understanding of these autosomes games (unfalsiified?), a step by step approach.

  25. #25
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,825
    Points
    249,460
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,460, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    No need for speculation. We know for sure:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/
    Thanks. There's also the WHG that shows up in calculator runs of North Africans. I'd be happier for some ancient dna, however.

    @Moesan,
    I try not to get too far ahead of the evidence, in this and in life in general. I get into less trouble that way.:)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •