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Thread: I2a2a (M223) Mainhaplogroup of the Suebi (elbgermanic tribes)?

  1. #26
    Junior Member
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    Country: UK - England



    Peter Wilding

    So what are you thinking? Suebi tribes? (sorry I was out of here for so long)

  2. #27
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    Country: UK - England



    'The I2-M223 lines in Västerbotten are certainly not due to medieval immigration. The largest group in Västerbotten belong to I-S8104 which seems to be Early Iron Age Scandinavian.'

    Just seen this now - this answers the question I posed a few minutes ago. Any idea of the spread of I-S8104 within Scandinavia?

  3. #28
    Elite member
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    25-10-11
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Personally I don't see any link between Suebi and Y-I2-M223 whatever the subclades, in N-Sweden.
    Västerbotten is supposed, according to someones, to have been the target of an historical migration from S-Sweden, so closer than IA in time. I cannot check it for now. We know that the geographical origin of a clade is not tightly linked to its modern hotspot place. Geography changes by time. I don't know the succession of SNP 's leading to S8104. ATW the region occuped by Suebi is vaste and changing, and the M223 hotspot in Germany was in the Unstrut culture region, a local variant of Urnfields, maybe without links with proto-Germanics.

  4. #29
    Junior Member
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    25-10-20
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2 - L801

    Ethnic group
    Gaelic and Quebecois
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Tutkin: Yes, Normans were in that area but they left primarily I1 and yes Gallo-Italic is still spoken in about 15 towns/districts in Sicily. I got my Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis from National Geographic and their history report noted that I-M223 (I2A) lineages were surviving ones post LGM with the WHG. There is some research to back this up that is out there that we can refer to. So based on what I have been reading, I was wondering if others here see the I-M223 is just more related to WHG and not "Germanic" perse. On all my gedmatch calculators, my single distances are all Sicily and Southern and Central Italian regions up to Abbruzzo. With respect to deep clade analysis, is FamilyTree the best for that.

    Thanks for the response.
    I'm I2-L801 and my paternal ancestry leads directly back to middling nobility from Normandy, both from genealogical and genetic research. Its hard to say where that branch of I2 comes from, but the fact that it peaks in northern Germany and has a relatively high representation in Germany/Scandinavia and former Norman settlements implies a connection to the Scandinavians. The prevalence of I1 in Scandinavia implies that the Indo-Europeans who created the Corded Ware culture seemingly had no problem assimilating the mesolithic hunter-gatherer lines there. They just seem to have had a particular contempt for neolithic farmers.

  5. #30
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    776

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    ReggieM: I have not done any downstream clade analysis. My Ancestry update indicates Southern European 98% (89% Italian-South, 9% Greek) and I get a 2% Norwegian signal. So it may be possible that my IM223 Y-DNA is from a Scandanavian source, but I would not say that is definitive. Regardless, I identify ethnically as 1) of European descent, 2) Southern European, 3) Italian, and specifically Southern Italian_Sicilian. Period exclamation point, not to be flippant. So regardless of the the direct source of my Y-DNA Haplogroup, I still maintain IM223 is a WHG lineage that survived in different sub-clades in various regions of Europe. The 3 Mesolithic WHG in the ancient Roman study (Antonio et al 2019) all were I2, 1 IM436, the immediate upstream clade of IM223, and 2 were IM223. The WHG in Western Sicily (Grotto Uzzo) also have IM436 showing up. So I2 first appears a long time ago, and Y DNA I is likely the only indigenous Haplogroup that originated in Europe. So it could be these lineages just got absorbed into the local populations as they transitioned to farming societies and not really being tied to specific movements of people from one region to the other.

    From the Antonio et al 2019 supplement:

    Mesolithic (10,000-6,000 BCE; n=3)
    All three Mesolithic individuals are assigned to the I-M436 (I2a2) haplogroup, with two of them further classified into the I-M223 (I2a2a) subclade. The I haplogroup has been found in western hunter-gatherer (WHG) populations from many parts in Europe, including individuals from the Grotte du Bichon in Switzerland (11,820-11,610 calBCE), France (11,140-10,880 calBCE), and Germany (7,460-7,040 calBCE)(15, 70). In particular, several Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Iron Gates between Serbia and Romania (dated to as old as 8,000 BCE) belonged to the specific I-M223 (I2a2a) haplogroup (14). Therefore, the I-M436 haplogroup appears typical and widespread in Europe before the Neolithic transition, which is consistent with the similarity of the three Mesolithic Italian individuals to other WHGs based on autosomal SNPs.

  6. #31
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    11-05-19
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-M223 Continental
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3b1b1

    Ethnic group
    US South
    Country: USA - Texas



    No. I-M223 has a much wider distribution. However... downstream of I-M223, perhaps.

    Maybe I-P78 was the marker of a Swabian.

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