Ancient Genomes suggest Basque are descended of Late Neolithic Iberians

[Sile]

As to how he got to Iberia, I have some doubt that this individual, even if it's proved that he has a "Yamnaya" kind of autosomal signature, would have ridden a horse from the steppe across a mostly forest covered European landscape at a time when the horse hadn't even been domesticated yet, or was just being domesticated (see Anthony for a date about 3500 BC), and the later Corded Ware people still often used oxen to pull their primitive carts. Not to mention the fact that they would have had no reason to go due west on the European landmass to Iberia, leaving no trace of their passage in the Copper Age cultures of central Europe.

agree with you on the horse


there is also some issues with Haak R1b-V88 in Spain

an interesting post

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.bl...na-doesnt.html

The H2, as discussed further below, is rare but has a generally West Eurasian non-hunter-gatherer distribution.

What About The Man From El Trocs Cave?
This said, there is one chink in this argument. In a 2015 paper by Haak et al., that reports 69 ancient DNA results from Europe, there is a reference to a man from Neolithic Spain ca. 5100 BCE whose body was found in the El Trocs cave in the Pyrenees Mountains in Northern Aragon whose Y-DNA haplogroup was found to be R1b1* ancestral to all extant forms of Y-DNA R1b (both V-88 from Africa and the Eurasian haplogroups; he is not R1b-V88 as has been frequently misreported). This long predates Bell Beaker and coincides with the very early Neolithic era in the region, and is also not far from modern Basque country.


IF not V88 , then another R1b from earlier than ATP3 in Iberia.

 

[LeBrok]

@Everyone,

BTW, my Dad lacks the two "Lactose Tolerant" mutations and he's drank milk his whole life with no problems. No one has questioned the effect of those mutations. There are certainly other factors involved. The same is true for skin color. More factors are involved than the SNPs rs1426654 and rs16891982. I'm sure they make decent affects though.

I'm almost sure it has something to do with microbiota, bacterial flora quality in our gut, helping to digest everything, lactose included. Lactose persistence and digestion story is still not complete and not
fully understood.
Research reveals intolerance to be more common globally than lactase persistence, and that the variation has been tied to genetics, but that the largest source of variation has been shown to be based on exposure (e.g., cultures that consume dairy).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

 

[Fire Haired14]

Considering R1b-V88 and basal branches of R1b1a2 exist in West Asia it is no surprise to see both in Neolithic Europe.

 

[Brennos]

agree with you on the horse


there is also some issues with Haak R1b-V88 in Spain

an interesting post

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.bl...na-doesnt.html

The H2, as discussed further below, is rare but has a generally West Eurasian non-hunter-gatherer distribution.

What About The Man From El Trocs Cave?
This said, there is one chink in this argument. In a 2015 paper by Haak et al., that reports 69 ancient DNA results from Europe, there is a reference to a man from Neolithic Spain ca. 5100 BCE whose body was found in the El Trocs cave in the Pyrenees Mountains in Northern Aragon whose Y-DNA haplogroup was found to be R1b1* ancestral to all extant forms of Y-DNA R1b (both V-88 from Africa and the Eurasian haplogroups; he is not R1b-V88 as has been frequently misreported). This long predates Bell Beaker and coincides with the very early Neolithic era in the region, and is also not far from modern Basque country.


IF not V88 , then another R1b from earlier than ATP3 in Iberia.

Is it El Troc 3 from Els Trocs? Is so, it is positive for the V88 equivalent SNP. On Ancestral Journeys, the site of Jean Manco, there is the result.

 

[epoch]

Has the dating been verified? Could something have gone wrong there?

 

[bicicleur 2]

agree with you on the horse


there is also some issues with Haak R1b-V88 in Spain

an interesting post

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.bl...na-doesnt.html

The H2, as discussed further below, is rare but has a generally West Eurasian non-hunter-gatherer distribution.

What About The Man From El Trocs Cave?
This said, there is one chink in this argument. In a 2015 paper by Haak et al., that reports 69 ancient DNA results from Europe, there is a reference to a man from Neolithic Spain ca. 5100 BCE whose body was found in the El Trocs cave in the Pyrenees Mountains in Northern Aragon whose Y-DNA haplogroup was found to be R1b1* ancestral to all extant forms of Y-DNA R1b (both V-88 from Africa and the Eurasian haplogroups; he is not R1b-V88 as has been frequently misreported). This long predates Bell Beaker and coincides with the very early Neolithic era in the region, and is also not far from modern Basque country.


IF not V88 , then another R1b from earlier than ATP3 in Iberia.

this is what I have

Spain

Els Trocs [Troc3]

M

5178-5066 BC

R1b1c

M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+]

M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-

pre-T2c1d2

Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data

 

[Finalise]

I don't know how some people can still view L23->L51 at the heart of the IE expansions even after all the evidence. R1a's connection to IE speakers is undisputed after Sintasha findings, modern high R1a frequencies in South Asia and their link to Corded Ware. L23->Z2103 is found in steppe at high frequencies and it is prevalent in Western Asia, Balkans, Eastern Europe where IE languages are spoken.L51 is nowhere to be found around the steppe, and the most likely scenario is that L23's homeland is around Eastern Anatolia, with the northern branch of Z2103 being the Maykops/Steppe people, and the western branch of L51 being the farming branch that travels through the Danube to western Europe. El Portalon just confirms this.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I don't know how some people can still view L23->L51 at the heart of the IE expansions even after all the evidence. R1a's connection to IE speakers is undisputed after Sintasha findings, modern high R1a frequencies in South Asia and their link to Corded Ware. L23->Z2103 is found in steppe at high frequencies and it is prevalent in Western Asia, Balkans, Eastern Europe where IE languages are spoken.L51 is nowhere to be found around the steppe, and the most likely scenario is that L23's homeland is around Eastern Anatolia, with the northern branch of Z2103 being the Maykops/Steppe people, and the western branch of L51 being the farming branch that travels through the Danube to western Europe. El Portalon just confirms this.

you're a psychich

a lot of new data is going to follow the next few years

 

[MOESAN]

@Angela: thanks for communication - I hope your drink was good, I'm rather statisfied by my one. I 'll look at all that. Good evening.

 

[Brennos]

I don't know how some people can still view L23->L51 at the heart of the IE expansions even after all the evidence. R1a's connection to IE speakers is undisputed after Sintasha findings, modern high R1a frequencies in South Asia and their link to Corded Ware. L23->Z2103 is found in steppe at high frequencies and it is prevalent in Western Asia, Balkans, Eastern Europe where IE languages are spoken.L51 is nowhere to be found around the steppe, and the most likely scenario is that L23's homeland is around Eastern Anatolia, with the northern branch of Z2103 being the Maykops/Steppe people, and the western branch of L51 being the farming branch that travels through the Danube to western Europe. El Portalon just confirms this.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree: we have M269 in Neolithic Spain (M269 with no sub-clades recognized), and we have M269 with subclades in Eastern Europe (L23 and Z2103). Then, how can the M269 guy from Spain develop, in the same time but at the very end of a continent, the same mutation of L23 that is found in Eastern Europe to give life to the millions of Non-IE West Europeans? If so, it could easily be the greatest coincidence in Universe.

Another thing: M269 is a old branch, so it could easily take part to Neolithic migrations towards Europe. The answer lies in L23, L51 and L11 mutations. The steppe west of Don hasn't been sampled yet. So, El Portalon doesn't confirm a migration of L51 people... it confirms a migration of M269* people. I suppose that it is a different thing.

The last thing I would say is that we are so blind when speaking of Indoeuropeans that only a way must be opened: the northern one. All people claim Uralic and IE closeness, but we could also see a relationship between IE and Caucasian languages and also Semitic languages. I'm prone to think about a more southern homeland of PIE forefathers.

 

[Angela]

I don't know how some people can still view L23->L51 at the heart of the IE expansions even after all the evidence. R1a's connection to IE speakers is undisputed after Sintasha findings, modern high R1a frequencies in South Asia and their link to Corded Ware. L23->Z2103 is found in steppe at high frequencies and it is prevalent in Western Asia, Balkans, Eastern Europe where IE languages are spoken.L51 is nowhere to be found around the steppe, and the most likely scenario is that L23's homeland is around Eastern Anatolia, with the northern branch of Z2103 being the Maykops/Steppe people, and the western branch of L51 being the farming branch that travels through the Danube to western Europe. El Portalon just confirms this.

How do you know that the L51 spread with the Neolithic? Why couldn't L51 have developed from the steppe R1b and then gone up the Danube? Wasn't there one R1b in Yamnaya that was ancestral to European lineages? Even if that isn't the case, how do we know that a related lineage ancestral to western European R1b wasn't further west?

R1b is very old. Some of it was apparently Neolithic, some of it became largely African, some of it became Indo-European. Haplogroups don't come with a race or culture or linguistic stamp.

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying we have no way of knowing yet. I will say that I find it hard to believe that people in France are one third Yamnaya (Haak et al) if R1b didn't bring Yamnaya ancestry to western Europe. There isn't enough R1a to account for it.*


Who knows, maybe the original "Indo-Europeans" were R1b people who were living south of the Caucasus originally. Even if it arose in Yamnaya, you could make an argument that the R1a people were just Indo-Europeanized hunter-gatherers.

You know, I just noticed something. The France south sample is really from Aquitaine. That's where they spoke a Basque related language until into the Roman era. I think it's because that area wasn't on the major sea routes. They have roughly the same amount of Yamnaya as the other French; the difference is the small amount of WHG. I wonder why?

Ed. There also isn't enough steppe specific mtDna to account for it.

 

[Angela]

I'm almost sure it has something to do with microbiota, bacterial flora quality in our gut, helping to digest everything, lactose included. Lactose persistence and digestion story is still not complete and not
fully understood.
Research reveals intolerance to be more common globally than lactase persistence, and that the variation has been tied to genetics, but that the largest source of variation has been shown to be based on exposure (e.g., cultures that consume dairy).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

I think you may be right, Le Brok; I have two copies of the lactase persistence gene and stopped being able to drink milk or eat lots of cheese ten years ago.

However, the fact remains that those alleles don't exist until rather late in human history, and yet now the frequency in certain parts of Europe is extraordinarily high. They must have some beneficial effect.

 

[MOESAN]

to totally express themselves (impose their effects) some genes need the co-presence of other genes or the absence of kind of "antgonist" genes, I think; the link can can be broken down by crossing-overs after generations and generations, or "repared" by the same process?
some cases of different penetrance could explained by that?
the difficulties of medical genetics research is here to support that

 

[Angela]

to totally express themselves (impose their effects) some genes need the co-presence of other genes or the absence of kind of "antgonist" genes, I think; the link can can be broken down by crossing-overs after generations and generations, or "repared" by the same process?
some cases of different penetrance could explained by that?
the difficulties of medical genetics research is here to support that

Perhaps, but I'm talking about going from eating very large amounts of cheese, butter, ice cream etc into mid-life and then from one day to the next being unable to handle it at all. It was like the tripping of a light switch.

Not to get too much into personal revelations, but it was at a time of great personal stress and there were other health issues at the same time. I think changes in body chemistry can alter the operation of a lot of genes.

Ed. It was Lillet, by the way. Tonight, Campari. I'm a creature of habit.

 

[Sile]

this is what I have

Spain

Els Trocs [Troc3]

M

5178-5066 BC

R1b1c

M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+]

M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-

pre-T2c1d2

Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data

did you see Haak paper for el-trocs3 in Iberia ......I0410
it states
could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3).

R1b1c is V88, he states, tested and not V88 that's what the x means inside the bracket

 

[LeBrok]

I think you may be right, Le Brok; I have two copies of the lactase persistence gene and stopped being able to drink milk or eat lots of cheese ten years ago.

However, the fact remains that those alleles don't exist until rather late in human history, and yet now the frequency in certain parts of Europe is extraordinarily high. They must have some beneficial effect.

I agree, genes have major bearing on it. There might be an even further twist. What if your lactose tolerant variant genes are not expressed at all? Somehow got methylated, perhaps by way of epigenetics? You mentioned stress. It could have been also huge dose of antibiotics killing good microbiota?

 

[Brennos]

did you see Haak paper for el-trocs3 in Iberia ......I0410
it states
could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3).

R1b1c is V88, he states, tested and not V88 that's what the x means inside the bracket

He didn't test for V88: he tested the sample for V88 major subclades, i.e. V69 and V35, and resulted negative. However it tested positive for V88 equivalent SNP. The x mean that it is negative for specific subclades tested: so, R1b1c2 and R1b1c3... not R1b1c!

 

[bicicleur 2]

did you see Haak paper for el-trocs3 in Iberia ......I0410
it states
could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3).

R1b1c is V88, he states, tested and not V88 that's what the x means inside the bracket

see comment : Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data

V88 was not tested in the paper, but later, Y-DNA was reviewed, V88 eqivalent: PF6376 was found positive

that makes him R1b1c(xR1b1c2, R1b1c3)

 

[Angela]

I agree, genes have major bearing on it. There might be an even further twist. What if your lactose tolerant variant genes are not expressed at all? Somehow got methylated, perhaps by way of epigenetics? You mentioned stress. It could have been also huge dose of antibiotics killing good microbiota?

Sorry, I just deleted most of my post because it was too off topic and too personal.

I'll just say that everybody who grew up in the west has taken way too many antibiotics. I didn't take a particularly big dose at the time this happened. Probiotics help a bit, but not much.

The strange thing is that my mother, for example, who developed a taste for milk and sweets after moving here, never lost her ability to digest them, nor did my father ever have a problem with cheese. I'm the odd person out.

 

[Maciamo]

One thing that still bothers me with this new paper is that the 5500-year old ATP3 sample is considered to be Chalcolithic, although I cannot find any evidence of copper metallurgy in the northern half of Spain (and in southern France) until 5000 to 4500 years ago. Are the authors absolutely certain of their dating ? It's not just extremely odd to find an R1b-M269 with high Caucaso-Gedrosian ancestry in this period, it also doesn't make sense that it belongs to a Chalcolithic culture, especially for a "caveman".

Angela and Fire Haired mentioned that the ATP3 genome has low resolution and that the African and Veddoid components identified by Genetiker are probably wrong. But all samples has unusually high non-European admixtures, especially sub-Saharan African ones. Does that mean that none of the samples has adequate resolution to be of any use ? If that was the case I wouldn't have ventured trying to interpret the historical significance of that data as they did in the paper. Better no data than wrong data.

Another possibility is that the genomes are reliable, but that Genetiker's admixtures aren't. However Fire Haired emailed the lead author Iain Mathieson, who said that the admixtures looked correct. If so, then we still have a lot to figure out to explain how Late Neolithic northern Iberians got so much African admixture and why it mostly disappeared in modern North Iberians. On the other hand, the Veddoid and Amerindian admixtures could be an older component related to Paleolithic North Asians belonging to haplogroups Q, R*, R1 or old subclades of R1b that ended in Western Europe during the Ice Age.

It's also very odd to find a Yamna-like component (Genetiker's 'North-European', which is based on Yamna samples) in all of the samples found at El Portalon, when none of the Neolithic samples so far had any of it.