Ancient Genomes suggest Basque are descended of Late Neolithic Iberians

Maciamo said:
Another possibility is that the genomes are reliable, but that Genetiker's admixtures aren't. However Fire Haired emailed the lead author Iain Mathieson, who said that the admixtures looked correct.
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Iain Mathieson was the lead author of another paper "8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe". He said the SNP calls Geneticker got looked correct. I think you're right to suspect Geneticker's admixture test isn't reliable. The authors are reliable and they got Africa scores for modern Iberians but not for Ancient ones. No Neolithic or Mesolithic European genomes to date show signs of African admixture.
 
A couple of thoughts on the I2 since I'm just now seeing these (very interesting) new ancient Y-DNA results:

ATP17: I2 M223+ Y4450- Y6098- is very unusual nowadays. Y4450 is the common SNP to all major modern M223 branches (Cont, Isles, Roots, and some outliers as well). Y6098 covers all the remaining outliers I'm aware of, namely the smallish groups "Basics1" (Ethan Allen's haplogroup) and "Basics2". So to have neither of those SNPs is a good indication that we could be looking at an extinct branch of M223 in this ancient fellow.

Matojo: Surprisingly good coverage on this individual, with no real chance of a false positive. I2 M223>Y6098 puts them clearly into the Basics1/Basics2 outlier branch I mentioned above, and to further be S23680+ Y6099- means that they're not Basics1 (which is Y6099) but are instead probably Basics2. Unfortunately, they tested different SNPs than how the FTDNA M223 Project defines Basics2, but since that's the only significant other modern branch of Y6098 other than Basics1, it's probably a good assumption that S23680 is a Basics2 SNP. Yfull estimates S23680 to have a TMRCA of 8100 ybp, and the M223 Project gives a modern distribution of Basics2 that clearly leans toward Western and Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, France, UK, Italy), quite unlike the more common I2 M223>Y4450 branch, which leans more to Northern/Central Europe.
 
sparkey said:
A couple of thoughts on the I2 since I'm just now seeing these (very interesting) new ancient Y-DNA results:

ATP17: I2 M223+ Y4450- Y6098- is very unusual nowadays. Y4450 is the common SNP to all major modern M223 branches (Cont, Isles, Roots, and some outliers as well). Y6098 covers all the remaining outliers I'm aware of, namely the smallish groups "Basics1" (Ethan Allen's haplogroup) and "Basics2". So to have neither of those SNPs is a good indication that we could be looking at an extinct branch of M223 in this ancient fellow.

Matojo: Surprisingly good coverage on this individual, with no real chance of a false positive. I2 M223>Y6098 puts them clearly into the Basics1/Basics2 outlier branch I mentioned above, and to further be S23680+ Y6099- means that they're not Basics1 (which is Y6099) but are instead probably Basics2. Unfortunately, they tested different SNPs than how the FTDNA M223 Project defines Basics2, but since that's the only significant other modern branch of Y6098 other than Basics1, it's probably a good assumption that S23680 is a Basics2 SNP. Yfull estimates S23680 to have a TMRCA of 8100 ybp, and the M223 Project gives a modern distribution of Basics2 that clearly leans toward Western and Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, France, UK, Italy), quite unlike the more common I2 M223>Y4450 branch, which leans more to Northern/Central Europe.
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Western-Southern M223 is largely I2a2a2-Y6098 like one of the Late Neolithic Spanish? Most assumed I2a1a1-M26 would be the main Neolithic lineage of Iberia, but left out I2a2a-M223 assuming it came with medieval migrations of Germans into Iberia. That was obviously a mistake as we can clearly see with most Middle Neolithic Iberians coming out M223+.

You can see here Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA. Interestingly there is only one example of I2(xI2a1-M37) from Early Neolithic Europe, but all of a sudden I2a2a-M223 has a strong presence in Middle/Late Neolithic Spain and Bronze age Hungary. There's also an example of I2a2a-M223 from Yamnaya. The Yamnaya and a single Bronze age Hungarian I2a2a were of good coverage and belonged to I2a2a1a2a2(Hungary) and I2a2a1b1b2(Yamnaya). Do you know where those versions of I2a2a-M223 are mostly found today?

I wonder if I2a2a-M223 made some type of expansion, which can explain it's high frequency in Middle/Late Neolithic Spain and Bronze age Hungary, and it's high frequency in Central Europe today as opposed to I2a1-P37, G2a, and F*(the three main lineages of Early Neolithic farmers).
 
Fire Haired14 said:
You can see here Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA. Interestingly there is only one example of I2(xI2a1-M37) from Early Neolithic Europe, but all of a sudden I2a2a-M223 has a strong presence in Middle/Late Neolithic Spain and Bronze age Hungary. There's also an example of I2a2a-M223 from Yamnaya. The Yamnaya and a single Bronze age Hungarian I2a2a were of good coverage and belonged to I2a2a1a2a2(Hungary) and I2a2a1b1b2(Yamnaya). Do you know where those versions of I2a2a-M223 are mostly found today?
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The Yamnaya sample is downstream of Cont3 (I2-M223>L701), which is the broadly most eastern of the M223 branches, although it still has some of the typical M223 Central European distribution in addition to presence in Eastern Europe, etc. The M223 Project at FTDNA calls the Yamnaya sample's subclade "Cont3b," and shows that it has a very wide distribution ranging from Britain to India, with samples from France, Switzerland, the Czech Republic, Georgia, and even Algeria as well. It's not an outlier branch in modern samples, it's a subclade of the more common Y4450 SNP.

I know of a sample from Hungary (RISE247) that seems to be I2-M223>L1228. Interestingly, that's "Basics2," probably the same (admittedly rather old) subclade as Matojo. Were you talking about that sample, or the one from Szécsényi-Nagy 2015, or both?

Fire Haired14 said:
I wonder if I2a2a-M223 made some type of expansion, which can explain it's high frequency in Middle/Late Neolithic Spain and Bronze age Hungary, and it's high frequency in Central Europe today as opposed to I2a1-P37, G2a, and F*(the three main lineages of Early Neolithic farmers).
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Probably, there were multiple expansions, and also probably, we're going to have to start talking about expansions of the different I2-M223 subclades separately.
 
Brennos said:
I saw the link... and I keep seeing that ATP3 has 30% cca of Northern MIddle Eastern, 4% cca of Northern mongoloid, and the least percentage of Neolithic European...

And, yes, I suppose Geneticker's way of expression towards other bloggers is somewhat rude...
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he even has Aurignacian (Motala & PWC) and Gravettian (Pit Grave & Afanasievo)
 
Brennos said:
I saw the link... and I keep seeing that ATP3 has 30% cca of Northern MIddle Eastern, 4% cca of Northern mongoloid, and the least percentage of Neolithic European...

And, yes, I suppose Geneticker's way of expression towards other bloggers is somewhat rude...
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I really don't understand what this Genetiker guy is fretting about. The ATP3 R1b-M269 individual is clearly an outsider to Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, with completely different admixtures from other samples. He can tweak his calculator, the fact remains that a combination of Northeast European (aka Gravettian), Northern Mongoloid and Northern Middle Eastern is a indubitable sign that ATP3 was a recent migrant from Eastern Europe. The only thing that remains unclear is how he got to Spain so early as there is no archaeological evidence of change of culture. But new cultures only emerge when migrations are big enough to replace the pre-existing culture. So there may have been lots of minor migrations that left virtually no discernible archaeological trace, hence our surprise.
 
Maciamo said:
I really don't understand what this Genetiker guy is fretting about. The ATP3 R1b-M269 individual is clearly an outsider to Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, with completely different admixtures from other samples. He can tweak his calculator, the fact remains that a combination of Northeast European (aka Gravettian), Northern Mongoloid and Northern Middle Eastern is a indubitable sign that ATP3 was a recent migrant from Eastern Europe. The only thing that remains unclear is how he got to Spain so early as there is no archaeological evidence of change of culture. But new cultures only emerge when migrations are big enough to replace the pre-existing culture. So there may have been lots of minor migrations that left virtually no discernible archaeological trace, hence our surprise.
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As I mentioned in my early post here, he fits very well the first wave of conquests of horse steppe warriors. David Anthony says that first steppe warriors showed up in Balkans after 4,000 BC farming collapse.
All it took is, a band of young warriors on horses getting very advantageous and riding down there to Iberia.
They might as well be looking for the end of the world, like Alexander did, many millenia later. Anyway, as we know these Steppe guys had traveling and roaming in their blood. It is enough to check distribution of R1b around the globe to notice that.
 
Brennos;466819]I saw the link... and I keep seeing that ATP3 has 30% cca of Northern MIddle Eastern, 4% cca of Northern mongoloid, and the least percentage of Neolithic European...
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Exactly.

Brennos:And, yes, I suppose Geneticker's way of expression towards other bloggers is somewhat rude...
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Ya think? :) The word that actually comes to my mind is deranged. This just isn't a good enough sample. Period.

Plus, people really believe he has isolated the "Gravettian" component, much less the "Aurignacian" component, with no samples for them at all? Haven't we learned yet how misleading it can be when people "extrapolate" these components instead of using actual ancient samples?
 
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Angela said:
Plus, people really believe he has isolated the "Gravettian" component, much less the "Aurignacian" component, with no samples for them at all?
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This. The "Gravettian-derived R1b-M269 Y haplogroup" really got me, too. :rolleyes:
 
Angela said:
Plus, people really believe he has isolated the "Gravettian" component, much less the "Aurignacian" component, with no samples for them at all? Haven't we learned yet how misleading it can be when people "extrapolate" these components instead of using actual ancient samples?
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QFT. Genetiker's components are interesting if we take away what he's calling them, but likely very misleading if we leave the labels on.

It's worth saying something good about Genetiker, though: His Y-SNP call posts are very helpful, I refer to them often.
 
Brennos said:
I saw the link... and I keep seeing that ATP3 has 30% cca of Northern MIddle Eastern, 4% cca of Northern mongoloid, and the least percentage of Neolithic European...

And, yes, I suppose Geneticker's way of expression towards other bloggers is somewhat rude...
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rude! ...........basically if you do not support him 100% then it means you are against him mentality
 
Maciamo said:
I really don't understand what this Genetiker guy is fretting about. The ATP3 R1b-M269 individual is clearly an outsider to Neolithic/Chalcolithic Iberia, with completely different admixtures from other samples. He can tweak his calculator, the fact remains that a combination of Northeast European (aka Gravettian), Northern Mongoloid and Northern Middle Eastern is a indubitable sign that ATP3 was a recent migrant from Eastern Europe. The only thing that remains unclear is how he got to Spain so early as there is no archaeological evidence of change of culture. But new cultures only emerge when migrations are big enough to replace the pre-existing culture. So there may have been lots of minor migrations that left virtually no discernible archaeological trace, hence our surprise.
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he left the east most likely on foot as the horse according to Anthony was not domesticated until 3500BC.............he clearly did not travel alone as it would be illogical and thus he travelled with others with different markers ...............maybe he took 1 to 10 years to travel from east to west, will it matter!
 
LeBrok said:
As I mentioned in my early post here, he fits very well the first wave of conquests of horse steppe warriors. David Anthony says that first steppe warriors showed up in Balkans after 4,000 BC farming collapse.
All it took is, a band of young warriors on horses getting very advantageous and riding down there to Iberia.
They might as well be looking for the end of the world, like Alexander did, many millenia later. Anyway, as we know these Steppe guys had traveling and roaming in their blood. It is enough to check distribution of R1b around the globe to notice that.
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sorry no horse for human use at 4000BC unless you think David Anthony is wrong
 
Sile said:
sorry no horse for human use at 4000BC unless you think David Anthony is wrong
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[h=3]Horse images as symbols of power[edit][/h]About 4200-4000 BCE, more than 500 years before the geographic expansion evidenced by the presence of horse bones, new kinds of graves, named after a grave at Suvorovo, appeared north of the Danube delta in the coastal steppes of Ukraine near Izmail. Suvorovo graves were similar to and probably derived from earlier funeral traditions in the steppes around the Dnieper River. Some Suvorovo graves contained polished stone mace-heads shaped like horse heads and horse tooth beads.[52] Earlier steppe graves also had contained polished stone mace-heads, some of them carved in the shape of animal heads.[53] Settlements in the steppes contemporary with Suvorovo, such as Sredni Stog II and Dereivka on the Dnieper River, contained 12%-52% horse bones.[54]
When Suvorovo graves appeared in the Danube delta grasslands, horse-head maces also appeared in some of the indigenous farming towns of the Tripolye and Gumelnitsa cultures in present-day Romania and Moldova, near the Suvorovo graves.[55] These agricultural cultures had not previously used polished-stone maces, and horse bones were rare or absent in their settlement sites. Probably their horse-head maces came from the Suvorovo immigrants. The Suvorovo people in turn acquired many copper ornaments from the Tripolye and Gumelnitsa towns. After this episode of contact and trade, but still during the period 4200-4000 BCE, about 600 agricultural towns in the Balkans and the lower Danube valley, some of which had been occupied for 2000 years, were abandoned.[56] Copper mining ceased in the Balkan copper mines,[57] and the cultural traditions associated with the agricultural towns were terminated in the Balkans and the lower Danube valley. This collapse of "Old Europe" has been attributed to the immigration of mounted Indo-European warriors.[58] The collapse could have been caused by intensified warfare, for which there is some evidence; and warfare could have been worsened by mounted raiding; and the horse-head maces have been interpreted as indicating the introduction of domesticated horses and riding just before the collapse.
However, mounted raiding is just one possible explanation for this complex event. Environmental deterioration, ecological degradation from millennia of farming, and the exhaustion of easily mined oxide copper ores also are cited as causal factors.[5][56]
[h=3]Horses interred in human graves[edit][/h]The oldest possible archaeological indicator of a changed relationship between horses and humans is the appearance about 4800-4400 BCE of horse bones and carved images of horses in Chalcolithic graves of the early Khvalynsk culture and the Samara culture in the middle Volga region of Russia. At the Khvalynsk cemetery near the town of Khvalynsk, 158 graves of this period were excavated. Of these, 26 graves contained parts of sacrificed domestic animals, and additional sacrifices occurred in ritual deposits on the original ground surface above the graves. Ten graves contained parts of lower horse legs; two of these also contained the bones of domesticated cattle and sheep. At least 52 domesticated sheep or goats, 23 domesticated cattle, and 11 horses were sacrificed at Khvalynsk. The inclusion of horses with cattle and sheep and the exclusion of obviously wild animals together suggest that horses were categorized symbolically with domesticated animals.[citation needed]
At S’yezzhe, a contemporary cemetery of the Samara culture, parts of two horses were placed above a group of human graves. The pair of horses here was represented by the head and hooves, probably originally attached to hides. The same ritual—using the hide with the head and lower leg bones as a symbol for the whole animal—was used for many domesticated cattle and sheep sacrifices at Khvalynsk. Horse images carved from bone were placed in the above-ground ochre deposit at S’yezzhe and occurred at several other sites of the same period in the middle and lower Volga region. Together these archaeological clues suggest that horses had a symbolic importance in the Khvalynsk and Samara cultures that they had lacked earlier, and that they were associated with humans, domesticated cattle, and domesticated sheep. Thus, the earliest phase in the domestication of the horse might have begun during the period 4800-4400 BCE.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
 
Sile said:
he left the east most likely on foot as the horse according to Anthony was not domesticated until 3500BC.............he clearly did not travel alone as it would be illogical and thus he travelled with others with different markers ...............maybe he took 1 to 10 years to travel from east to west, will it matter!
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Actually David Anthony writes that the earliest evidence of horse domestication in the Pontic-Caspian steppes appears just after 4800 BCE (pp.200 and 201 in The Horse, the Wheel and Language). Several other sources give a range between 4000 and 3500 BCE for horse domestication.

These are merely estimates, not hard facts. However we should understand that this is the lower limit and not the upper one. It is only based on the archaeological evidence found until now. With archaeological finds there is always the possibility that older remains will be found later that push the dates even further. In other words we can't rule out that evidence of horse domestication from, say, 5000 BCE will be found one day. This is something that I try to keep in mind for all archaeological evidence. Always be careful with age estimates as they are liable to be revised when additional data comes in.

Anyway in the case of ATP3, 3500 BCE is definitely not too early for nomadic horse riders from the Steppe. I agree with Lebrok that these might have been adventurers looking for the end of the world. After all it has been proven that R1b people from the Black Sea region (Yamna) reached the Altai (Afanasevo) as early as 3500 BCE. It is not much farther to reach northern Spain. We also have evidence of the first forays of steppe people into the Balkans happened between 4200 BCE and 3900 BCE, when cattle herders equipped with horse-drawn wagons crossed the Dniester and Danube and apparently destroyed the towns of the Gumelnita, Varna and Karanovo VI cultures.
 
How amazing history is! Horse riders riding from Crimea to Madrid to prove forum theories about R1b 6,000 years later.It's clear the M269*s were the Leif Ericssons, the L23*s were the Columbuses, the Z2103 the Conquistadors, and L51 the Pilgrims.
 
the wheel, all of a sudden it was there +/- 3500 BC (or is this revised to 3000 BC ?)
and it spread immeadiately in Yamnaya, all over the steppe till Mongolia, in corded ware and even in Mesopotamia and central Europe

the horse, we don't know
were they just hunted? or herded? or domesticated? or ridden?
it is not clear for a long period of time
and it didn't spread in great numbers either, therefore - I guess - a domesticated horse was to expensive in maintenance costs

i'm not sure this ATP3 came on horse
he might have reached Iberia by boat too
same as you'd expect for Los Millares
 
Maciamo said:
After all it has been proven that R1b people from the Black Sea region (Yamna) reached the Altai (Afanasevo) as early as 3500 BCE. It is not much farther to reach northern Spain.
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wasn't the date for Afanasievo revised by Allentoft to 3000 BCE ?

nothinng in Allentoft about Suvorovo either - allthough, of course it was there
 
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