Ancient Genomes suggest Basque are descended of Late Neolithic Iberians

Btw. Why the more earlier than expected apparition of R1b-L51 in West Europe is viewed as a problem for his link to IE.
Wasn't it expected something like this based on the age estimates of Celtic, Italic and Germanic by David Anthony?
Germanic 3300BC
Italic 3000BC
Celtic 3000BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#Classification
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Et6SS_bTF.../s1600/annurev-linguist-030514-124812.f2.jpeg

The theory is that IE languages were brought to West Europe with heavily Steppe-admixed people in 2800 BC who had Y DNA R1b-L151. R1b-L151 and IE languages in West Europe in 3500 BC would completly prove this theory incorrect.

Anyways, Germanic languages expanded in the early historic period(~0-700 AD) and most Celtic/Italic languages might have expanded in the Early Iron age(1000-500 BC). The idea they expanded around 3000 BC is insane. Those languages didn't expand the moment IEs arrived.

Germanic evolved in Scandinavia and Celtic/Italic evolved in Germany/Hungary/Austria area for 2,000 years before they expanded.
 
The theory is that IE languages were brought to West Europe with heavily Steppe-admixed people in 2800 BC who had Y DNA R1b-L151. R1b-L151 and IE languages in West Europe in 3500 BC would completly prove this theory incorrect.

Anyways, Germanic languages expanded in the early historic period(~0-700 AD) and most Celtic/Italic languages might have expanded in the Early Iron age(1000-500 BC). The idea they expanded around 3000 BC is insane. Those languages didn't expand the moment IEs arrived.

Germanic evolved in Scandinavia and Celtic/Italic evolved in Germany/Hungary/Austria area for 2,000 years before they expanded.

Do you think that ATP3 could be R-L151?
 
But, frankly, the new analysis by Genetiker of that ATP3 individual are very similar to the first analysis done: he seems to be East-shifted.
 
Btw. Why the more earlier than expected apparition of R1b-L51 in West Europe is viewed as a problem for his link to IE.
Wasn't it expected something like this based on the age estimates of Celtic, Italic and Germanic by David Anthony?
Germanic 3300BC
Italic 3000BC
Celtic 3000BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#Classification
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Et6SS_bTF.../s1600/annurev-linguist-030514-124812.f2.jpeg

For expansion it's too early,
but for the split of dialects from the other IE dialects, it is possible.
 
Fire Haired

I see what You say. I don't mean an expansion of Germanic, I mean the split. For the split some space is needed. A relatively isolated place is needed and big distance from neighbouring other IEs to exclude any convergence.

I think the big problem for L51>L11 to be linked to IE would be to find an aDNA without any ANE. That will put end to that theory. But until now there is no such aDNA. Even this dubious R1b-M269 seems to have some ANE, and he is not even L23+ or L51+.
 
I shall come on this topic at the week end;
as the topic is about Basques, ancient or current ones, I put here some thoughts of Eurogenes-Davidski (Polako?)

Friday, October 16, 2015

Basques are not simply a fusion of Iberian hunter-gatherers and early farmers

I thought I'd revisit the issue of Basque origins with my new Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasia. The useful thing about this PCA is that it gets around two problems that routinely affect PCA featuring ancient samples: projection bias, otherwise known as shrinkage, and exaggerated outcomes for individuals with high counts of homozygous genotypes.


A couple of recent papers argued that Basques were the direct descendants of local hunter-gatherers and early Neolithic farmers who arrived in Iberia from the eastern Mediterranean. This is probably correct for the most part, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

On the PCA above, Basques are quite distinct from Early Neolithic, Middle Neolithic and Copper Age Iberians (marked Iberia_EN, Iberia_MN and Iberia_CA, respectively), because they are significantly more eastern. In fact, they cluster with the only Bronze Age Iberian on the plot (Iberia_BA), which is the same individual that I found to harbor steppe-related ancestry (see here).

Thus, the story told by the PCA is that Basques are the progeny of Bronze Age Iberians, who, unlike their Copper Age predecessors, experienced a pulse of steppe-related admixture from the east.

Formal statistics back this up. For instance, here's a quote from the recently revised Mathieson et al. preprint:
However, the statistic f4(Basque, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara,Chimp)=0.00168 is significantly positive (Z=8.1), as is the statistic f4(Spanish, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara, Chimp)= 0.00092 (Z=4.6). This indicates that steppe ancestry occurs in present-day southwestern European populations, and that even the Basques cannot be considered as mixtures of early farmers and hunter-gatherers without it (4).

The key question now is who brought the steppe-related ancestry to Basque country. Were they Indo-Europeans or speakers of Proto-Basque? Also, did they actually come from the steppe, or somewhere nearby, like the Carpathian Basin?

The reason I mention the Carpathian Basin is because, as per the PCA, Basques more or less cluster between Copper Age Iberians and some of the Bronze Age Hungarians (marked Hungary_BA). But this is just one possibility, and I'm not sure at this stage how plausible it looks with, say, formal statistics.

In this analysis I used samples from the Allentoft et al., Gunther et al., Haak et al. and Lazaridis et al. datasets, all of which are publicly available. The latter two are found at the Reich Lab site here. If you're confused by some of the acronyms in the PCA key, see here.
Posted by Davidski








[FONT=monospace, serif]ATP2 ATP3 ATP7 ATP9 ATP12 ATP16 ATP17 ATP20[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Neolithic European 80.38 49.49 88.17 67.83 82.82 90.82 99.53 54.34[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Gravettian 10.29 12.62 11.82 28.38 0.00 2.30 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Aurignacian 8.42 3.83 0.00 2.53 17.17 6.36 0.45 10.46[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mideastern 0.00 30.39 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Veddoid-Caucasoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.14 0.00 0.00 0.00 28.91[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Amerindian 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.07 0.00 0.00 0.00 6.28[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Northern Mongoloid 0.84 3.66 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.51 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Australoid 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mideastern 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eskimo 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Bushman 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Taiwanese aborigine 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Western Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Southern Mongoloid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Eastern Negroid 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00[/FONT]
[FONT=monospace, serif]Pygmy 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
[/FONT]
 
I tried to copy/paste a post of Eurogenes (Polako?) concerning the drift of today Basques towards something "east": HG Samara or BA Yamnaya?
all the way the text is available on his blog - I shall say ma thought this week end -
good challenges!
 
Friday, October 16, 2015

Basques are not simply a fusion of Iberian hunter-gatherers and early farmers

I thought I'd revisit the issue of Basque origins with my new Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of West Eurasia. The useful thing about this PCA is that it gets around two problems that routinely affect PCA featuring ancient samples: projection bias, otherwise known as shrinkage, and exaggerated outcomes for individuals with high counts of homozygous genotypes.
image erased here
A couple of recent papers argued that Basques were the direct descendants of local hunter-gatherers and early Neolithic farmers who arrived in Iberia from the eastern Mediterranean. This is probably correct for the most part, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

On the PCA above, Basques are quite distinct from Early Neolithic, Middle Neolithic and Copper Age Iberians (marked Iberia_EN, Iberia_MN and Iberia_CA, respectively), because they are significantly more eastern. In fact, they cluster with the only Bronze Age Iberian on the plot (Iberia_BA), which is the same individual that I found to harbor steppe-related ancestry (see here).

Thus, the story told by the PCA is that Basques are the progeny of Bronze Age Iberians, who, unlike their Copper Age predecessors, experienced a pulse of steppe-related admixture from the east.

Formal statistics back this up. For instance, here's a quote from the recently revised Mathieson et al. preprint:
However, the statistic f4(Basque, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara,Chimp)=0.00168 is significantly positive (Z=8.1), as is the statistic f4(Spanish, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara, Chimp)= 0.00092 (Z=4.6). This indicates that steppe ancestry occurs in present-day southwestern European populations, and that even the Basques cannot be considered as mixtures of early farmers and hunter-gatherers without it (4).

The key question now is who brought the steppe-related ancestry to Basque country. Were they Indo-Europeans or speakers of Proto-Basque? Also, did they actually come from the steppe, or somewhere nearby, like the Carpathian Basin?

The reason I mention the Carpathian Basin is because, as per the PCA, Basques more or less cluster between Copper Age Iberians and some of the Bronze Age Hungarians (marked Hungary_BA). But this is just one possibility, and I'm not sure at this stage how plausible it looks with, say, formal statistics.

In this analysis I used samples from the Allentoft et al., Gunther et al., Haak et al. and Lazaridis et al. datasets, all of which are publicly available. The latter two are found at the Reich Lab site here. If you're confused by some of the acronyms in the PCA key, see here.
Posted by Davidski
 
I know plottings are not maybe not sufficiant to appreciate distances and trends; I see Basques shifted for the most towards Hgs when compared to Sardinians and Neolithic populations (and the Chalcolithoc ones of Iberia): something more "North" more "West"; some could say their HG's direction is almost more Scandinavianlike than Iberianlike?
In fact the slight more proximity they show with Steppic people seems more the result of ancient Samara HGs and even Karelia having a strong common ancient HGs heritage.
It remains they have some 'gedrosia' and share something with North-East Europe people (mtDNA roots of some haplo's); some ratios as 'gedrosia'/'caucasus', 'basque'/'sardinian' in some poolings show strong enough relations with the Isles and West Scandinavia, a bit less with Finland; by the way here again, Lithuanians and Slavs are opposed to Basques and other Northern people, as if they were really composed of a component which was avoided by some East-West moves, if not by all of these moves, of course!
so the I-Ean link seems very weak in Basques, they have little of southern part of the 'teal' or 'central-asian' component if any, I think.
 

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