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Thread: Role of recent admixture in last 1500 years

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    Because comparing the whole of Spain, with the usual oversampling of Basques, Catalans, Aragonese,... with single coast cities in the far south of Italy is fine, isn't it? Just for the info those S Italians over there are all from Crotone, it's even showed on the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Because comparing the whole of Spain, with the usual oversampling of Basques, Catalans, Aragonese,... with single coast cities in the far south of Italy is fine, isn't it? Just for the info those S Italians over there are all from Crotone, it's even showed on the map.
    I'm aware that there's an awful lot of comparing of the figures for all of Spain (and sometimes of northern parts of Spain) to a few cities in the far south of Italy. I've pointed out to Drac that he does this all the time. It's some sort of quest to find somewhere in Europe that has more or comparable SSA even if it's only one city.

    The point remains, however, that there are places in Italy as well that have some insignificant percentages of SSA. Maybe not all of southern Italy, and certainly not all of Italy as a whole, but there are places where you can find it. Honest discussion and analysis would acknowledge that. But then honest analysis isn't what this is all about.

    Oh, and what's wrong with taking samples in Crotone now, if that's actually where they were taken and the authors didn't just randomly put the circle in that spot? It had an illustrious history as a major city-state of Magna Graecia (settled from Achaea, if some of our readers don't know). Something wrong with the ancient Greeks now? The Brutii (Italics) were there too, of course, some Ostrogoths if I remember correctly, the Byzantines, the Saracens for a few years, then the Normans. It seems a rather unremarkable sequence of events for southern Italy and Sicily.

    What precise area do you want to use to represent all southern Italians or all Italians? The Trentino?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Perhaps...suggested...It is a possibly... yeah you have convinced me. LOL
    The "perhaps" part is in fact about their results for Spain, which they themselves questioned and then dismissed as "not significant"... "LOL", indeed. And "suggested" is putting it mildly. As you can see, it is not difficult at all to find genetic studies that have found African (both North and sub-Saharan) among other Europeans.

    LOL There are no Iberians over there to compare with.
    Do they have to be? The fact is that studies have found African DNA among Italians and other Europeans, which you were trying to deny earlier.

    By the way in the k=2 ADMIXTURE analysis of Atzmon, Italians are the Europeans with the least non caucasoid admixture.
    At K=2 the lowest were the Sardinians and Basques, not the continental Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm aware that there's an awful lot of comparing of the figures for all of Spain (and sometimes of northern parts of Spain) to a few cities in the far south of Italy. I've pointed out to Drac that he does this all the time. It's some sort of quest to find somewhere in Europe that has more or comparable SSA even if it's only one city.
    But it is in fact many geneticists who love to split up Italy into several parts and give separate figures for each, while Spain they usually lump it all together minus the Basques. It is rather more unfair for Spain than Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What a disheartening beginning to a Sunday. It makes me sorry I had a relatively heavy brunch.

    I'm going to warn you both. Any name calling and particularly any distortion of data will result in infractions.

    Drac, you were already issued an infraction for misrepresenting the findings of the Hellenthal et al data. If you're doing it again, you'll get another one for resisting moderation.
    You gave me an (undeserved) infraction for having failed to notice a tab for older DNA that is only provided for some countries in that study. If you want to give sanctions for purposeful misrepresentations you should give it to "Joey", who besides having been banned a whole bunch of times already is obviously lying about African DNA supposedly only being found in Spain out of all Europe. He is fully aware that this is not the case at all. Now that is truly malicious "misrepresentation".

    To wit, from post #44..
    "Also, that very same study found no sub-Saharan African DNA in Spain."

    WHICH study found no SSA in Spain?
    The one that was quoted to assess the genetic composition of Bantu-Kenyans: Shriner et al. 2014. That study not only found no sub-Saharan DNA in Spain, it also did not find any significant amount of North African DNA either and simply labelled it as 0 on the ancestral component table:

    http://www.nature.com/article-assets...ep06055-s1.pdf


    I already proved that Hellenthal et al did indeed find SSA in Spain and you were already issued an infraction for misrepresenting that fact.
    The other tab where you are getting those figures from represents things that the authors considered could be as old as many thousands of years ago (2530 BCE), they put it separately from the DNA they considered to be of more recent origin. And this thread is about recent/historical admixture, not things that can be as old as 4500+ years.

    So, if Shriner et al shows SSA in Spaniards, and obviously Hellenthal et al shows the same thing, then you are once again misrepresenting the facts.
    Shriner et al. does not show any sub-Saharan (or North African, for that matter) for Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Because comparing the whole of Spain, with the usual oversampling of Basques, Catalans, Aragonese,... with single coast cities in the far south of Italy is fine, isn't it? Just for the info those S Italians over there are all from Crotone, it's even showed on the map.
    If we take the map locations shown in their companion web site to be without doubt the location where the samples for each region/country came from, then their Spanish samples must be from Madrid. So much for "oversampling of Basques, Catalans, Aragonese..."

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    It seems that some other people have started to notice "odd" things regarding this threads' main paper, particularly regarding the "West African" (which included some North African samples for some reason) and "Levantine" (which for some reason included a whole lot more than just the Levant) components:

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5878295/1/

    Also, as was pointed out by one the posters there, their admixture runs do not seem to show what their admixture "map" suggests:

    http://i.imgur.com/965oLAq.png

    For example, the Spanish and most of the Italian samples have some North African (yellow) component and little to no "West African" (brownish-orange) properly, yet the "map" suggests the opposite: no North African (except Sardinians, who ironically enough seem to have no North African at all in the admixture runs!) and some "West African". Maybe they got the colors of the circles confused in the map???

    Another thing: the French do not seem to have such a noticeably larger amount of "Levantine" (green colors) than the Spanish, in fact the Greeks are shown as having more of it than either, unlike the "map" suggests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Perhaps...suggested...It is a possibly... yeah you have convinced me. LOL



    LOL There are no Iberians over there to compare with. By the way in the k=2 ADMIXTURE analysis of Atzmon, Italians are the Europeans with the least non caucasoid admixture.
    exactly;
    Atzmon doesnt even have a Mozabite component it is a Berber component and every European has admix. of that K=6 (incl. many Russian samples); Lopez-Herraez et al shows Mozabite admixture at K=5 by Italian groups yet none at K=6 (figure 4); As you have mentioned no Iberians were tested but recently Gunther et al (Atapuerca study) sequenced many Spaniards and they are riddled (K=15) with Mozabite admixture (none in Italian groups); In Pardo-Seco et al 2014 Spaniards were the only Europeans with Black sub-Saharan admixture [K=4] so much so that the entire EUR sample turned out as 0.2%; Spanish samples i.e. IBS (IberiansSpain) and SPA (spain) are obviously located on the far right of the EUR samples (K=4 figure3);

    TSI (North Italians and Tuscans) = 0.0%
    EUR (GBR/CEU/FIN/IBS/SPA) = 0.2%
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105920

    In 2007 Frudakis tested many European groups based on 171 AIMs and the result was this:
    http://postimg.org/image/na6d2z0tx/

    Lazaridis et al 2013 made it quite clear why Spaniards stick in comparison to other Europeans (12.6% Mozabite and 2.2% Yoruba/Mbuti) and Mozabites have no European admixture!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    exactly;
    Atzmon doesnt even have a Mozabite component it is a Berber component and every European has admix. of that K=6 (incl. many Russian samples);
    The Berber component is from the Mozabites, marked purple on the graph and very clearly labelled "Mozabite". And yes, many Europeans have it in different proportions, unlike your strange obsession of trying to make it look as if the Spanish are the only ones who do.

    As you have mentioned no Iberians were tested but recently Gunther et al (Atapuerca study) sequenced many Spaniards and they are riddled (K=15) with Mozabite admixture (none in Italian groups);
    Even the Greeks had some at K=15. Plus some of the Spanish groups were hardly "riddled" with it. The Aragonese, for example, barely had any.

    In Pardo-Seco et al 2014 Spaniards were the only Europeans with Black sub-Saharan admixture [K=4] so much so that the entire EUR sample turned out as 0.2%; Spanish samples i.e. IBS (IberiansSpain) and SPA (spain) are obviously located on the far right of the EUR samples (K=4 figure3);

    TSI (North Italians and Tuscans) = 0.0%
    EUR (GBR/CEU/FIN/IBS/SPA) = 0.2%
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105920
    Maybe, but that graphic has no such specific labels on the EUR section, so you would have to show where in the study does it clearly show this.

    In 2007 Frudakis tested many European groups based on 171 AIMs and the result was this:
    http://postimg.org/image/na6d2z0tx/
    The West African component was also found among Italians, Greeks and Irish:

    http://thenewinquiry.com/wp-content/...06/dna-map.jpg

    Do you also need to be reminded of the AIMs results of Brisighelli et al. 2012?

    Lazaridis et al 2013 made it quite clear why Spaniards stick in comparison to other Europeans (12.6% Mozabite and 2.2% Yoruba/Mbuti) and Mozabites have no European admixture!
    A study that questioned its own results in this regard, and then labelled the African component "not significant".

    BTW, guess who among the European groups sampled had the largest West African (brownish-orange) component in this admixture run of the study that is the subject of this thread:

    http://i.imgur.com/965oLAq.png
    Last edited by Drac II; 21-11-15 at 13:08.

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    There are three Tuscan groups in the admixture: the one with 70 samples has zero amount of SSA, while the ones with 3 and 4 samples have few points. Obviosly they are either outliers or recently mixed.
    Last edited by Danelaw; 23-11-15 at 06:48.

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    There's actually seven sets of Tuscan samples: TSI2 (no West African), TSI23 (no West African), TSI2A (very small amount of West African), TSI2B (no West African), TSI3 (largest amount of West African of any European sample), TSI4 (second largest amount of West African among European samples), TSI70 (small amount of West African similar to those found in SICIL30 and SPANI27 samples)

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    First of all TSI70 has Masaai like component which is not west african. Then Admixture looks very noisy because South Euros are also scoring Siberian for example.

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    TSI70 only has a small amount of brownish-orange, the color used to label the West African component on the graph. The Masaai component is labelled darker brown on the graph.

    There is a very small component in a couple of the Tuscan samples (TSI23 & TSI2B) which also occurs in small amounts among Bantus, Iranians and Turks. It is labelled white on the graph and located at the bottom, but it is not clear what exactly is this supposed to represent.

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    The analysis looks extremely noisy and not very reliable. Tuscans and other South Europeans are scoring more Siberian/East Asian than West African/Masaai. So what are we arguing about?
    Last edited by Danelaw; 25-11-15 at 20:03.

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