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Thread: J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

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    J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

    According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

    Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

    The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

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    Sarmatian and Alan Y-DNA recovered in Beslan and other lacations

    According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

    Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

    The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year. The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakaryah View Post
    According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

    Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

    The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.
    I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

    Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?


    Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

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    As I already wrote in your other thread. so I quote myself.


    "The samples are not even from the same place or timefram but from a large area known to archeologist as "the Saltovo-Mayaki complex"

    "I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

    Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?



    Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

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    Alan

    In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

    Some additional information.

    Анализ аутосомных маркеров показал, что, хотя в генофонде изученных популяций фиксируются примеси разных направлений, в целом же можно говорить о том, что здесь обнаружены типичные европейские генотипы. translation.

    Despite having various admixtures, in general we can say that they have a typical European genotypes.
    They don't specify the number of markers. In the Russian forum someone posted that the details with autosomes and deeper Y DNA SNPs will be presented later.

    Also they have 126 aDNA samples from LBA, Iron age to medieval period. Samples are available not only from Steppe region but also from North Caucasus. How many of them have successful extraction they don't mention.
    Last edited by Arame; 23-09-15 at 10:09.

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    There is another Beslan in Rostov region.
    Near Salsk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsk

    So this Sarmatians are from Rostov region not Ossetia!??!!
    A new update.

    This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...oo&usp=sharing


    So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.
    Last edited by Arame; 23-09-15 at 10:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    A new update.

    This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...oo&usp=sharing


    So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.


    SO as I thought the sample is from further North and not Beslan but Rostov.

    WHat I don't understand about the text it says one of the Samples is Beslan from Rostov? How can a sample be from Beslan in Rostov. Thats like saying a Sample is from Bayern in Saxon it doesn't make sense imo.


    EDIT: Ah now I see the J1 Sarmatian samples are near Beslan. There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river. The Alan G2a and R1a samples are further North in East Ukraine. While the J2a samples again is in East Ukraine on the same spot as the Alan samples. And the Saltovo-Mayaki R1a again is in North Caucasus.

    In general there seems some more samples even an N1c is among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Alan

    In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

    Some additional information.

    That they are European like is out of doubt, as I know they include in EUropean Genotypes also North Caucasian as it is technically East Europe than that makes sense since I have seen scientists considr North Caucasian aDNA as "typical EUropean" either because they don't really seem to differ between North Caucasus and Russian genes. Looking by those y and mtDNA results they look like they are in between North Caucasians/Central Asians and Russians.

    This thread of mine and the map comes to my mind.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap



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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    The samples are not even from the same place or timeframe but from a large area known to archeologist as the Saltovo-Mayaki complex
    Sarmatian and Alan samples are Ancient (dated to years 200-600 AD).

    Saltovo-Mayaki are 4 Early Medieval samples from 800-900 AD from the area of the Khazar Khaganate:

    About Saltovo-Mayaki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

    "Saltovo-Mayaki is the name given by archaeologists to the early medieval culture of the Pontic steppe region roughly between the Don and the Dnieper Rivers. Their culture was a melting pot of Onogur, Khazar, Pecheneg, Magyar, Alan, and Slavic influences. During the ninth century the Saltovo-Mayaki culture was closely associated with the Khazar Khaganate, and archaeological sites from this period are one way that historians track the geographic scope of Khazar influence."

    https://www.academia.edu/15713987/Аф..._РАН._2015

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...20U/edit#gid=0

    I. Saltovo-Mayaki (years 800-900 AD):

    A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
    A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
    A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
    A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

    II. Sarmatians (years 200-300 AD):

    A80303 - J1 (Y-DNA), H1c21 (mtDNA)
    A80304 - J1 (Y-DNA), K1a3 (mtDNA)

    III. Alans (years 400-600 AD):

    A80305 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), W1c (mtDNA)
    A80307 - G2a (Y-DNA), X2i (mtDNA)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.
    It is not the first appearance of J1 in aDNA, but the second appearance.

    J1 a
    ppeared in 5 pre-conquest (ABO) samples from the Canary Islands dated to 2270 - 690 years ago:

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...2148-9-181.pdf

    E1b1b1b* M81 ---- 8 ---- 26,67%
    E1b1b1a* M78 ---- 7 ---- 23,33%
    J1* M267 -------- 5 ---- 16,67%
    R1b1b2 M269 ----- 3 ---- 10,00%
    K* M9 ----------- 3 ---- 10,00%
    I* M170 --------- 2 ---- 6,67%
    E1a* M33 -------- 1 ---- 3,33%
    P* M45 ---------- 1 ---- 3,33%

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    I. Saltovo-Mayaki (years 800-900 AD):

    A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
    A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
    A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
    A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

    II. Sarmatians (years 200-300 AD):

    A80303 - J1 (Y-DNA), H1c21 (mtDNA)
    A80304 - J1 (Y-DNA), K1a3 (mtDNA)

    III. Alans (years 400-600 AD):

    A80305 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), W1c (mtDNA)
    A80307 - G2a (Y-DNA), X2i (mtDNA)
    This map shows the location of all 8 samples listed above:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...o.kwOSocRsvcoo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river.
    This one is not from Sarmatians, but from Scythians (map) - and it is much older (from year 1000 BC or even older):

    This map shows all dates in BC, unless stated that in AD:

    http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png



    List of R1a samples from Europe from BC times (it doesn't include these new AD samples, Alans and Saltovo-Mayaki):

    UZOO74 - Red Deer Island, Karelia - 5500-5000 BC
    A3 - Serteya VIII, Smolensk Oblast - 4000 BC
    RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
    RISE436 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2868-2580 BC
    RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld, Bavaria - 2829-2465 BC
    EUL9(99-3) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
    EUL11(99-2) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
    EUL12(99-4) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
    RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
    A8 - Naumovo, Pskov Oblast - 2500 BC
    A9 - Serteya II, Smolensk Oblast - 2500 BC
    RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
    ESP11 - Esperstedt, Saxony-Anhalt - 2473-2348 BC
    RISE431 - Łęki Małe, Greater Poland - 2286-2048 BC
    Rogalin1 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
    Rogalin2 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
    RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
    HAL36 - Halberstadt, Sachsen-Anhalt - 1113-1021 BC
    Tanais kurgan - Azov steppes, Maeotia - at least 1000 BC
    M10 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
    M11 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
    RISE598 - Turlojiškė, Sudovia - 908-485 BC
    A4 - Anashkino hillfort, Pskov Oblast - 800-400 BC

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    Alans were Iranid (Aryan) R1a-Z94 (from R1a-Z93) folks and not Europoid R1a-Z283. R1a-Z94 evolved from R1a-Z93 on the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a is also from the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a-Z94 is native to Kurdistan and Persia

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    Sarmartians have J1, Alanians R1a-Z94; for me it's an ultimate proof that those folks came from the (Kurdish) Zagros Mountains.

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    For you it is. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    For you it is. :)
    Some folks don't like to hear the real truth. Ossetians are the modern descendants of the ancient Alanians, because Ossetians the only people in that region that speak also an Iranic language.

    " Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran. "

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...131.x/abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    For you it is. :)
    To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. Both worshipped the Sky though. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times. I doubt that Sarmatians, Scythians or whoever would have fit perfectly in one of the both categories. I see them more like the missing link between modern North Caucasians/Tajiks and Russians/Ukrainians based on Genetics As seen on my map above. However I also think just like the Bronze Age Armenian sample the Medes and even Persians where slightly more Northern shifted like modern North Caucasians compared to modern Kurds and Persians.

    I think all groups of the Northern Middle East are 8-15% Semite admixed, while ancient Iron Age groups would have been moe 4-8% admixed (from mixing with Babylonians and Assyrians). Than in more modern time came a second wave of Semite admixture with Arabs what probably doubled this numbers.

    What is nowadays North Caucasus like must have been by Bornze and Iron Age East Anatolian, Mesopotamian, South Caucasus and Iranian Plateau like. Ancient North Caucasus was probably even more Northern shifted similar to Yamna samples themselves. Since Myakop, Yamna and Kura Araxes seem to form a cultural complex.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-09-15 at 18:28.

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    To explain myself - it is not "ultimate proof" for me and I cant see how it can be
    Other than that I am rather agnostic to where those folk came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times.
    ?

    What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...
    .. that makes you of the race of GODS!!
    I am sorry for all the times I disputed with you, the reason was I did not know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ?

    What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC.
    When you want to be taken serious, stop talking about Iranoid here and there when it comes to genetics. typology is something what does not 100% correlate with genetics. Otherwise no one will even read your comments just an advice.

    EDIT: Now you declarted yourself to a God, wow thats the final stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ?

    What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...
    This is ridiculous. No such thing happened. Gods coming down to start civilization? Wtf
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    When you want to be taken serious, stop talking about Iranoid here and there when it comes to genetics. typology is something what does not 100% correlate with genetics. Otherwise no one will even read your comments just an advice.

    EDIT: Now you declarted yourself to a God, wow thats the final stage.
    When I'm talking about Iranid race I do mean folks who speak Iranic as their native language. The same folks who always spoke Iranic as their native language. 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago. People who gave birth to that Iranic language were Iranid.


    I never said that I'm a GOD. What are you talking about?? I'm just retelling a story of the Sumerians and their encountering with the Annunaki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki

    Those who gave the Sumerians their knowledge and their reasoning.
    Nice Hollywood movie for you about Annunaki : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sftuxbvGwiU



    But, for you there is no GOD, but Allah, right? The only truth is that there is no such thing as Allah at all, but many many sky Gods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga
    Alans were Iranid (Aryan) R1a-Z94 (from R1a-Z93) folks and not Europoid R1a-Z283.
    R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 both originated from R1a-Z645 around 3,000 - 4,000 BC (or 2,500 - 4,500 BC).

    So question is where did that ancestral R1a-Z645 person whose descendants were Z93 and Z283 live?

    By the way - R1a of Xiaohe mummies from the Tarim Basin was not Z93, according to Hui Zhou:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...aohe-belong-to

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ?

    What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...
    Gods ?...........there are no GODS, there is GOD..............the same GOD that stone-age man, ancient man, dark-age man and modern man pray to..........

    It's only these "religious mafia gangs" who state otherwise ..............the jews, christians, muslims, hindi, budha's and all the rest.

    If you have proof that there are GODS, then the ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Norse and everyone else is correct and modern religions are wrong.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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