J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

[Alan]

On the Medes-Sarmatian connection

The peoples of Madai first dwelt in North-west Iran, being called the Medes along with Medan. Their capital was Hagmatana (Persian) or Agbatana in Greek. They were called Ma-da-ai, in the Assyrian inscriptions and became associated and linked up with the Medanites who invaded their territory from the west. Thus the names Madai and Medes were used interchangeably, but the Medanites formed the ruling class.
After the defeat of the Scythians in 584 BC, a colony of Medes was established along the Don River. They thus moved north of the Black Sea and into Scythia
The Greeks called them the Sauro-Matae and they spoke the Scythian tongue which was much like that of the peoples of Persia and were also known as Surmatai or Syrmatai. It would appear that many Elamites, who dwelt adjacent to the Madai in Iran, probably migrated with them into south-eastern Europe [see Is.21:2].
Many ancient writers refer to them. Strabo mentions the Matiani or Matieni as does Herodotus and Pliny. Ammianus Marcellinus speaks of the Sauro-matians dwelling near the Hister (modern Danube). We also know that the Sea of Azov was anciently known as Maeotis Palus; on its shores dwelt the Maioti or Maiotiki.
The Sarmatian dagger and sword used by these people were exactly like that of the Medes. Researcher, Sulimirski, maintains that "the Sarmatians were...closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians."
Rostovtzeff wrote that "the Scythian kingdom—a formation almost completely Iranian, a northern counter-part of the kingdom of Darius and Xerxes...the Sarmatians, whose Iranian nationality is not disputed".
Herodotus wrote that the Medes were beginning to settle in the Ukraine even in his time. He maintained that there was a people who "dress in the Median fashion" and who "claim to be colonists from Media" that "live north of Thrace...beyond the Danube". Pliny noted that "Next come the two mouths of the river Don, where the inhabitants are the Sarmatae, said to be descended from the Medes".

https://books.google.de/books?id=EM...=onepage&q=sarmatians medes herodotus&f=false

In ancient Texts (Bible, Tora, Quran) the Medes are reffered to as Madai. Herodotus and Greeks often called them Matiene and according to Greek_Roman sources the name Sauro-matae basically means "Lizard" Medes (probably because of their armor which resembled that of lizards).


Another source.

https://books.google.de/books?id=8p...=onepage&q=sarmatians medes herodotus&f=false


As we know and as I pointed out previously often enough. The Parthians themselves are directly descend of Medes (mostly Medes themselves) but had an early Scythian Elite admixture (the Arsacids).

As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia

What became Parthians were simply the former Medes, this is visible not only in their culture and clothing (which is mostly Median with Scythian elements) but also from their language which is Northwest Iranic. When Parthians rised suddenly the Medes completely dissapeared from the display. Only a small Satrape (Media Atropatene) named after the former Empire, remained. But even the people in this Satrape were now identifying themselves as Parthians.

The Sarmatians might be another of those Median groups who migrated after the downfall of the Median Empire while the Medes remaining back home became something new, the Parthians.

Another important thing that points to a Median origin is that they worshipped the Fire and Sun/Sky typical for Western Iranic groups while the Scythians worshipped more the deities of nature.

All what Median tribes and their descends have in common when it comes to religion is that the Sun and Fire play a prominent role. Parthians being worshippers of Mithras the personification and deity of the sun and fire played a holy role.

the Medes are said to have formely called themselves Arianoi. Now the interesting part the term "Alan" is a corrupted version of the word Arian. The letters RI seem to have loudshifted into L.

Now to the most interesting part. One of the most commonly used names for the Alans is Alanoi.
http://pleiades.stoa.org/places/834278

Now taking into account the ri = l shift. Alanoi = Arianoi

And once again who called themselves Arianoi?

 

[arvistro]

What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

 

[LeBrok]

What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

Good question. Z93 is suspiciously low in Eastern Europe. Perhaps they only ruled like Mongols over conquered population, from distance collecting taxes, and only bringing army in times of unrest?

 

[Tomenable]

What happened with those Sarmatians (...) Where are those J1 (...) in (East) Europe now?

Here: http://s3.postimg.org/bgmkaqlvn/J1_area.png

BTW - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism

 

[arvistro]

And here Sarmatian map from wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Looks like those guys were erazed completely from North of Black Sea. That is if J1 was really ever a thing there. Those Sarmatians were found in Beslan, Caucasus where the green color does ok today.

 

[Alan]

What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

Absorbed mostly by Turkic speakers and later replaced with Slavic speakers. Thats what happened.

 

[Alan]

And here Sarmatian map from wiki:
View attachment 7435
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Looks like those guys were erazed completely from North of Black Sea. That is if J1 was really ever a thing there. Those Sarmatians were found in Beslan, Caucasus where the green color does ok today.

Just that the J1 in those Sarmatian samples is different from the J1 nowadays dominating there. So not local Caucasus but Iranic J1.

But than as you said it is unlikely that J1 was the dominant Haplogroup among the early Sarmatians since both samples are from the same area and other Sarmatian(Alans) samples turned out as G2a P15 and R1ab z94. J1 is Probably one of the many Haplogroups yet to be found among them.

 

[arvistro]

Absorbed mostly by Turkic speakers and later replaced with Slavic speakers. Thats what happened.

Can you elaborate in more details? It is rather dark subject for me in history.
Khazars? Hunns? Avars?

 

[Alan]

Can you elaborate in more details? It is rather dark subject for me in history.
Khazars? Hunns? Avars?

Huns were not really Turkic speakers but a Steppe confederation of Massagetes/Scythians and Mongols. But the Turkic groups ultimately gave birth out of this confederation.

But otherwise you have given the answer for the question. Avars, Khazars etc absorbed it, in fact so much that they would have been genetically already more Iranic than Altaic.

 

[Sile]

Huns were not really Turkic speakers but a Steppe confederation of Massagetes/Scythians and Mongols. But the Turkic groups ultimately gave birth out of this confederation.

But otherwise you have given the answer for the question. Avars, Khazars etc absorbed it, in fact so much that they would have been genetically already more Iranic than Altaic.

it all depends on when you think the turkic-central asian people entered the caucasus and the steppes.............do you have a time frame when turkic replaced iranic in say , modern Kazakh people/lands?

turkic in the caucasus was 400AD and into the eastern steppes 650 AD is my opinion

 

[Goga]

Scholars Claim Bulgarians Descended from Iran

" The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands.

“We have found impressive evidence about the Iranian origin of the ancient Bulgarians,”

“Even though the Iranians are darker-skinned, they look very much like the Bulgarians anthropologically. Some of the words in today’s Persian language sound the same as words in Bulgarian. Their traditional musical instruments such as whistles, bagpipes, and tambourine fully correspond our folklore tradition. Over half of the carpers in the Caspian areas of Iran coincide with the ornaments, symbols, and colors of the Bulgarian carpets,”

We are less than 20% Slavic. The Slavs are not the major element of the Bulgarian ethnicity,” "

http://www.novinite.com/articles/117903/Scholars+Claim+Bulgarians+Descended+from+Iran

 

[Sile]

Scholars Claim Bulgarians Descended from Iran

" The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands.

“We have found impressive evidence about the Iranian origin of the ancient Bulgarians,”

“Even though the Iranians are darker-skinned, they look very much like the Bulgarians anthropologically. Some of the words in today’s Persian language sound the same as words in Bulgarian. Their traditional musical instruments such as whistles, bagpipes, and tambourine fully correspond our folklore tradition. Over half of the carpers in the Caspian areas of Iran coincide with the ornaments, symbols, and colors of the Bulgarian carpets,”

We are less than 20% Slavic. The Slavs are not the major element of the Bulgarian ethnicity,” "

http://www.novinite.com/articles/117903/Scholars+Claim+Bulgarians+Descended+from+Iran

what do you mean by "eastern Iran"...bactrians or parthians people?

 

[Goga]

what do you mean by "eastern Iran"...bactrians or parthians people?

I don't know what they mean by that, but I think that according to those Bulgarian anthropologists and scientists Bulgarians are from Scythians or something. Scythians, Alanians etc. spoke an East Iranic language. It's possible that all Iranic folks North of the Black Sea became Bulgarians, but later on mixed heavily with Slavic folks and forgot their language and therefore changed their language into Slavic

 

[Goga]

All other Iranic folks were assimilated by Germanic and Slavic tribes. And other tribes were incorporated into the Roman Empire.

 

[Alan]

it all depends on when you think the turkic-central asian people entered the caucasus and the steppes.............do you have a time frame when turkic replaced iranic in say , modern Kazakh people/lands?

turkic in the caucasus was 400AD and into the eastern steppes 650 AD is my opinion

400 AD unlikely. By that time the Alans were ruling the Caucasus.

The Turkic groups gave brith in Central Asia just after the dispersal of the Huns around the 6th century AD. The Hunnic exapnsion correspondents well with the downfall of the Sassanian Empire in 650 BC after century long wars with the Romans the Sassanian Empire in the east worked as a border against the Huns until the Empire was so weakned by wars with Rome, overrun by the Arabs and opened it's eastern gates to Huns which ironically led to the downfall of the Roman Empire.

It is not even clear if the Turks even formed out of the Huns to begin with, or if they didn't exist already seperately and just used the Hunnic momentum to migrate towards West Asia and the Steppes themselves. Since the Huns who migrated Westward clearly seem like the former Massagetae who went into a nomadic confederation with Mongol tribes. Those Huns who actually pushed towards West were the Iranic Huns (also known as White Huns) while the Asiatic Huns stayed back home and were known as Xiongnu.

Regulary the Parthians would went to West China to assist the Chinese against those Xiongnu. It is said that hunger pushed those diverse nomadic tribes into a confederation to begin with and this must have also been the reason for their push towards West. By 400 AD already Central Asia would have become a melting pot of nomadic culture. The Sassanids are said to have fought against the Chionites on their eastern border (a corruption of the word Hun) those Chionit are said to have been Iranic Huns.

Hun in general seems to have been simply a "catch up" term for all Central and Northeast Asian nomadic tribes by that time. Massagetae, Scythians heck even the Hepthalites, Alchons and Nezak were called "Huns" by that time.

Even the Kidarites (former Kushans) were yet another of those Iranic Hun tribes. Taking into account all this it doesn't seem that Huns were really forefathers of the Turkic groups. It seems rather those White Huns were the last Iranic groups before leaving Central Asia. And this gap was filled by Turkic speakers who took advantage on the momentum.

However the best way to describe the Huns is as a nomadic confederation of various Central Asian tribes who at the beginning were yet mostly Iranic tribes which started to mix/merge or be replaced with more Mongolic elements.

Oddly enough the term Hun and the first Huns themselves must have been ultimately Iranic speakers cause they are mentioned on inscriptions in Persepolis from as far back as the Darius era and even earlier in the book of Avesta as part of the Tur/an people. Note the term Tur is Iranic and was used to differentiate the West Iranic tribes (called as Aran) from the Central Asian or East Iranic tribes known as Turan.

The name Xyon is found in Avestan and Pahlavi texts.^[10] In the Avestan tradition (Yts. 9.30-31, 19.87) the Xiiaona were characterized as enemies of Vishtaspa, the patron of Zoroaster.^[1] In the later Pahlavi tradition, the Red Huns (Karmir Xyon) and White Huns (Spet Xyon) are mentioned.^[1] The Red Huns of the Pahlavi tradition (7th century)^[11] have been identified by Harold Walter Bailey as the Kermichiones or Ermechiones.^[1] According to Bailey^[12] the Hara Huna of Indian sources are to be identified with the Karmir Xyon of the Avesta. Similarly he identifies the Sveta Huna of Indian sources with the Spet Xyon of the Avesta. Bailey argues that the name Xyon was transferred to the Huna owing to similarity of sound, as Tur was adapted to Turk in Pahlavi tradition

Tūrān (Persian توران), literally meaning "the land of the Tur", is a region in Central Asia. The term, of Persian origin,^[1] may refer to a certain prehistoric human settlement, a historic geographic region or a culture. The original Turanians were an Iranian^[2][3][4] tribe of the Avestan age.

As a people, the "Turanian" are one of the two Iranian peoples both descending from the Persian Fereydun but with different domains and often at war with each other.^[5][6] In fact according to the Shahnameh's account, at least 1,500 years later after the Avesta, the nomadic tribes who inhabited these lands were ruled by Tūr, who was the emperor Fereydun's elder son. The association with Turks is also primarily based on the Shahnameh's geographical account where Turkification of Central Asia was partially completed during that time.^[7]
Tur/Turaj (Tuzh in Middle Persian)^[8] is the son of emperor Fereydun in ancient Iranian mythology. In the Shahnameh, he is identified with the Turks;^[9] however, culturally there is no relationship between Turanians of the Shahnameh and the culture of ancient Turks according to C.E. Boseworth.^[10]
Turan comprised five sub regions: Southern Turkmenia, the Atrak Valley, the Eastern Elburz Mountains, the Helmand Valley, and Bactria and Margiana.^[11]


The oldest existing mention of Turanian is in the Farvardin Yashts of the young Avesta, which is dated by linguists to have been composed approximately 2500 years ago.^[12] The Avesta contains the names of various tribal groups who lived in proximity to each other. According to Prof. Gherardo Gnoli:’’Iranian tribes that also keep on recurring in the Yasht, Airyas, Tuiryas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis’’.^[13] In the hymns of the Avesta, the adjective Tūrya is attached to various enemies of Zoroastrism like Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb). The word occurs only once in the Gathas, but 20 times in the later parts of the Avesta.
The Turanians or Tuiryas as they were called in Avesta play a more important role in the Avesta than the Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis. Zoroaster himself hailed from the Airya people but he also preached his message to other neighboring tribes.^[13][14]
According to Mary Boyce, in the Farvardin Yasht, "In it (verses 143–144) are praised the fravashis of righteous men and women not only among the Aryas (as the "Avestan" people called themselves), but also among the Turiyas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis; and the personal names, like those of the people, all seem Iranian character".^[15] Hostility between Tuirya and Airya is indicated also in the Farvardtn Yast (vv. 37-8), where the Fravashis of the Just are said to have provided support in battle against the Danus, who appear to be a clan of the Tura people.^[16] Thus in the Avesta, some of the Tuiryas believed in the message of Zoroaster while others rejected the religion.
Similar to the ancient homeland of Zoroaster, the precise geography and location of Turan is unknown.^[17] In post-Avestan traditions they were thought to inhabit the region north of the Oxus, the river separating them from the Iranians. Their presence accompanied by incessant wars with the Iranians, helped to define the latter as a distinct nation, proud of their land and ready to spill their blood in its defense.^[18] The common names of Turanians in Avesta and Shahnameh include Frarasyan,^[19] Aghraethra,^[20] Biderafsh,^[21] Arjaspa^[22] Namkhwast.^[23] The names of Iranian tribes including those of the Turanians that appear in Avesta have been studied by Professor Mayrhofer in his comprehensive book on Avesta personal name etymologies: Iranisches Personennamenbuch, I: Die altiranischen Namen. Faszikel l, Die Avestischen Namen.^[24]




Some linguists derive the word from the Indo-Iranian root *tura- "strong, quick, sword(Pashto)", Pashto turan (thuran) "swordsman". Others link it to old Iranian *tor "dark, black", related to the New Persian tār(ik), Pashto tor (thor), and possibly English dark. In this case, it is a reference to the "dark civilization" of Central Asian nomads in contrast to the "illuminated" Zoroastrian civilization of the settled Ārya.

In Darius inscription they are called Hunae. So it really does seem as Huns are called some Iranic tribes who over the time absorbed more and more Mongolic elements.

The confusion with the early Turks might come from the fact that Huns were part of the Turan people and this term was ultimately adopted by proto-Turkic groups for themselves. But the term Turan predates the Proto Turks by thousands of years.

Turan indeed seems to mean "the dark lands". As Tar/i means in Kurdish dark and an is the Iranic suffix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidarites

 

[Tomenable]

Alan - good points about Huns / Hunae / Xiongnu being at least partially Iranic-speaking.

There is also genetic evidence for presence of autosomally Western Eurasian males among the Xiongnu elite:

"A Western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in North-Eastern Mongolia":

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=B58DE687130C09668A1B0A5BB7808094.f02t01

A Western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia:

We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP), and autosomal short tandem repeats (STR) of three skeletons found in a 2,000-year-old Xiongnu elite cemetery in Duurlig Nars of Northeast Mongolia. This study is one of the first reports of the detailed genetic analysis of ancient human remains using the three types of genetic markers. The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia. This might indicate an Indo-European migration into Northeast Asia 2,000 years ago. Other specimens are a female with mtDNA haplogroup D4 and a male with Y-SNP haplogroup C3 and mtDNA haplogroup D4. (...) There was no close kinship among them. The genetic evidence of U2e1 and R1a1 may help to clarify the migration patterns of Indo-Europeans and ancient East-West contacts of the Xiongnu Empire. Artifacts in the tombs suggested that the Xiongnu had a system of the social stratification. The West Eurasian [Caucasoid] male might show the racial tolerance of the Xiongnu Empire and some insight into the Xiongnu society.

Other papers about the eastern fringes of Caucasoid / West Eurasian settlement:

"Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

"Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers":

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314001161

"Physical Anthropology of Kazakh People and Their Genesis":

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index....thropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis

"Population of Kazakhstan from Bronze Epoch to Present (Paleoanthropological research)":

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Ismagulov/IsmagulovAnthropologyConclusionEn.htm

"In the heartland of Eurasia: the multilocus genetic landscape of Central Asian populations":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20823912

"Analysis of ancient mtDNA from the Xiaohe cemetery: insights into prehistoric population movements in the Tarim Basin, China":

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78

"Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin, China, as early as the early Bronze Age":

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2838831_1741-7007-8-15-1&req=4

"Tall Caucasoid Mummies of China":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRj-IR5Aqbg

"Ancient White Mummies of China":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr5Kq56heIs

More about Caucasoid mummies from the Xiaohe Tomb Complex in the Tarim Basin:

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp185_silk_road.pdf

http://people.ucas.ac.cn/upload/UserFiles/File/20140623180433180905.pdf

http://students.cis.uab.edu/ggabbert/site/xiaohe.html

Oldest cheese and oldest glue so-far discovered, are from Xiaohe Tomb Complex:

Cheese: http://www.livescience.com/43782-mummies-have-oldest-cheese.html

Glue: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...t-xiaohe-cemetery-glue-made-3500-years-020120

 

[Tomenable]

As for the Xiaohe Tomb Complex - people buried there were under R1a-M198 (Y-DNA) and had no any obviously East Asian mtDNA.

Their mtDNA was typically Caucasoid (European + Siberian / ANE + Southern / Western Asian), rather than East Asian. Citation:

"(...) Our results indicate that the people of the Tarim Basin had a diverse maternal ancestry, with origins in Europe, central/eastern Siberia and southern/western Asia. These findings, together with information on the cultural context of the Xiaohe cemetery, can be used to test contrasting hypotheses of route of settlement into the Tarim Basin. (...)"

 

[Alan]

@Tomenable I edited my comment. Please re-read it. I included some other sources. It doesn't only seems like the Huns were partially Iranic speakers, it seems the early Huns were predominantly Iranic speakers and absorbed over time more and more Mongolic/Altaic groups/genes among them until the early Huns were extremely diverse and mixed genetically. Since the earliest Huns are mentioned in the Avesta over thousands of years before they even migrated towards west.

 

[Tomenable]

^ By the way, the only 3 words known from European Hunnic of the 5th century AD, are Indo-European:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...aohe-belong-to?p=467059&viewfull=1#post467059

Little is known about Hunnic language, but this evidence indicates that it could possibly be Indo-European:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Corpus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Indo-European

(...) there are only three words (other than proper names) that are widely accepted by scholars as part of European Hunnic:[5]

medos: a beverage akin to mead
kamos: a barley drink
strava: a funeral feast

All three of these words are considered to have originated in non-Turkic languages, likely satemised Indo-European languages,[9] such as those from the Iranian, Slavic and/or Thraco-Dacian families. (...)

The only three words agreed to have been part of European Hunnic (medos, kamos, strava) are not Turkic,[5] but are probably derived from a satem Indo-European language (...)

Thanks Alan for bringing up additional arguments linking the Huns with IE. I will note down your interesting info.

 

[Tomenable]

By the time of coming to Europe in the 400s they were probably still largely IE-speaking, but with some Turkic-speakers among them.

Genetically they had (or at least some of them) certain level of East Asian admixture, but so do modern IE groups from Central Asia: