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Thread: Remedello an EEF ancestor of modern Italians?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Remedello an EEF ancestor of modern Italians?

    Allentoft 2015 three Remedello genomes from Remedello di Sotto, Italy.

    Name, date of samples.
    RISE487 3483-3107 BC: mtDNA H2a*, Y DNA "I2a1a"
    RISE489 2908-2578 BC: mtDNA X2c1*, Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26)
    RISE486 2134-1773 BC: mtDNA J1c1b, Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26)

    In autosomal makeup Remedello, even the youngest one from ~2000 BC, were basically EEF/Neolithic Europeans. That's all I know. I don't know of any methods that can determine whether there is a direct link between Remedello and modern Italians. I'm going to use this thread to post any results of methods I find in the future to see if there are any links between Remedello and Italians.

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    The fascinating thing about Remedello, as you implied, is that they appear to represent an instance of a culture bearing BOTH: all the indicia of agriculture and herding, and the autosomes indicating admixture with a Stuttgart-like population, but Y Chromosomes of the Hunter Gatherers.

    I wonder what this does to the sex-selection theories out there.

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    And before I forget, I believe there is a strong link between Remedello and modern Europeans.

    Mainland Italians, i.e., NOT Sardinians, in the "archaic" mountainous regions, of historic Samnium, Bruttium, and Lucania, have been shown to bear higher levels of I2-M26, but also very farmer-shifted autosomal genomes.

    It would thus appear that a Remedello-like population spread down into the peninsula, and survived in the remote regions that have resisted outsiders to this day.

    Basically, south-central Italians from the mountains are Remedello...

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    do the Remedello genomes resemble the Ötzi genome ?
    I have a feeling both have some common origin

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @ Fire-Haired,

    Thanks for starting this thread.

    @Moore,
    Do you have the papers and the percentages handy for Samnium, Brutium and Lucania? Thanks in advance.

    The farmers seem to have absorbed both females and males. Of course, there was also already some I2 in the Neolithic farmers in Anatolia before they ever got to Europe. Who knows what else we'll find with more samples? There might be more varieties of I2. Everybody was an HG before they became farmers.

    The most interesting thing to me is that so many people, based on the archaeology: the social stratification, rich graves, arsenical copper, stelae, you name it, saw them as steppe Indo-Europeans, which just goes to show that in some instances culture change doesn't necessitate large scale or even small scale genetic change. Or, some of these cultural changes were moving in the opposite direction. Heretical thought, I know. :)

    As soon as it became clear that Oetzi was G2a and EEF, it looked like Remedello would also be EEF*, given the ties between Oetzi's group and Remedello, as seen most obviously in the fact that Oetzi carried a Remedello style copper ax. In fact, Oetzi had high arsenic levels in his blood. Perhaps he worked with it, too.

    http://www.iceman.it/en/cultural-group

    For what it's worth, this PCA doesn't include Oetzi, but he should be near the Sardinians. The North Italians are pulled a little north (but not much) and further east than Remedello.

    I can't find the Tuscans in that scrum. Maybe Fire-Haired can quickly lay his hands on some other comparisons.

    http://i.imgur.com/qom5d1L.png

    Ed. Remedello is actually MN, although based on this particular PCA, which I take with a huge grain of salt, more EEF like than the other MN groups.

    Last edited by Angela; 12-12-15 at 23:27.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela: Sure! Happy to provide. I'm new here, so I can't post clickable links until I have 10 posts, they tell me. (Rules, rules!)

    But visit the blog called SNPLogic on Blogspot.

    There are 3 posts that contain the summaries of the studies, and links to the percentages in the remote regions of Italy.

    Once you have the URL up, alas, you're going to have to click on the posts from June 2015 and two from March 2014. No matter how hard I try to add part of the URL here, it keeps preventing me.

    There's a wealth of information there.

    I also love your point on being careful to draw conclusions. For years, everyone said Remedello were steppe Eurasians; they had wheel, Indo European customs, etc. But now they have been shown to have Loschbour-like Y Chromosomes and Stuttgart-like autosomes. Fascinating!

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    And let me post the study findings here. It was by Brisghelli in 2014 I believe. It was the only one to sample Italian DNA from the crags and crevices in the Appennines. Most of them go to big cities and Sardinia LOL.

    The study found 10% I2 in historic Samnium. That's extraordinary.

    You combine it with significant I2 in Northern Calabria, rural Lazio, Lucania, etc. (some in the same study, and also from I2 maps based on other studies, plus DNA projects on FTDNA, etc.) and you have a pattern of I2 surviving in remote locations in Italy too.

    Remember with I2 of the western subclades like M26, we are always dealing with tiny percentages, with Sardinia (founder effect) being the exception. 2-10% puts a region among the highest worldwide. It apparently survived in the remoteness of the Pyrenees and the Apennines. That's not that different from G, which survived in the remoteness of the Alps, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    And let me post the study findings here. It was by Brisghelli in 2014 I believe. It was the only one to sample Italian DNA from the crags and crevices in the Appennines. Most of them go to big cities and Sardinia LOL.

    The study found 10% I2 in historic Samnium. That's extraordinary.

    You combine it with significant I2 in Northern Calabria, rural Lazio, Lucania, etc. (some in the same study, and also from I2 maps based on other studies, plus DNA projects on FTDNA, etc.) and you have a pattern of I2 surviving in remote locations in Italy too.

    Remember with I2 of the western subclades like M26, we are always dealing with tiny percentages, with Sardinia (founder effect) being the exception. 2-10% puts a region among the highest worldwide. It apparently survived in the remoteness of the Pyrenees and the Apennines. That's not that different from G, which survived in the remoteness of the Alps, etc.
    Welcome, Moore,
    I'll definitely take a look at your site as soon as I get a minute.

    We've discussed the Brisighelli paper and both Boattini papers extensively here. The search engine should list them if you want to take a look at the discussions. If you do want to look at them and can't find them let me know and I'll see if I have the links somewhere.

    Hold on, I saved the link to this discussion because the thread doesn't say it's about the second Boattini paper...actually Sarno et al.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...+Markers+Italy

    This is one link where Brisighelli at al was discussed.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ht=Brisighelli

    The Boattini discussions are many, as I said, practically one for each yDna, and the search engine should lead you to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    The fascinating thing about Remedello, as you implied, is that they appear to represent an instance of a culture bearing BOTH: all the indicia of agriculture and herding, and the autosomes indicating admixture with a Stuttgart-like population, but Y Chromosomes of the Hunter Gatherers.

    I wonder what this does to the sex-selection theories out there.
    Take in mind there was 12% of "I" among Anatolian farmers too. no one knows if all of the "I" comes from the WHG who were incooperated into the farmers.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    Angela: Sure! Happy to provide. I'm new here, so I can't post clickable links until I have 10 posts, they tell me. (Rules, rules!)

    But visit the blog called SNPLogic on Blogspot.

    There are 3 posts that contain the summaries of the studies, and links to the percentages in the remote regions of Italy.

    Once you have the URL up, alas, you're going to have to click on the posts from June 2015 and two from March 2014. No matter how hard I try to add part of the URL here, it keeps preventing me.

    There's a wealth of information there.

    I also love your point on being careful to draw conclusions. For years, everyone said Remedello were steppe Eurasians; they had wheel, Indo European customs, etc. But now they have been shown to have Loschbour-like Y Chromosomes and Stuttgart-like autosomes. Fascinating!
    This is why I still don't understand how some people can not understand that the "Indo European" culture did not necessary came from one only region (the Steppes) but was more of an network of many cultures from the Steppe all the way into Eastern Europe Central Asia and Western Asia. Most likely starting with mobile herders who imo came rather from the "South" and gave an impulse to other cultures.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    For what it's worth, this PCA doesn't include Oetzi, but he should be near the Sardinians. The North Italians are pulled a little north (but not much) and further east than Remedello.

    I can't find the Tuscans in that scrum. Maybe Fire-Haired can quickly lay his hands on some other comparisons.

    http://i.imgur.com/qom5d1L.png

    Ed. Remedello is actually MN, although based on this particular PCA, which I take with a huge grain of salt, more EEF like than the other MN groups.




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    Remedello can't be used in F3-drift or IBD stats. I don't know any other methods that can test if it has a closer relationship to Italians than other EEFs do. So, I kind of gave up on this. Unless Italy had lots of isolated EEF groups or Remedello were newcomers, there must be shared ancestry with Remedello Italians don't share with other EEFs.

    Their I2a1-M26 Y DNA is important. This is because it has only been found in 1(From Spain) other Neolithic sample out of over 100, and is so popular in Sardinia and has a decent presence in Iberia and Italy.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    And let me post the study findings here. It was by Brisghelli in 2014 I believe. It was the only one to sample Italian DNA from the crags and crevices in the Appennines. Most of them go to big cities and Sardinia LOL.

    The study found 10% I2 in historic Samnium. That's extraordinary.

    .
    This paper below

    Alessio Boattini et al. , "Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata ," PLOS ONE (2013)

    also found 6 of 30 ( 20% ) in coastal ( adriatic ) samnium/sebellic people to be T1.........we cannot assume anything until one finds where these samniums/sebellic people originated from. The Remendello I2 was IIRC similar to the western balkans and different from the sardinians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Hallelujah Sile! You get a hallelujah just for mentioning T!

    T is so omnipresent in Italy; especially near Rome, and in the tribal interior regions. Even among the Sicani and Siculi descendants on Sicily.

    Yet there is an absolute dearth of studies on it, or even interest among genetic genealogists. It's hard to find much online, except that Thomas Jefferson was a member of T. (By the way, how cool is it that he was obsessed with Roman culture, and now with DNA we know he was being possibly the descendant of a Roman soldier in England?)

    I don't attribute to anything nefarious by the way, nor do I even attribute it to malicious ethnocentricism. Initially, the hobby of popular genetics took off in the UK and largely among Anglo-Americans. We are still an English-speaking nation. So Italian haplogroups get much shorter shrift than, say, ones common in England.

    But of all the theories for the spread of R1b, R1b, J2, I2, E, G, etc., almost no one posts anything about T, other than generic stuff like, "it came with farming and was one farming marker." Whereas even for E, you get these wild speculations that it was the marker of master metallurgists!

    In general though, whether speaking of Remedello, or genetic studies in general, or T, I would like to see more studies in Italy, France, Romania, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Remedello can't be used in F3-drift or IBD stats.
    Why not and who says?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post



    Thanks, Pax Augusta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why not and who says?
    Too few markers in the tests required, but I'll check. Then I'll see of Otzei will work. And David Wesoloski said this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @ Fire-Haired,

    Thanks for starting this thread.

    @Moore,
    Do you have the papers and the percentages handy for Samnium, Brutium and Lucania? Thanks in advance.

    The farmers seem to have absorbed both females and males. Of course, there was also already some I2 in the Neolithic farmers in Anatolia before they ever got to Europe. Who knows what else we'll find with more samples? There might be more varieties of I2. Everybody was an HG before they became farmers.

    The most interesting thing to me is that so many people, based on the archaeology: the social stratification, rich graves, arsenical copper, stelae, you name it, saw them as steppe Indo-Europeans, which just goes to show that in some instances culture change doesn't necessitate large scale or even small scale genetic change. Or, some of these cultural changes were moving in the opposite direction. Heretical thought, I know. :)

    As soon as it became clear that Oetzi was G2a and EEF, it looked like Remedello would also be EEF*, given the ties between Oetzi's group and Remedello, as seen most obviously in the fact that Oetzi carried a Remedello style copper ax. In fact, Oetzi had high arsenic levels in his blood. Perhaps he worked with it, too.

    http://www.iceman.it/en/cultural-group

    For what it's worth, this PCA doesn't include Oetzi, but he should be near the Sardinians. The North Italians are pulled a little north (but not much) and further east than Remedello.

    I can't find the Tuscans in that scrum. Maybe Fire-Haired can quickly lay his hands on some other comparisons.

    http://i.imgur.com/qom5d1L.png

    Ed. Remedello is actually MN, although based on this particular PCA, which I take with a huge grain of salt, more EEF like than the other MN groups.


    some scientists (ex Yugoslavs I think) wrote a paper about change in way of life without demic imput; in fact the extract said the 2 can exist at some level: always the 2 smae "pure" theories": all demic, all acculturation; the paper was interesting in that it evocates the possibility of a tells civilisation very centralized when ores ressources (and other ressources) were seldom, the big chiftains keeping power as they controlled ways of circulation of trade, and that they lost this power when ores (bu example) became known in close proximity, contourning the central power and creating new centers - smaller - of economic production, exchanges and new more local powers with smaller towns and so on... in fact South Central Europe showed copper without too much new DNA at our present stage of knowledge, and also some introgressions of foreign tribes (more common later).
    my personal thought is that very often a cultural change needs the presence of new human elements (followed new DNA at some level) but after the new culture can gain ground without too much new human (demic) imput... its economic success can make its politic success, sometimes without changing the language; History show us a lot of different ways of changes in population. That said the EEFlike DNA can also be parlty due to some Western Anatolia demic introgression at Copper and Bronze, maybe pushed by the coming into Anatolia of people from more Eastern places (South Caspian)?

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    Here are the links I promised, now that I can post them.

    Fairly up-to-date survey on I2 in remote regions of Western Europe, relevant to Remedello:

    http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2014_03_01_archive.html

    Map of Ancient I2-M26 Finds, Including Remedello:

    http://snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/06...rstanding.html

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    Angela
    I'm not sure it's the same syrvey but I found this when looking after the paper I mentioned about transition at Bronze: it's written by Polish scientistK (not Yugoslavs)
    K. Dziegielewski, MS Przybyla, A. Gawlik
    "Migrations in Bronze and Early Iron Age in Europe"

    it's safer to ask to God rather than to His saints!
    Even if reasonable, I think the authors are rather supporters of the not-too-much-demic moves theories. In the case of South Central Europe it's possible they would be right... But an other metric survey (the first: Zsoffmann upon the Carpathian Basin) confirms Baden Culture by instance (early Copper first steps in central Europe?) contained in Hungary new southern elements from South-East (Near East? W-Anatolia only?); so movements of population at some scale before true Bronze Age. I regreat the new vocabulary used by today metric anthropology, using geographic unprecise references for physcial types without more taxinomy nor measures (they take them but keep thme for themselves!).

    to answer to other forumers, I think te concept of tribal male warlike ligneages keeping females among vainquished populations has some value at some time in some ethnies (Steppes by instance); but after some stabilization of durable settlements I think other male and female - "autochtonous" - were incorporated as time passed: so I'm not so amazed by the apparent male, female ligneages and auDNA discrepancies.

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    PDF to google.

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    I should read papers about Remedello C. I've only a generalist book upon Bronze Age in Europe, a compilation by J. BRIARD.
    in it I red Remedello was a well organized and "shining" group, of Chalcolithic culture influenced in old time by BBs; surely some ties with Rhone Cultures. The Unetice influences came later. It recalls me a metric survey about Eneolithic Mediterranean Europe by CHARLES (old: 1950-60) saying about Italy the Chalcotihic there took 2 forms: a so called "mediterranean" one and a "northern" one, mixed everywhere but with two opposite poles of dominence, so their names. Charles saw a 'balkanic-mediterranean' element coming in Italy by land through North, from Balkans. I suppose the "mediterranean chalco" came from Egea without knowing more. Remedello so is not typical Bronze? and we know from papers upon Hungary auDNA of Chalco and even Bronze that the "steppic" mediated auDNA was weak then, we saw rather a so called WHG DNA rising and seemingly only in Bronze - it's true our ancient DNA is still scarce enough for making to selfconfident conclusions.

    concerning Y-I2a1-M26 I red it was found today by example in ancient maritime megalithic regions; by the way the Sardinian M26 - founder effect or not - is by definition in a maritime position - the same concerning the eastern shores of Adriatic. Maybe the last SNPs of M26 were born by West-Balkans people firstly acculturated by people of the Central Balkan Copper settlements? just a track, because maybe we 'll discover other more numerous Y-I-M26 in other locations changing hypothesis; either I-M26 is a peculiar well defined source of I2a1 and linked to megalithism (a) and first knowledge of metals without "industrialization", b) and only some contacts with regions of true metallurgists), or M26 was largely distributed but was acculturated at last by first Copper people from East on their road...

  23. #23
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Isn't available an autosomal analysis of these of Remedello?
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    *If* ydna I was related to indigenous HGs and if it's generally accepted that non-sedentary HGs find it hard to become farmers but not herders

    http://resources3.news.com.au/images...1-raparapa.jpg

    then maybe ydna I is related to the WHG resurgence via recruitment as herders and an agricultural collapse at some point favored the herding regions i.e. maybe there were occasional repopulations into crop-centric regions when crops failed from neighboring hilly regions that relied on herding?

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    how much " Remedello" score the Sardinians in the calculators?

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