Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Y-Chromosomal Lineages of Latvians

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Y-Chromosomal Lineages of Latvians

    Y-Chromosomal Lineages of Latvians in the Context of the Genetic Variation of the Eastern-Baltic Region

    Liana Pliss, Līga Timša, Siiri Rootsi, Kristiina Tambets, Inese Pelnena, Egija Zole, Agrita Puzuka, Areta Sabule, Sandra Rozane, Baiba Lace, Vaidutis Kucinskas, Astrida Krumina, Renate Ranka and Viesturs Baumanis.

    Summary

    Variations of the nonrecombining Y-chromosomal region were investigated in 159 unrelated Baltic-speaking ethnic Latvians from four different geographic regions, using 28 biallelic markers and 12 short tandem repeats. Eleven different haplogroups (hgs) were detected in a regionally homogeneous Latvian population, among which N1c, R1a, and I1 cover more than 85% of its paternal lineages. When compared its closest geographic neighbors, the composition of the Latvian Y-chromosomal gene pool was found to be very similar to those of Lithuanians and Estonians. Despite the comparable frequency distribution of hg N1c in Latvians and Lithuanians with the Finno-Ugric-speaking populations from the Eastern coast of the Baltic Sea, the observed differences in allelic variances of N1c haplotypes between these two groups are in concordance with the previously stated hypothesis of different dispersal ways of this lineage in the region. More than a third of Latvian paternal lineages belong specifically to a recently defined R1a-M558 hg, indicating an influence from a common source within Eastern Slavic populations on the formation of the present-day Latvian Y-chromosome gene pool.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...12130/abstract

    Not much surprises to be honest. Will give more detailed feedback later.

  2. #2
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Statistics.
    N1c1 = 42%
    R1A1 = 38% (of those 35% M558+, 3% M458+)
    R1B = 8%
    I1 = 6%
    I2 = 3%
    Other (E, F, G, Q) = 3%

    R1a-M558 % looks strange to me. But it looks like they included Z92+ under general M558+, otherwise it is hard to explain.


    I checked regional % as well. Some paradoxes:
    =N1C1 ratio goes down as we move from East Lettigallian (Baltic) to West Livonian (FU) folk.
    Eastern - 48%
    Central - 44%
    South-West - 36%
    North-West - 31%

    =R1A is lowest in East (29%) and highest in North-West (45%). NW is Livonian lands, East is Latgalian.

    On other regional things. R1B is highest (15%) in South-West which makes sense. I1 is highest (14%) in North-West which is strange. Former Livonian North-West - I1+R1a land?Little N1c?

    edit: also this study is consistent with previous few that noted that Baltic (Letts, Lithuanians) have more N1C1 than Estonians. By around 5-10 percent points.

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Table S3 Shared haplotypes among analyzed populations - this is interesting.

    Couple of points - of 10 Latvian I1 haplotypes unique are 4, but the other 6 are shared with Finns and Karelians (!). Given I1 is highest in former Livonian lands, it starts to appear that Latvian I1 is of Finnish type for most part?
    R1a haplotypes are equally shared with Lithuanians and Finno-Ugric folk. N1c haplotypes are not shared with populations outside of Latvia, strange. I would expect they would be shared with Lithuanians.

    Anyway, I hope one day instead of haplotypes, they check for L1025, M2782 for N1c1 in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    thanks

    you should summarise it with the only other paper I know about the latvians

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thanks

    you should summarise it with the only other paper I know about the latvians

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.00429.x/full
    It is perfectly consistent with that and other studies as far as frequencies of Y. Some percentpoints difference here and there.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,463
    Points
    56,443
    Level
    73
    Points: 56,443, Level: 73
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 607
    Overall activity: 18.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro
    also this study is consistent with previous few that noted that Baltic (Letts, Lithuanians) have more N1C1 than Estonians.
    More N1c than ethnic Estonians, or more N1c than inhabitants of Estonia? Ethnic Estonians are only 2/3 of the population:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...#Ethnic_groups

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...onia#Languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoni...n#Family_names

    Also there has been quite a lot of mixing between ethnic groups in Estonia, especially during the multi-culti Soviet period.

  7. #7
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    More N1c than ethnic Estonians, or more N1c than inhabitants of Estonia? Ethnic Estonians are only 2/3 of the population:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...#Ethnic_groups

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...onia#Languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoni...n#Family_names

    Also there has been quite a lot of mixing between ethnic groups in Estonia, especially during the multi-culti Soviet period.
    In these studies they take folk who call themselves Estonian.

    Otherwise counterargument is there are more % of Estonians in Estonia than Latvians in Latvia...
    So, if anything our N1c would be diluted most... But it is consistent with our Southern bros...
    Also regionally, formerly Livonian regions have less N than East. NorthWest Latvia is most similar to Estonia (higher I1, less N, same R1a).

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    The hotspot of N1c1 is L_tts tribe (East Lithuania, East Latvia). Lettigalians, Lithuanians, terra Lettia (Jersika), etc.

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    332
    Points
    6,281
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,281, Level: 23
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 269
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    What sort of R1b subclades were found? Are they mostly the same ones found in other Balto-Slavic populations, or are there any unusual ones?

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    What sort of R1b subclades were found? Are they mostly the same ones found in other Balto-Slavic populations, or are there any unusual ones?
    Well, they are still doing comparisons on haplotypes not subclades (except m558, m458 for R1a). I can check if our haplotypes matched those of neighboring folk or not.

    But..keep in mind those are just haplotypes...

    In general r1b levels are in tact with all neighbors, except increase in SW Latvia (Kurzeme), which had more German connections than rest of Latvia.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    What sort of R1b subclades were found? Are they mostly the same ones found in other Balto-Slavic populations, or are there any unusual ones?
    Maybe the R1b where late into the area , came via the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Order

    The germans from this order where mostly Saxons and Thurgians

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    In these studies they take folk who call themselves Estonian.

    Otherwise counterargument is there are more % of Estonians in Estonia than Latvians in Latvia...
    So, if anything our N1c would be diluted most... But it is consistent with our Southern bros...
    Also regionally, formerly Livonian regions have less N than East. NorthWest Latvia is most similar to Estonia (higher I1, less N, same R1a).
    thanks

    following my T ydna , estonia has between 3 and 5% of T ..........I find the Latvians with zero T ydna strange................maybe Estonia was the landing and departing area fro the vikings slave trade, ie, from Scandinavia and the east baltic region...........or maybe the Danish kingdom

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    998
    Points
    12,842
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,842, Level: 34
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Maybe the R1b where late into the area , came via the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Order

    The germans from this order where mostly Saxons and Thurgians
    Some of it, but like I mentioned the % of r1b in Latvia is not higher than Belarus that never experienced Livonian order.

    Only exception SW Latvia (Kurland), but even there it is a good question how it got there. Scandinav colony 650-900, Livonian Order, German colonists after 1905 revolt, etc..

    In general it looks like so called German nobility of Livonia was not that German.

    Side note - could not find more info on R1b, they provided only haplotypes/not subclades in the free supplementaries.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    246
    Points
    9,303
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,303, Level: 28
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 47
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thanks

    following my T ydna , estonia has between 3 and 5% of T ..........I find the Latvians with zero T ydna strange................maybe Estonia was the landing and departing area fro the vikings slave trade, ie, from Scandinavia and the east baltic region...........or maybe the Danish kingdom

    Sile, this information is wrong. There are haplogroup T members in Lithuania, Sweden and Finland but are not found in Latvia nor Estonia. All found Estonian K* belongs to L haplogroups, specifically to L2. Haplogroup L2 has their highest diversity in Europe, is found to be of deep European origin.

    These Estonian haplotypes are publicly available and you can compare to the L2 haplotypes found in the FTDNA haplogroup L Project.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Sile, this information is wrong. There are haplogroup T members in Lithuania, Sweden and Finland but are not found in Latvia nor Estonia. All found Estonian K* belongs to L haplogroups, specifically to L2. Haplogroup L2 has their highest diversity in Europe, is found to be of deep European origin.

    These Estonian haplotypes are publicly available and you can compare to the L2 haplotypes found in the FTDNA haplogroup L Project.
    You should discuss this with the owner of this site Maciano and ask him where he got his Ydna T numbers from for Estonia

    the onnly ones I seen was a test of 207 estonians of which 3.5% where T ydna , but all spoke a uralic language.

    then there is the 2000 paper , since recalculated which has
    haplogroup among Estonian men is N, found among 34 percent of those tested, followed by R1a, found in about 32 percent. I1 is found in 15%, R1b in 8%, T in 3.5%, I2* and/or I2a in 3%, E1b1b in 2.5%, J2 in 1%, I2b in 0.5%, and Q in 0.5%.

    I did once see/recall a wiki note saying these estonians where all ydna L
    Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region............paper does not state which marker L or T it was
    someone stated they put the numbers through a program and said all the L are
    L2-L595



    I care little on what they are , T or L , they where once in union as LT-P326

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •