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Thread: Teaser: EEF was 90% Anatolian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Another thing, R1a z93 found in Yamna,
    Yamnaya horizon is huge. What part of Yamnaya were the Z93 from?

    a
    nd going by the tweets it seems like from an EEF(Neolithic) culture (Most likely Cucuteni-tripolye).
    Cucuteni had influence in West of Yamnaya. I'm expecting Maykop farmers influence in the East. Both carried extensive EEF/ENF admixture.

    Those guys seem to be the ancestors of both Sintashta and Corded Ware. As some people have speculated Corded Ware isn't the ancestor of Sintashta but both derive from the same source.
    One cultural source yes, but geographically they were separated into few groups. Otherwise we would have same R1a and R1b subclades in all IE cultures, but we don't. I'm still baffled with this one big IE culture of unmixed populations. How did they pull it off, lol.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Exactly, thats also what I proposed. A mid-late Neolithic expansion of J2 with a different type of farmers, (probably now Teal admixed).
    Very possible, I always thought about them as pottery or copper age expansion. One of the important technology period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Actually, HG haplogroups of Y-DNA are quite strong in modern Europe, even though HG autosomal ancestry is less so. By contrast EEF ancestry is higher autosomally, but they were 60% G2a in terms of Y-DNA, and most of this is gone in modern Europe (only Georgia has such a level of G2a).

    So far there is no evidence that any clades of I were present in Anatolia. Hunter-Gatherers in Anatolia could have different Y-DNA haplogroups. All haplogroups were eventually carried by various groups of HGs (unless these haplogroups are younger than the emergence of agriculture).
    I'm not following you.Unless Razib Khan misheard, there was indeed yDna I present in the Anatolian Neolithic 7000 BC. If they were the same I2a as some of the I2a in the Neolithic communities in Europe then Alan is saying it could have been carried into Europe with the farmers. I'm saying we can't know that until we get the subclade information.

    @LeBrok
    Razib seems to indicate that the yDna "I" and "C" were minority lineages among these people. For Anatolia to be an LGM refuge for WHG wouldn't we have to have G2a or perhaps H in Europe in the Mesolithic as well as I and C? (Not that I don't think that's possible at least in terms of the Greek islands etc. There was that intriguing study showing the Mesolithic mtDna in that area was very "Near Eastern" farmer like already. Boattini et al also found that one cluster of G2a in Italy is very old.") Of course, he may have misheard. The paper will tell us.

    As to the early HG days on the steppe, it does seem like 25% "Armenian-like". It apparently reached the 50% level only later. I don't know how much of it was ANE. I've seen internet estimates of maybe 20%? From the things Patterson has said, I think the WHG was minimal.

    I think you're right: I think that Yamnaya R1b moved elsewhere, perhaps some down through the Caucasus, maybe some into southern Europe (the Mycenaens) having picked up more "farmer" along the way. I think the "Celts" were earlier, perhaps?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know what to make of this slow drip of "Armenian like" genes into these steppe people over such a long period of time.
    This is because crops didn't grow well in the Steppe and forested northern area. From now on there was more like a steady trickle of farmer genome into population of steppe and forest, mostly when times were good for farming in the steppe. EEF steadily grew in Steppe over millennia of contact. This is how I see it.

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    I think yDNA, I, J2(b?)and C1 in this Anatolian samples, might represent the "WHG " like ancestry in EEF.

    We know that C, I is connected to WHG/UHG like ancestry. J2b? as close cousin to I and K possibly too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is because crops didn't grow well in the Steppe and forested northern area. From now on there was more like a steady trickle of farmer genome into population of steppe and forest, mostly when times were good for farming in the steppe. EEF steadily grew in Steppe over millennia of contact. This is how I see it.
    Yes, that makes sense, but only through female gene flow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Goodness, I forgot! No E-V13 or E-M78. Either it hadn't arrived yet, or it (or it's precursor) was already in Europe. So maybe the Natufian was G2?
    All signs point to Natufians being G2. At least I got used to this idea, from my initial E hg guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, that makes sense, but only through female gene flow?
    In Samara samples yes. We'll see what samples from other communities tell us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Razib seems to indicate that the yDna "I" and "C" were minority lineages among these people. For Anatolia to be an LGM refuge for WHG wouldn't we have to have G2a or perhaps H in Europe in the Mesolithic as well as I and C? (Not that I don't think that's possible at least in terms of the Greek islands etc. There was that intriguing study showing the Mesolithic mtDna in that area was very "Near Eastern" farmer like already. Boattini et al also found that one cluster of G2a in Italy is very old.") Of course, he may have misheard. The paper will tell us.
    We can suppose that WHG from Anatolian refuge had spread into Europe few thousands of years earlier, when LGM was gone around 18 to 12kya, before farmers G2a colonized Western Anatolia at 12-10kya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    In Samara samples yes. We'll see what samples from other communities tell us.
    It's late so I'm not going to look it up :) but it's just occurred to me that there was no farming on the steppe of any kind in 5200 BC...not until much, much later. David Anthony thought it spread from Neolithic Europe and didn't go very far east, so now I'm not so sure this explains it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Anatolia is shaping up as hunter-gatherer refuge during LGM. If not a true refuge than easily accessible continuity with Balkans and Europe in general. Thanks to a land bridge through dry Bosporus, before Black Sea flood.
    Unlikely refuge more likely continuity of WHG/UHG like H&G before they merged with Basal Eurasian like groups in Anatolia and became EEF. UHG/WHG like ancestry in EEF is up to 50-60%. This I and C1 Haplogroup (possibly also J2b?) represent this UHG/WHG like ancestry. Thats my theory.



    Any numbers on how different, 25% of replacement or even as much as 50%?
    Anatolia(West and Central Turkey) insane 50-60%!


    Any clarification if this Armenian like is from WHG/ANE side or ENF? To see 50% of Armenian like was a bit "shocking" in still HG/herders societies. 25% is more like it, and possibly half of it being WHG/ANE admixture.
    Not really shocking, they were herders. Herding is an agricultural technique evolved around the Zagros mountains. It's more interesting to see 25% farmer/herder DNA in Samara H&G. This is not EEF but Teal (what you call here ENF). And it's (Bronze Age Armenian like. Not to confuse with modern groups.

    I hope we will see more defined "Armenian like" finally. How much EEF/ENF?
    With "Armenian like" here they mean the BaArmenian sample this is like 4/5 West Asian + 1/5 North European.

    Some people suggest it was a beginning of Scythian/Sarmatian culture. I'm reading a discovery of z93 there, right? I believe Z93 pushed R1b from East to the West.
    Scythian possible, Sarmatian unlikely those are a group of middle Iranic period going by recent genetic data most likely arriving from West Iran (Media) and mixing with the local Scythian groups. With other words a combination between Medes and Scythians.


    Now it will be great to figure out where these R1b went to! Western and South Europe? Some through Caucasus into Anatolia? I don't mean the first or even even second wave of R1b into Europe. I'm implying entrance of Celts, Mycenaeans and Hittites at this time period. The last remaining R1b of the Steppe.
    Interesting I find here that the Samara EHG sample had 25% Teal admixture. This could indicate where the R1b Haplogroup came from. Before R1b was replaced by R1a in the Steppes. It probably went East and West (becoming Afanasevo and Proto Celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Very possible, I always thought about them as pottery or copper age expansion. One of the important technology period.
    J2(b?) here either represents the UHG/WHG ancestry in EEF or it is an early arrival of Eastern farmers from the east. correcrt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    J2(b?) here either represents the UHG/WHG ancestry in EEF or it is an early arrival of Eastern farmers from the east. correcrt.
    I believe there was only one and uniform source of farmers of 100% G2a haplogroup, the Natufians. All the rest of haplogroups were picked up during their expansion. Perhaps J2 was present somewhere from Eastern Anatola to Mesopotamia and expended from there with farmers during one of their technological revolutions; husbandry, pottery, textiles, copper, better village organization, etc.

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    Close genetic relationship of Neolithic Anatolians to early European farmers

    And, whats the news?
    Ever heard of Archaeology?
    Archaeology has already illustrated that fact decades ago; Along with the fact that the sedentary-agricultural spread was physical not cultural; A fact that Genetics (testing Neolithic (farmers) corpses all over Europe) completely manifested;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Scythian possible, Sarmatian unlikely those are a group of middle Iranic period going by recent genetic data most likely arriving from West Iran (Media) and mixing with the local Scythian groups. With other words a combination between Medes and Scythians.
    Few Alans were probably mixed with North Caucasians, but both Scythians and Sarmatians were an off shoot of Sintasha, so surely not West Asian.

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    Could that Near Eastern / Armenian / "Teal" admixture in Yamnaya come from the Caucasus region?:

    David Anthony writes that Indo-European speakers had close contacts with Proto-Kartvelian speakers:

    Quote Originally Posted by D. W. Anthony
    (...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)
    Modern group most genetically similar to "Teal" people, are not Armenians, but Mingrelians from Georgia:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/1...artvelian.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski
    I've made a discovery. The Near Eastern-related ancestors of the Yamnaya steppe pastoralists were also the ancestors of present-day Georgian Mingrelians, or their very close relatives, and in all likelihood speakers of Kartvelian, which has a long history in the Caucasus. (...)

    TreeMix is very specific and precise about this. In my analyses, based on a couple of different methods, the Mingrelians are the only population chosen as a source for the Near Eastern-related ancestry in the Yamnaya.

    Keep in mind, this is an unsupervised test and the algorithm has an infinite number of choices, because migration edges can run from any part of the tree, and yet it chooses the Mingrelians. By the way, if anyone's wondering, I did also try the Bronze Age Armenians, to no avail. (...)
    Mingrelians live in north-western Georgia, around the town of Zugdidi:



    So, apparently we don't need to hypothesize any migrations/admixtures from the "Near East proper" (= areas south of the Caucasus) to explain Yamnaya genetics. They were a mixture of EHG ancestry and farmers from the Caucasus region (= between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea).

    Check also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture

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    Georgians are still 80% Middle Eastern or so...

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    Georgians are mostly "Caucasus-Gedrosia", not "Near East" (not Levant-Anatolia).

    I think that EEF were mostly Levant-Anatolia = "Syrian", not "Mingrelian" / "Armenian".

    Caucasus-Gedrosia admixture peaks in Georgia and in Iran (hence it's name):



    The best proxy for Near Eastern ancestry of Neolithic farmers in Europe, are modern Syrians (and Sardinians of course).

    While the best proxy for "Teal" ancestry of Yamnaya, are Mingrelians from Georgia, and - to a lesser extent - Armenians.

    IIRC, also modern Kalash people have high level of that "Teal" ancestry.

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    We cannot label all of that as "Near Eastern". Those were two distinct admixtures. The one carried by Early Neolithic EEF farmers who expanded into Europe from Western Anatolia, can be called "Levant-Anatolia" or maybe "Levant-Anatolia-Mesopotamia", while the one carried later by Proto-Indo-Europeans during the Copper Age (Eneolithic) and the Bronze Age, was a different admixture, it can be called "Caucasus-Gedrosia".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Could that Near Eastern / Armenian / "Teal" admixture in Yamnaya come from the Caucasus region?:

    David Anthony writes that Indo-European speakers had close contacts with Proto-Kartvelian speakers:



    Modern group most genetically similar to "Teal" people, are not Armenians, but Mingrelians from Georgia:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/1...artvelian.html



    Mingrelians live in north-western Georgia, around the town of Zugdidi:



    So, apparently we don't need to hypothesize any migrations/admixtures from the "Near East proper" (= areas south of the Caucasus) to explain Yamnaya genetics. They were a mixture of EHG ancestry and farmers from the Caucasus region (= between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea).

    Check also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture
    Georgians ultimately arrived there from the Near East. As I said in the past what is today Caucasus like was once Mesopotamian, East Anatolian and Iranian P,lateau like. BaArmenian actually look more like NorthCaucasians, Tuscans with something Tajik like(without the East Eurasian admixture).

    Proto Caucasian languages seem to have started off slightly SOuth.

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    Georgians cluster with Iranians. So they are middle easterners with a North and South Asian drift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Few Alans were probably mixed with North Caucasians, but both Scythians and Sarmatians were an off shoot of Sintasha, so surely not West Asian.
    Going by the Andronovo theory ALL Iranic tribes started off ultimately in Sintashta-BMAC.


    It's frustrating when people comment on things they don't really seem to understand. When Sarmatians formed, that was during Middle Iranic period which is between 300 BC and 800 AD. Sintashta died out by 1800 BC. Do the math.

    In this month a Russian paper about Sarmatian-Alan DNA appeared those guys had typical ydna found in West Iran and West India and their aDNA shows strong signs of admixture from West Iranic groups.


    Add to that we have historic accounts and strong arguments for an Median origin of Sarmatians. All those ancient writers were not high on drugs, they knew the regions. And recently more and more of what Herodotus said seems correct despite it being claimed to be bogus in the past. (Herodotus was right about the Armenians, Phrygian, Greek connection, He also was right about the Massagetae, Alans and the Medes- Arianoi connection).

    Some Greek-Roman sources on this

    The peoples of Madai first dwelt in North-west Iran, being called the Medes along with Medan. Their capital was Hagmatana (Persian) or Agbatana in Greek. They were called Ma-da-ai, in the Assyrian inscriptions and became associated and linked up with the Medanites who invaded their territory from the west. Thus the names Madai and Medes were used interchangeably, but the Medanites formed the ruling class.
    After the defeat of the Scythians in 584 BC, a colony of Medes was established along the Don River. They thus moved north of the Black Sea and into Scythia
    The Greeks called them the Sauro-Matae and they spoke the Scythian tongue which was much like that of the peoples of Persia and were also known as Surmatai or Syrmatai. It would appear that many Elamites, who dwelt adjacent to the Madai in Iran, probably migrated with them into south-eastern Europe [see Is.21:2].
    Many ancient writers refer to them. Strabo mentions the Matiani or Matieni as does Herodotus and Pliny. Ammianus Marcellinus speaks of the Sauro-matians dwelling near the Hister (modern Danube). We also know that the Sea of Azov was anciently known as Maeotis Palus; on its shores dwelt the Maioti or Maiotiki.

    The Sarmatian dagger and sword used by these people were exactly like that of the Medes. Researcher, Sulimirski, maintains that "the Sarmatians were...closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians."
    Rostovtzeff wrote that "the Scythian kingdom—a formation almost completely Iranian, a northern counter-part of the kingdom of Darius and Xerxes...the Sarmatians, whose Iranian nationality is not disputed".
    Herodotus wrote that the Medes were beginning to settle in the Ukraine even in his time. He maintained that there was a people who "dress in the Median fashion" and who "claim to be colonists from Media" that "live north of Thrace...beyond the Danube". Pliny noted that "Next come the two mouths of the river Don, where the inhabitants are the Sarmatae, said to be descended from the Medes".
    In ancient Texts (Bible, Tora, Quran) the Medes are reffered to as Madai. Herodotus and Greeks often called them Matiene and according to Greek_Roman sources the name Sauro-matae basically means "Lizard" Medes (probably because of their armor which resembled that of lizards).



    As we know and as I pointed out previously often enough. The Parthians themselves are directly descend of Medes (mostly Medes themselves) but had an early Scythian Elite admixture (the Arsacids). This is also pointed out by Roman sources.

    As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes,
    Attachment 7447

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Georgians cluster with Iranians. So they are middle easterners with a North and South Asian drift.
    By any chance aren't you once again the same guy (with different account) who called Kardu a light skinned Iraqi? Cause you really sound like him.

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    "Medes" and "Persians" were a mix of : 95% Middle Eastern farmers and 5% of Sintasha nomads. Sarmatians were native of Northern Kazakhstan and later mixed with Scythians and proto Slavs in Eastern Europe. All those groups were an offshoot of Sintasha and Corded Ware. Nothing to do with MENAs from Iraq and Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    "Medes" and "Persians" were a mix of : 95% Middle Eastern farmers and 5% of Sintasha nomads. Sarmatians were native of Northern Kazakhstan and later mixed with Scythians and proto Slavs in Eastern Europe. All those groups were an offshoot of Sintasha and Corded Ware. Nothing to do with MENAs from Iraq and Iran.
    5% Sintashta since you have ancient Mede and Persian genomes by hand. Just in case you didn't know even modern Persians and Kurds can be labeled as ~30- 40% Sintashta.

    You have as much knowledge about history and archeology as a Warlord about democracy.

    Yep you are that confused Joeyc. keep throwing unscientific claims and comments into the room based on wrong completely wrong arguments.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-10-15 at 03:52.

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