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Thread: Teaser: EEF was 90% Anatolian

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    Talking about being confused. LoL!Dude, you and Iranians cluster with Georgian like Eastern farmers. You have ZERO relonship with Sintasha. Get over it!
    Last edited by Sigfrido; 10-10-15 at 18:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So as expected, I is not really a Haplogroup taken by WHG groups but always a local part of the EEF.

    As I proposed in the past, I think Haplogroup "I" was once a relatively frequent Haplogroup from Iran all the way into Europe.

    Oh an those Samara (R1b?) also had 25% "Teal like". Nice seems the Teal wives theory is dying a slow death.
    ; you are jumping to conclusions a bit quickly I thin - what kind of Y-I??? the mesolothic VASTE distribution (allover from Western Europe to Steppes, I think) of Y-I put this migration into very old old times I suppose - we can also suppose as some scientisst the Y-I subclades of today in Transcaucasus are return ones? Evidently we can suppose that Y-I* came in ancient times from a region close to Y-J* cradle, I don"t contest that but for the present question of Neolithic???
    concerning mtDNA and auDNA through females (and surely some males, except mt one!) I agree it could be old enough, BUT not linked by force to PIE period: Neolithic reached Steppes before Metals I suppose, and not by force (again) through Caucasus only... let's wait and see

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    Pastoralism is very often tied to agriculture at some stage - and Steppes are vaste, we can expect some different leves of penetration in ancient times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    There's no mention of R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya or CT. There's mention of R1a in Srubnaya period and "Bronze age" R1a-Z93 in Samara. Srubnaya is 1800-1200 BC so younger than Sintashta and Corded Ware.
    useful precision, Fire Haired

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, that makes sense, but only through female gene flow?


    I wrote that before but I'm not sure all this "neolithical" mt DNA is truly or uniquely southern??? some could have moved southwards too, not only northwards?
    mt DNA is so complicated in distribution of subclades!

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    Alan: With "Armenian like" here they mean the BaArmenian sample this is like 4/5 West Asian + 1/5 North European.
    I don't think so. I think the Haak et al paper specifically says "modern" Armenian like, not BaArmenian like.

    Alan: Unlikely refuge more likely continuity of WHG/UHG like H&G before they merged with Basal Eurasian like groups in Anatolia and became EEF. UHG/WHG like ancestry in EEF is up to 50-60%. This I and C1 Haplogroup (possibly also J2b?) represent this UHG/WHG like ancestry.
    I don't think we know yet where "Basal Eurasian" hunter-gatherers mixed with UHGs. (We don't even precisely know yet how "Basal Eurasian" is defined, where it was centered, etc.etc. Hopefully, this paper will tell us.) Perhaps the admixture took place in central or northwestern Anatolia, perhaps it was in southeast Anatolia/north-central Levant. The first farmers to leave the Near East were the ones who set off from the area of southeast Anatolia/north-central Levant for Cyprus, and I don't know of any indication that they were appreciably different from the ones further up the coast. Time will tell, I suppose

    LeBrok: Very possible, I always thought about them as pottery or copper age expansion. One of the important technology period.
    You mean the mid-to-late Neolithic that perhaps brought J2 and E-V13 to Europe 4700 BC? I think that's too late for pottery. These are some commonly accepted dates:
    PPN1:10,000 BCE to 8,800 BCE (Earliest sites perhaps Gobekli Tepe, then Levant sites
    PPN2: 8800 BCE to 6400 BCE
    PN: 6400 BCE

    Given those dates, I hope the paper goes into some detail about the archaeological setting of these 7000 BCE samples. By the time of Kumtepe, which Fire-Haired brought up, which is 4700 BCE (the same date when we find J2 and E-V13 in Europe) you're way into the Pottery Neolithic. Interestingly, if this source is correct, they were already using copper. (although no evidence of copper making) So, could this have any connection to the appearance of copper working in the Balkans?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe

    I would advise caution, however, as I'm not sure about the reliability of Wiki as a source.

    I also think we have to be cautious about assuming that the authors meant that the Kumtepe sample was different because it had ANE. So far as I know the paper hasn't been published, and the genome hasn't been published. Perhaps it's more southerly gene flow in place of, or in addition to, ANE, which would make sense if E-V13 is not Mesolithic in Europe but came later from the south.

    (Just parenthetically, from reading up more on Kumtepe, this whole Troad area was considered the "Aegean world" by 4700 BCE, not really the "Anatolian" world. That has implications genetically as well.)

    Tomenable: Could that Near Eastern / Armenian / "Teal" admixture in Yamnaya come from the Caucasus region?
    From south of it originally and/or as I've been saying for years, from the direction of Kazakstan, which had experienced its own genetic flow from the south.

    Tomenable: Modern group most genetically similar to "Teal" people, are not Armenians, but Mingrelians from Georgia:
    Georgians are a modern population with ancestry from the north. Armenians are also a modern population, of course. However, the Reich Lab has access to and is probably quite far along in analyzing all sorts of ancient samples from the Caucasus and beyond. If Lazaridis is still calling the admixing population "modern Armenian-like", I'll stick with that until the Lab publishes something that changes it.

    Tomenable: We cannot label all of that as "Near Eastern". Those were two distinct admixtures. The one carried by Early Neolithic EEF farmers who expanded into Europe from Western Anatolia, can be called "Levant-Anatolia" or maybe "Levant-Anatolia-Mesopotamia", while the one carried later by Proto-Indo-Europeans during the Copper Age (Eneolithic) and the Bronze Age, was a different admixture, it can be called "Caucasus-Gedrosia".
    I could just say ditto to Alan's post, but I'll reiterate for precision and clarity: the group that accounts for approx. 50% of Yamnaya ancestry and perhaps a little less of Corded Ware Ancestry is heavily Near Eastern farmer in terms of ancestry. These people didn't only go west, or northwest into Europe, and southwest into North Africa, and directly south into East Africa, they also went north and east to the Caucasus, and into Central Asia, and toward India. I've posted all the archaeological data showing that.

    We don't know yet precisely when or where, but at some point these farmer groups admixed with ANE. Maybe it happened north of the Caucasus, maybe south of the Caucasu. Maybe it happened relatively early as a sort of more eastern farmer group. Maybe it happened a few thousand years into the process but before they even reached the Caucasus. Maybe the admixture happened in the Caucasus. We don't know yet. We need ancient dna. This admixed group then made it into the Steppe. At least the farmer part and perhaps the whole admixed genome originally came from south of the Caucasus. (or also by way, perhaps, of Kazakstan)

    As to whether it was more "Georgian like" or more "Armenian like", as I said, I'll wait for upcoming papers. I'll also wait for upcoming papers to see how much of it was ANE and how much of it was original Near Eastern farmer.

    @Nobody 1: You've been gone a while. :) The big deal is because people have spent the better part of a year convincing themselves and trying to convince everybody else that there was massive admixing in Europe of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and Mesolithic European WHGs. The reality seems to be perhaps 10% initially (around the Danube Gates?) and then perhaps 10-15% (the paper will give us the details) over the next couple of thousand years.

    Ed. for clarity.
    Last edited by Angela; 10-10-15 at 21:21.


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    So, I was right CW (and modern Balts) had extra EEF compared to Yamna.
    Lovely :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    ...

    I don't know what to make of this slow drip of "Armenian like" genes into these steppe people over such a long period of time. I mean it starts 5200 BC all the way to 3000 BC. Are we supposed to think that even hunter-gatherers all the way up in Samara wanted Armenian wives so badly that they traveled all the way to the Caucasus or south Caucasus to get them? Or that there was some sort of long distance trade network in them? What could hunter-gatherers have given for them? Isn't it very unusual also for the woman's culture to come to predominate?

    Honestly, I'm stumped. Is it possible these mtDna lineages from the Near East had some sort of selective advantage? More fertility? H has more resistance to sepsis, doesn't it?

    ...
    Apparently mtdna has an influence on metabolic rate and cold climates so I wonder about selection, maybe there were HG clades that provided more body heat but at the cost of some negative side effect and as farming/herding spread it lost some of its competitive advantage.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3998521/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22929588

    What could hunter-gatherers have given for them?
    lumps of copper?

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    My guess...

    Yamnaya:
    - cos horses, spread around steppe as tribes and
    - cos copper, spread everywhere but as miner/metal worker minority not tribal invaders
    - second group acted as catalyst to majority populations they settled among

    Corded Ware
    - cultural son/brother of Yamnaya but
    - Corded Ware got access to bronze weapons first and
    - stomped Yamnaya and then spread over the steppe and south to India

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    My guess...

    Yamnaya:
    - cos horses, spread around steppe as tribes and
    - cos copper, spread everywhere but as miner/metal worker minority not tribal invaders
    - second group acted as catalyst to majority populations they settled among

    Corded Ware
    - cultural son/brother of Yamnaya but
    - Corded Ware got access to bronze weapons first and
    - stomped Yamnaya and then spread over the steppe and south to India
    You live in a dream wolrd. Corded Ware went never to the Steppes. There is no hg. I1, R1a-Z282 etc. in India. There're no haplogoups in South CentralAsia from Europe, but from the Iranian Plateau, like hg. R1a-Z94, J2a etc.

    So, what the **** are you talking about?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    March 2015 paper "Eight thousand years of natural selection" has recently been updated, with new samples as well as new figures included:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...16477.full.pdf

    Check Extended Data Figure 2 - it shows Anatolia Neolithic / WHG among Pre-IE populations, as well as Armenian Neolithic / EHG among IEs:

    Note: Anatolia Neolithic includes local HG ancestry absorbed by farmers in Anatolia. WHG is only what was later absorbed in Europe:

    http://s1.postimg.org/8s7j5xipr/EDF2.png


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    Is this for me? Yeah, I think that Europe was Indo-Europized from Yamnaya.

    But Indo-Europeans from Yamna who Indo-Europized Europe came from the Iranian Plateau.


    Yamnaya was already for a HUGE part West Asian itself!


    FIRST: PIE migrated from the Iranian Pateau into Maykop/Yamnaya horizon.
    SECOND: Folks from Yamnaya/Steppes migrated into Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    New samples include so-far the oldest R1a sample from the steppe (2925 - 2536 BCE):

    "Potapovka I, kurgan 5, grave 6
    Ÿ- 10432 / SVP42
    Potapovka I is an important cemetery of the late MBA or MBA2 Sintashta-culture era, but
    this grave shows that an older MBA Poltavka cemetery was located in the same place on the
    Sok River, in the transitional forest-steppe zone of Samara oblast. Grave 6 was dated 2925-
    2536 calBCE (4180 ± 84 BP: AA12569), centuries older than the MBA2 grave pit that cut
    through it, removing about 60% of the Grave 6 skeleton. Grave 6 was that of a male
    (confirmed genetically) age 35-45 years, his foot bones stained with red ochre, buried with
    the lower leg bones of a sheep or goat. His Y-chromosome haplotype was R1a1a1b2a (...)
    His MtDNA haplotype was U5a1c. Another Poltavka grave under kurgan 3 was cut through in
    the same way, so Potapovka 1 seems to have been established in the MBA2 directly on top
    of an older Poltavka cemetery."

    This is typically Indo-Iranic R1a-Z94, but it is as old as R1a from Corded Ware in Bavaria.

    ============================================

    It is from 2925-2536 BC, much older than the 2nd oldest sample from this area (2298-2045 BC):

    http://s21.postimg.org/d2640an07/R1a_Dates.png



    Yet still slightly younger than the oldest R1b samples from the steppe:

    http://s11.postimg.org/chf938e43/R1b_Dates.png


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    The light green color of Yanaya is at least 50% from the Iranian Plateau itself. So this graphs are really manipulative..



    R1a1a1b2a is not THAT old. MY Mesopotamian R1a* marker is older. So, I'm not impressed. They should research old bones on the Iranian Plateua, there're plenty of them. I'm sure they will fight really ARCHAIC R1a* and R1b* there...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is typically Indo-Iranic R1a-Z94.
    Nice, thanks!!! The known fact is that R1a-Z94 evolved in the Iranian Plateau. This is another evidence for me that folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Steppes and brought R1a-Z94, R1b and J2a with them!

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    The known fact is that R1a-Z94 evolved in the Iranian Plateau
    Known from what evidence? There are no ancient Z94 samples from that area so-far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Known from what evidence? There are no ancient Z94 samples from that area so-far.
    Because there are no ancient samples researched so far at all.

    Read Underhill et al., 2014 one more time: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786

    Most RECENT ACADEMIC study on R1a.

    According to the authors: "phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey"



    Iranian Plateau has MUCH more R1a-Z94 than the Steppes and even the Northern Caucasus. If Z94 came from the Steppes R1a would be alot more diverse in the Caucaus. But its NOT!
    Instead, Caucasus has more European (Slavic) R1a-M558. It is from the DIRECT interaction between Caucasus and the Steppes

















    R1a in West Asia is more diverse and ancestral to India. In Central Asia and India there's much more recent R1a which is dominant.









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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There are also ancient DNA samples of Srubna culture (6/6 = 100% R1a):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

    Males:

    Novosel’ki, Kurgan 6, grave 4 - R1a1a1b2, MtDNA type U5a1f2
    Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 17 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type J2b1a2a
    Uvarovka I, kurgan 2, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2; MtDNA type T2b4
    Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 11 - R1a1; his MtDNA type U5a1
    Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 5 - R1a1a, MtDNA type H5b
    Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 1 - R1a1a1b2a2a; MtDNA type H3g

    Females:

    Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 5 grave 7 - MtDNA type K1b2a
    Rozhdestvenno I, Kurgan 4 grave 4, skeleton 2 - MtDNA type I1a1
    Barinovka I, kurgan 2, grave 24 - MtDNA type T1a1
    Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 15 - MtDNA type U5a1
    Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 2, grave 1 - MtDNA type H6a1a
    Spiridonovka IV, kurgan 1, grave 6 - MtDNA type U5a2a1
    Spiridonovka II, kurgan 11, grave 12 - MtDNA type H3g
    Spiridonovka II, kurgan 1, grave 2 - MtDNA type H2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga
    folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Steppes and brought R1a-Z94, R1b and J2a with them!
    As for J2a. Goga - haplogroup J has just been found in Mesolithic Karelia, alongside R1a (!) - he was Eastern Hunter-Gatherer:

    From page 43 out of 46:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...16477.full.pdf

    "(...) In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals5 autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1). (...)"

    So we now have 3 samples of EHG hunters (2 from Karelia, 1 from Samara) and they had three different Y-DNA haplogroups:

    - J
    - R1b
    - R1a

    Yet, autosomally they were all very similar to each other!

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    Re #92: Minnesota has much more I1 than Alabama. But it doesn't mean that the Sioux had more I1 than the Creek.

    Modern populations =/= ancient populations. There have been numerous population replacements in the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for J2a. Goga - haplogroup J has just been found in Mesolithic Karelia, alongside R1a (!) - he was Eastern Hunter-Gatherer:

    From page 43 out of 46:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...16477.full.pdf

    "(...) In eastern Europe outside the steppe, a new individual from the Karelia region resembles the two previously published EHG individuals5 autosomally, but surprisingly belongs to Y-chromosome haplogroup J usually associated with Near Eastern populations (Supplementary Data Table 1). (...)"

    So we now have 3 samples of EHG hunters (2 from Karelia, 1 from Samara) and they had three different Y-DNA haplogroups:

    - J
    - R1b
    - R1a

    Yet, autosomally they were all very similar to each other!
    Yeah, this is getting very interesting. J is from West Asia.
    I did always believe that R1a came from Iranian Plateau and migrated into Europe.

    But I thought that it was before R1b & J2a entered the Steppes. And I still think it was the case. And now they found ancient J with R1a in Europe. These findings make my believes even stronger that R1a came from the Iranian Plateau. Or do people really think that J was NATIVE to Europe. That would be crazy…


    Assimilated folks originally from West Asia. Nothing more, nothing less..


    According to me the only true European haplogroups are C(ro-Magnon), N1c1, I1 etc...

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    Here is the link to new version of the paper (10 October 2015):

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...%3Fcollection=

    Or do people really think that J was NATIVE to Europe That would be crazy…
    There was not one European hunter population but two - WHGs and EHGs.

    As we can see WHG haplogroups were much different from EHG haplogroups.

    Eastern European Hunters were R1a, R1b and J. WHGs were mostly I and C.

    I wonder what subclade of J did that hunter belong to.

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    In post #88 I was mistaken about Potapovka I, kurgan 5, grave 6 being "the oldest" R1a sample from the steppe!

    I have not noticed this even older sample, until now:

    This is 7200-6000 years old Copper Age R1a from Saratov region in the Volga steppe, from Khvalynsk culture:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-R1b-together!

    What's more important - a sample of R1b was also found in the same archaeological site! R1a + R1b together.

    I guess this points to Khvalynsk culture as the original community of Proto-Indo-European speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture

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    Or do people really think that J was NATIVE to Europe. That would be crazy…
    Weighted more towards Central Asia imo like a more easterly version of I.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think so. I think the Haak et al paper specifically says "modern" Armenian like, not BaArmenian like.



    I don't think we know yet where "Basal Eurasian" hunter-gatherers mixed with UHGs. (We don't even precisely know yet how "Basal Eurasian" is defined, where it was centered, etc.etc. Hopefully, this paper will tell us.) Perhaps the admixture took place in central or northwestern Anatolia, perhaps it was in southeast Anatolia/north-central Levant. The first farmers to leave the Near East were the ones who set off from the area of southeast Anatolia/north-central Levant for Cyprus, and I don't know of any indication that they were appreciably different from the ones further up the coast. Time will tell, I suppose



    You mean the mid-to-late Neolithic that perhaps brought J2 and E-V13 to Europe 4700 BC? I think that's too late for pottery. These are some commonly accepted dates:
    PPN1:10,000 BCE to 8,800 BCE (Earliest sites perhaps Gobekli Tepe, then Levant sites
    PPN2: 8800 BCE to 6400 BCE
    PN: 6400 BCE

    Given those dates, I hope the paper goes into some detail about the archaeological setting of these 7000 BCE samples. By the time of Kumtepe, which Fire-Haired brought up, which is 4700 BCE (the same date when we find J2 and E-V13 in Europe) you're way into the Pottery Neolithic. Interestingly, if this source is correct, they were already using copper. (although no evidence of copper making) So, could this have any connection to the appearance of copper working in the Balkans?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe

    I would advise caution, however, as I'm not sure about the reliability of Wiki as a source.

    I also think we have to be cautious about assuming that the authors meant that the Kumtepe sample was different because it had ANE. So far as I know the paper hasn't been published, and the genome hasn't been published. Perhaps it's more southerly gene flow in place of, or in addition to, ANE, which would make sense if E-V13 is not Mesolithic in Europe but came later from the south.

    (Just parenthetically, from reading up more on Kumtepe, this whole Troad area was considered the "Aegean world" by 4700 BCE, not really the "Anatolian" world. That has implications genetically as well.)



    From south of it originally and/or as I've been saying for years, from the direction of Kazakstan, which had experienced its own genetic flow from the south.


    Georgians are a modern population with ancestry from the north. Armenians are also a modern population, of course. However, the Reich Lab has access to and is probably quite far along in analyzing all sorts of ancient samples from the Caucasus and beyond. If Lazaridis is still calling the admixing population "modern Armenian-like", I'll stick with that until the Lab publishes something that changes it.



    I could just say ditto to Alan's post, but I'll reiterate for precision and clarity: the group that accounts for approx. 50% of Yamnaya ancestry and perhaps a little less of Corded Ware Ancestry is heavily Near Eastern farmer in terms of ancestry. These people didn't only go west, or northwest into Europe, and southwest into North Africa, and directly south into East Africa, they also went north and east to the Caucasus, and into Central Asia, and toward India. I've posted all the archaeological data showing that.

    We don't know yet precisely when or where, but at some point these farmer groups admixed with ANE. Maybe it happened north of the Caucasus, maybe south of the Caucasu. Maybe it happened relatively early as a sort of more eastern farmer group. Maybe it happened a few thousand years into the process but before they even reached the Caucasus. Maybe the admixture happened in the Caucasus. We don't know yet. We need ancient dna. This admixed group then made it into the Steppe. At least the farmer part and perhaps the whole admixed genome originally came from south of the Caucasus. (or also by way, perhaps, of Kazakstan)

    As to whether it was more "Georgian like" or more "Armenian like", as I said, I'll wait for upcoming papers. I'll also wait for upcoming papers to see how much of it was ANE and how much of it was original Near Eastern farmer.

    @Nobody 1: You've been gone a while. :) The big deal is because people have spent the better part of a year convincing themselves and trying to convince everybody else that there was massive admixing in Europe of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and Mesolithic European WHGs. The reality seems to be perhaps 10% initially (around the Danube Gates?) and then perhaps 10-15% (the paper will give us the details) over the next couple of thousand years.

    Ed. for clarity.

    a metric surveys about Neolithic people (Pinhasi) mentioned that two early neolithic wave occurred into South Europe, the first one maybe come from more Southeastern parts (North Crescent) and maybe by sea; the survey concluded that, even if countaining some within variability, the populations of Neo Nikomedia (Greece) and SKC cultures shew strong similarities with the Southcentral Anatolia settlement of Catal Höyük, itself maybe a drifted subpopulation, in any case neatly different from the the PPNB diverse populations more East or more South, themselves not too homogenous, and different too from other neolithic populations of Europe (highly heterogenous LBK of Germany and Cardial ones; we can infer the dominent type, not taxinomicly precised in the survey, was the old "danubian" type of old athropology, found even later in Anatolia but then mixed with new 'southern' types surely come later - in his survey, the Neolithic people of the Danube Gorge show very great differences too, I put on the count of stronger WHG imput - in short, Anatolia was not inhabited by similar groups in all its regions (Cayüna in East closer to Fertile Crescent poeple, homogenous or not -
    concerning Armenians of today, they have links with 'southwest-asian' or "bedawin" and also with Western 'mediterranean' (so EEF in part); the Steppes populations of Metals Ages seem having been without this EEF component, if I red well - and BA Armenians were different and closer to Steppes people - so if we accept the qualification of "armenianlike" with the modern meaning of the word, we can suppose the shared DNA is only the without-EEF one ?
    and what if Armenia received steppic DNA from North and not the contrary, what said some scientists even recently? the "southern" part of steppic people could have been picked earlier than the Metals Ages, and not by force from Transcaucasus?

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